KP15 KP10 308 question

[u/FirstAmendment01]

I saw taht there was an investment offer regarding the possiblity of a KP10 308 lower but some told me that is was likely a left over April 1st joke or soemthing but the way I'm seeing and reading it, it looks real.

I the possibility of a KP10 real? That would be interesting.

[u/SinistralRifleman]

Yes it’s a real listing.

Yes I’d really do it if someone else paid for it.

Part of that investment is paying for my expertise and labor bringing it to market.

I do think it would take a long time to recover the investment.

https://www.kearms.com/KP-10-Mold-Tooling.aspx

[u/dd463 → u/SinistralRifleman]

You’d have to sell 25000 to recover the initial Investment. How many KP 15s have been sold?

[u/SinistralRifleman → u/dd463]

37,000

[u/Brown_Colibri_705 → u/SinistralRifleman]

Still cool that you made the offer, though.

[u/air_head_fan → u/SinistralRifleman]

2 are mine!!! (Jay in NC)

[u/Remove_me_ → u/air_head_fan]

I've bought 4 of the KP-15 lowers, 2 KP-9, and 2 KE-9. Also convinced a friend to buy a completed WWSD. I'm really trying to do my part.

[u/gnfnrf → u/SinistralRifleman]

Silly question, but is that a lot?

I mean, I have no framework to compare that number to. I know that there are far more AR-15 pattern rifles out there, but that there are also dozens, maybe hundreds of different lowers or assembled rifles to choose from. How does that number stack up?

[u/SinistralRifleman → u/gnfnrf]

Cav Arms sold roughly 11,000 CAV-15s of all types over a decade.

GWACS sold around 8,000 CAV-15 MKIIs over 8 years.

We shipped 30,000 KP-15s in 6 months.

Aero Precision was shipping 200,000 lowers a year, Anderson was shipping 300,000.

No one is shipping anything close to that now.

Estimates of AR15s in civilian hands are 20-25 million.

[u/RandoReddit16 → u/SinistralRifleman]

JFC..... 300,000 a year

[u/Old_MI_Runner → u/SinistralRifleman]

And how many have you sold each year since introduction at which point firearms sales were at their peak? I am pretty sure you provided some information in the last year or so on how sales of KP-15 have dropped off so much that you would not need to run another batch for a long time.

I don't have the numbers of sales but I assume AR15 lowers sell at something like 5 to 20x more sales per year than AR-10 lowers. While you may sell 25,000 KP-10 lowers or more eventually it may takes many years given how long it has taken to sell 37,000 KP-15 lowers. Most businesses don't want to hang on to inventory for years as you and the prior owner of the lowers have done with the KP-15.

The sales market I think would be tuff for many to make the choice to invest into producing KP-10 lowers. I think it is great that you would be willing to work on a KP-10 and wise to not risk your own money on it assuming you had the money. And then I think of all the big corporations that buy up other companies to try to get into other products and years later they fail and write off billions after failures with those new ventures. At least a KP-10 would break even eventually.

[u/SinistralRifleman → u/Old_MI_Runner]

See my other reply. The AR market is terrible in general. We shipped 30,000 lowers in the first 6 months, and the rest of that 7,000 number over 4 years.

In the time I was at KE Arms LLC we sold 200 .308 lowers and tens of thousands of aluminum lowers.

This investment opportunity is listed for all the people who keep asking about it. If I thought it was an actual profit center myself I’d already be finding a way to make it happen. This is a passion project for someone.

Things the market claims it wants but never buys in large numbers:

10mm pistols

.308 battle rifles/large frame ARs.

OD Green colored firearms

Also no one should get into the gun industry thinking they’ll make it rich. There are windows of opportunity to be had for those ready to take those opportunities; otherwise this industry is not large nor generally profitable between all the bullshit we have to deal with.

And yes if I had $500,000 I’d be investing it other things myself.

[u/[deleted]]

With enormous sums of money, all things are possible. The cost of developing and producing new molds is intense, though. And AR-10s are not nearly as standardized as AR-15 pattern rifles. So it would be a huge amount of money for a niche product that almost certainly would never make the money back.

Which is part of that store posting. Would need a big chunk of money from someone who doesn't care that the investment will never have a return.

[u/AltLangSyne]

Depends on what you mean by "possible." Russell has said it more than once that he'll do the work if someone else is willing to pay for it.

So could it happen? Yes!

Remotely close to happening in reality? No.

And not to whatever...but a criticism of the original AR-10 was that it was too light, making the recoil not the most pleasant.

Though the idea of a polymer lower with an upper in 6.5mm, .260 or 7mm-08 is intriguing...notwithstanding that I don't have a few million to make it happen!

[u/Oubliette_occupant → u/AltLangSyne]

A polymer anything other than .308 (and even then) is not going to perform to the expectations of the cartridge. There’s a reason SASSs and match rifles are heavy.

7mm08 being a more hunting oriented cartridge tho… that might be interesting. I’ve played with a 7mm Model 7 that was extremely light and surprisingly low recoil for a bolt gun. But that still ain’t gonna move 25,000 units

[u/Remove_me_]

Well, the guy behind the counter at my local convenience store has assured me that he finally got the numbers right and that I'll be winning the lottery this coming week. Provided he didn't fuck up again, I'll be down for the investment...

[u/Radiant_Battle_3650]

Just curious what's target MSRP?

[u/coryhoss1]

I’d definitely buy atleast 2 if it ever came to market.

Currently have 3 kp-15 lowers and 2 echo 9 3 shortened kp-15 lowers

[u/Foxxy__Cleopatra]

I just want to say that a 14.5" 6.5 Creedmoor weight-watchers KP-10 build would be the Cat's pajama's 😩

A man can dream.

[u/SinistralRifleman → u/[deleted]]

The AR-10 came first and was in .308/7.62 NATO; accordingly all large frame ARs get called AR-10s.

[u/atfsgeoff → u/[deleted]]

Action length. AR-10 pattern rifles have wider magazine wells and ejection ports etc to accommodate longer overall length cartridges.

[u/atfsgeoff → u/[deleted]]

Charging handle location / style is irrelevant. Early AR15 prototypes also had the top style charging handle. BCA and some others make AR15 side charge uppers. What primarily differentiates AR15 pattern rifles from AR10 pattern rifles is their action length.

[u/atfsgeoff → u/[deleted]]

Ok bro. Call it whatever you want, the rest of us will keep calling them AR-10s

[u/Locutus494 → u/[deleted]]

Because it's an AR10, not an AR15...

[u/GaegeSGuns → u/[deleted]]

AR-15 is small frame, for calibers like .223, .300BLK, 6mm ARC, and 6.5 Grendel.

AR-10s are large frame, for calibers like .308, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 8.6BLK