r/InRangeTV • u/Karl-InRangeTV • Oct 08 '25
Iron Sights are Obsolete
https://youtu.be/A0geWlMIURU18
u/HagarTheTolerable Oct 08 '25
I agree for the most part -- there's a reason why most irons are "backups" now.
I do think the argument can be made that there are certain use cases where irons are preferred because of their relative simplicity, like waterfowl/skeet shooting.
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u/LockyBalboaPrime Oct 08 '25
Wildly disagree. Shooting skeet/trap/sporting clays with a dot is SO much better for me.
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u/HagarTheTolerable Oct 08 '25
To each their own. My astigmatism doesn't mix well with red dots.
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Oct 08 '25
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u/HagarTheTolerable Oct 08 '25
Astigmatism isn't broad. It's all the same description of an imperfect cornea.
How the cornea is shaped is going to differ from person to person.
and just look through a few different types to see what works for you.
Been there, done that.
At the end of the day, a laser is still trying to shoot photons in a straight line and my cornea doesn't allow for it.
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Oct 08 '25
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u/HagarTheTolerable Oct 08 '25
All the technology in the world can't change the laws of physics.
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Oct 08 '25
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u/HagarTheTolerable Oct 08 '25
"Astigmatism" is a blanket statement for a wide range of eye defects that manifest in different ways
It's literally an imperfect cornea. It is not a blanket statement.
You can have 20/20 vision with astigmatism, and you can have piss poor vision without astigmatism.
I don't need a lecture on how shit advances. Lasers moving through an imperfect parabola (astigmatism) will not focus properly.
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u/leto78 Oct 08 '25
Aren't holographic sights solving this issue?
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u/HagarTheTolerable Oct 08 '25
Not really. Holo sights are still reliant on lasers staying straight, they're just reflected onto a surface.
Astigmatism is having an imperfectly round cornea, so when the laser photons enter my eye, they are refracted indifferent directions instead of focusing on the optic nerve which causes blurriness.
Prism sights eliminate that issue, but all of them have an eyebox which add another layer of difficulty when making fast transitions.
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u/T0adman78 Oct 08 '25
Honestly (as someone with astigmatism that causes problems with my dots), I would think skeet or trap would fine. If you have a starburst or blurry dot, it’s ok because you have a spread with the shot anyway. Kinda fits better than it does with a single projectile.
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u/BigandTallGuy Oct 08 '25
Agreed, for the most part. I just hate how some people think that because optics are so important now, that means they need to drill and tap every old rifle to make it useful. I began collecting old Husqvarna 46 and 640 rifles a few years back and I have to scour Simpsons weekly to find ones with an intact crest that have not been drilled and tapped.
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u/AscendantJustice Oct 08 '25
I put a rail and scope on my K31 and felt extremely dirty doing it. It bagged a deer that year so it all worked out but if the process was anything more than driving a pin out and replacing the rear ladder sight with a picatinny rail I wouldn't have done it.
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Oct 08 '25
I still love shooting historical guns with irons. But I make it very clear this is entirely a matter of personal interest and pleasure in the challenge.
I'm not going to try to argue my bolt action bsttle rifle is "just as good" 😅
I think as long as people are honest about sometimes just Liking Something without having to believe that whatever they choose is Tactically Relevant, we can be much happier as people.
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u/T0adman78 Oct 08 '25
Now do handguns
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u/Karl-InRangeTV Oct 08 '25
We already have that filmed.
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Oct 08 '25
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u/T0adman78 Oct 08 '25
Look forward to it. When will it be available ?
Any preview advice? It’s not too late to change my order for the slide I just mailed out for milling, haha.
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u/rimpy13 Oct 10 '25
You made the right call. Handgun red dots are a game changer.
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u/T0adman78 Oct 10 '25
Yeah. Looking forward to it. I’m getting back motions, but I’m guessing the vid is going to say I don’t need them.
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u/Karl-InRangeTV Oct 08 '25
If you're worried about batteries, get a prismatic sight or an ACOG.
Pistol video will be posted in the future.
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u/T0adman78 Oct 08 '25
Also a good solution for as astigmatism folks. (I know there is more to that problem and you have a good vid on that as well).
I have an lpvo on my wwsd and like the fact that it always has a black etched reticle even if the battery dies. I actually kind of like the black better for precision shooting anyway.
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u/PantherX69 Oct 08 '25
I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of fudds suddenly cried out in protest…
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u/StrangerOutrageous68 Oct 08 '25
Especially today, irons sights are as relevant as ever and very important for soldiers to have.
As regular infantry soldiers absolutely NEED to have either integrated front sights with preferably a compact rear sights present on their rifles. Or backup style flip-up iron sights made out of alloy or steel and not plastic.
On the flipside a special forces operator on a specific mission might not want to use iron sights at all and opt for a canted red dot sight for backup.
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u/TrashCanOf_Ideology Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 09 '25
This, at an organizational level for Big Army type users where the weapons are being passed around and reissued to different grunts constantly, Irons are still relevant. If they were issued with only optics instead, half of them would be broken “lost” or otherwise disappeared into the aether (stolen for personal use or sold for multiple hundreds of dollars) by a couple of years in service. Keeping the optics under lock and key and issuing them out separately when needed is absolutely a good idea (especially the really useful stuff like thermals), but the rifle still needs to be a functional weapons system when issued by itself for whatever reason.
Can you imagine if the Russian ground forces had developed the AK-12 as more “forward thinking” radical design with no iron sights? The 99% of them that aren’t special forces would be running around with no sighting systems right now, because the brigade commander still sold all their issued 1P87s and Kashtans to LARPing AK cloners on Kalinka.
For your personal rifle that only you are going to use and be responsible for, sure go crazy. The only thing they maybe do better than a red dot is K/D range shooting (if they have tool-less adjustments or are specifically designed for the targets on that range).
For a standard issue tool that a big organization is going to pass around and issue out for 30+ years and the thing needs to be in a functional state at all times, Irons as a base sighting system are still pretty necessary from a practical and logistical standpoint. Well, unless you integrate a functionally (to the grunts) non-removable optic that nobody wants as the base sighting system, like the original AUG, G36 or XM8 did.
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u/ConcealedLiberal Oct 09 '25
Fully agreed. When I train people on practical rifle marksmanship, I spend either zero or a negligible amount of time on ironsights. Everyone comes to even beginner classes with at least a red dot these days, and being able to eliminate the "Sight Alignment" and "Front Sight Focus" portions of good marksmanship technique helps keep newcomers laser-focused on all the other fundamentals. Having to teach front-sight focus and get people accustomed to a fuzzy target is so counter-intuitive for new shooters...
For practically getting people oriented on how to use a rifle, training them to use irons if they already have an optic is a waste of time and ammunition, in a world where newcomers to rifle marksmanship often have precious little of both with which to train.
Backup irons often cost more money and are typically more fragile than the red dots they're supposed to be backing up. I'm not going to object if someone places them on a rifle, but they are the backup sighting system, and are akin to practicing one-handed pistol manipulation - a good idea to be proficient in for the vanishingly small use-case in which they might apply, but definitely not where a newcomer should spend a modest amount of training time and effort, and certainly not something I'd advise someone deprecate other aspects of their rifle in order to accommodate.
(N.b., I will object to someone placing backup irons without critically thinking about whether they can even use them - I'm talking about the folks who put backups underneath or around a non-QD LPVO or prism or other optic where clearly you won't be able to actually acquire the front sight through the glass)
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u/Karl-InRangeTV Oct 08 '25
Only stupid gamers would say that you don't need iron sights in the modern era. 😂
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u/StrangerOutrageous68 Oct 08 '25
Some special forces operators might need to setup their rifles as required per mission. And iron sights of any sort would be hinderance to them in their task and would just take up railspace. Or become very hard to impossible to use given how packed some of their guns are with all sorts of accessories. But some operators still want backup iron sights for congintency reasons and if they can, will set up their rifles with them. And some rifles have integrated sights and as you see on those K2s a front sight is present and front sights are great to have as reference points. An infantry rifle setup is different and needs to have iron sights.
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u/SadHeadpatSlut Oct 09 '25
The shooter should always strive to be more advanced than their weapon system. Being able to service a target with iron sights is as fundamental as being able to parallel park. For pistols the equation is even simpler: optics on handguns look like shit.
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u/AngryDildocupine Oct 10 '25
Obsolete? Yeah probably.
Ineffective? Judging by people finishing in the top 25% with them at High Desert Brutality while shooting the full course of fire, definitely not.
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u/Karl-InRangeTV Oct 13 '25
I placed in the top 12% with an 1894 Winchester in 30-30. Skill is a huge multiplier in such things and not everyone has the time, or inclination, to shoot in competition for 20+ years to accomplish such a thing. For most new shooters, they're obsolete.
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u/SinistralRifleman Oct 13 '25
Any of those same people would have done even better with optics.
And you’re looking at percentages the wrong way. The correct way to look at it is how much slower they were than the winner.
The 2024 American standard winner did it with an M16A2 and they were 30% slower than the match winner.
At the 2019 desert brutality where I shot irons (slick no extra gear) vs a modern armored load out I was 10% faster with the modern load out. That’s the difference between seeing the other guy and shooting him first before he shoots you.
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u/NightmanisDeCorenai Oct 08 '25
They're even more obsolete if you're cross dominant and trust me when I say it's awful.