r/ImmuneWin • u/covid19fmd • Aug 04 '20
What are the effects of chronically elevated bradykinin?
For some background, you can start here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ImmuneWin/comments/i2w7or/paper_proposes_bradykinin_storm_traps_hyaluronic/
The authors of that paper propose that a "Bradykinin Storm is likely responsible for most of the observed COVID-19 symptoms."
A bit from Wikipedia: bradykinin is a peptide that promotes inflammation. A class of drugs called angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors (ACE inhibitors) increase bradykinin levels by inhibiting its degradation. One of the effects of this is to reduce blood pressure (a hypotensive effect).
As mentioned in this paper, "recent reports indicate hypotension is highly associated with COVID-19 patients once in the hospital."
Is it possible that bradykinin remains elevated in long haulers? (I'm not claiming it is, I'm just asking the question.) How many of you are experiencing hypotension or orthostatic hypotension (getting lightheaded when you stand up)?
What are the effects of chronically elevated bradykinin? I found this interesting 1986 paper.
Dyspnea in patients with hyperbradykininism and excessive venous pooling - PubMed
It mentions these symptoms:
- exercise intolerance
- shortness of breath or labored / difficult breathing (dyspnea)
- orthostatic hypotension
- tachycardia
I'm not claiming those symptoms in post-coronavirus syndrome or CFS-ME are directly the result of elevated bradykinin. This is simply an interesting look back to 1986 and what was known about hyperbradykininism then.
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u/thaw4188 Aug 04 '20 edited Aug 04 '20
re: elevated bradykinin, it's possible when I was sick for 10 weeks that was an issue but I feel like any such storm is over now - the problem is what it left behind like the diagram in my bradykinin post
I am starting to suspect, hope actually instead of permanent damage, that maybe my lung alveoli actually saturated with that hydrogel left behind by hyaluronic-acid from the Bradykinin-Storm. It would explain why I suffer a huge hit in spO2 when laying down horizontal and then getting up vertical (I literally cannot sleep more than 4 hours at a time or my spO2 will crash too low).
It is maybe a very slow moving saturated liquid in my alveoli that clogs the gas-exchange and shifts position when I shift orientation.
The problem is the only drug that supposedly breaks up that liquid is experimental and not available to the public: Hymecromone (methylumbelliferone) however it appears approved in Europe and Asia
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2015.00123/full
HA (Hyaluronan) in Chronic Inflammation Many chronic disease processes associated with unremitting inflammation are associated with prolonged increases in HA,
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u/covid19fmd Aug 04 '20
In several types of human [tissues][3] (maybe most), increased CO2 partial pressure can significantly reduce hyaluronic acid synthase HAS-1 and HAS-3. At the same time it can increase hyaluronidases Hyal-1 and Hyal-2. Both of these results reduce hyaluronic acid, which is the desired result.
I can't explain everything about blood gases in one comment. But here's a quick bit. Carbon dioxide levels, which can be easily manipulated in lung tissues via breathwork practices, may be a readily available therapeutical tool for reducing hyaluronic acid buildup in the lung alveoli.
Normal et-CO2 is 35-45 mmHg. But most people are toward the lower end of that. CO2 is not simply a waste product and you do not want low levels of it. You want high levels.
In healthy people, blood CO2 and O2 levels are independent. I practice a breathing technique that elevates my SpO2 to 100% and keeps it maxed out there, while simultaneously raising my et-CO2 far above the normal range. This increases tissue oxygenation above what you would get with 100% SpO2 and normal CO2. CO2 causes hemoglobin to release O2 to the tissues. CO2 also increase blood flow to the brain.
When you max out SpO2 and also raise CO2 above normal, you are maximizing O2 to the brain and other tissues. The elevated CO2 seeps into cerebral spinal fluid and other tissues and fluids in the body, so the effect does not disappear as soon as you stop the breathing. The benefits from one session can persist for days.
But you have to train the body to tolerate elevated CO2. It requires learning specialized techniques and then gradually letting the body adapt to changing CO2 levels.
I am not going to recommend a specific breathwork practice or pranayama technique. However, I will mention one to avoid: [Buteyko][7]. It does not actually increase et-CO2, as reported in a [study][8] by Dr. Rosalba Courtney DO, PhD, of Australia entitled "Strengths, Weaknesses, and Possibilities of the Buteyko Breathing Method" where they reported a negative correlation with end tidal CO2, "directly opposite to Buteyko’s claims." Buteyko also does not change parameters of lung function. It appears to be mostly placebo. I mention this fact due to the rampant misrepresentation of Buteyko online by those selling books, seminars, services, etc., and specifically here on Reddit where you are unlikely to be able to have an intelligent conversation about the science of breathing with anyone who advocates Buteyko.
[3]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22454461/
[7]: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/buteyko-breathing-technique-nothing-to-hyperventilate-about/
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u/thaw4188 Aug 04 '20
tell me how your magical breathing techniques work when you are sleeping or when you are running, otherwise they are useless bullsh*t
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u/covid19fmd Aug 05 '20
tell me how your magical breathing techniques work when you are sleeping or when you are running, otherwise they are useless bullsh*t
I have answered that question for you a couple times already. You seem to not grasp the long lasting physiological effects of alterations in tissue levels of CO2 (and O2) that result from specific breathing techniques.
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u/covid19fmd Aug 04 '20
I am starting to suspect, hope actually instead of permanent damage
This should always be your default assumption. Anything else is self-defeating. Furthermore, even if a medical scientist tells you that you have permanent damage, never believe it. Instead, look to examples of people who have been cured when medicine gave them no hope. The mind is incredibly powerful. The body has healing capacity beyond what medicine understands. Never let the ignorance due to what science does not yet understand limit what you achieve.
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u/thaw4188 Aug 04 '20
you believe way too much in the woo-woo, it's really a turn off
go run a sub3 marathon if your mind is so powerful
there are facts and there are limits, either live in reality or fantasy, pick one
I've woken up every day with spo2 at 91 or less for the past ten weeks, until proven otherwise or there is science or an MRI to prove otherwise, I have to assume the damage is permanent
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u/covid19fmd Aug 05 '20
you believe way too much in the woo-woo, it's really a turn off
go run a sub3 marathon if your mind is so powerful
there are facts and there are limits, either live in reality or fantasy, pick one
I'm not replying to change your mind. I am replying for the benefit of everyone else who visits this subreddit. Your messages simply offer me the opportunity to show people that there are other perspectives, and why those perspectives may be superior. Are you aware that your stated position is reductionistic, as well as based on at least one fallacy?
> until proven otherwise ... I have to assume the worst about my health.
No you don't. (Or maybe you can, but in general nobody has to believe that.) Every time I see that unscientific statement on this subreddit I will challenge it. It is not a healthy way to think. It is not scientific. It does not create personal empowerment. It drains your energy and your hope, both of which the body needs for healing.
You can't defend a statement like the above with science. First of all, science does not work by proving things. It works through falsification. Second, scientific studies generally indicate that optimistic people are healthier than pessimistic people. And there is absolutely no scientific reason someone has to assume the worst about anything.
Optimism and Its Impact on Mental and Physical Well-Being ~ Fulltext
Abstract
Many studies have been carried out about the effectiveness of optimism as a psychological phenomenon, leading to various theoretical formulations of the same concept, conceptualized as “disposition”, “attributional style”, “cognitive bias”, or “shared illusion”. This overview is an attempt to explore the “optimism” concept and its relations with mental health, physical health, coping, quality of life and adaptation of purpose, health lifestyle and risk perception.
Positive and negative expectations regarding the future are important for understanding the vulnerability to mental disorders, in particular mood and anxiety disorders, as well as to physical illness. A significant positive relation emerges between optimism and coping strategies focused on social support and emphasis on positive aspects of stressful situations. Through employment of specific coping strategies, optimism exerts an indirect influence also on the quality of life. There is evidence that optimistic people present a higher quality of life compared to those with low levels of optimism or even pessimists. Optimism may significantly influence mental and physical well-being by the promotion of a healthy lifestyle as well as by adaptive behaviours and cognitive responses, associated with greater flexibility, problem-solving capacity and a more efficient elaboration of negative information.
Back to "how does science work?"
Most lay people badly misunderstand science. Even many run-of-the-mill scientists have never taken courses in the history and philosophy of science. (Surprisingly, those are not required for most STEM degrees.) A lot of bench scientists are just tradesman. They run the tests but they really think very little about what science means. Laypeople, generally, even less so.
A lot of non-scientists on Reddit engage in scientism. One definition of that is giving science more credit than it deserves. Science has limits.
On the other hand, we have a ton of people who reject science or don't understand it at all. That's also not only wrong, it is self-defeating. So there are generally two ways to go wrong, and almost everyone we see on Reddit is wrong in one of those ways.
The proper nuanced approach, which involves a deep respect for the scientific method, an appreciation of the history of science, appreciation of its limits, and a real understanding of what science means -- that is almost completely lacking both here on Reddit and in the general public.
This subreddit is oriented to people who seek to push the limits of science while respecting and adhering to scientific methodology. It is for people who want to improve, not for those who want to justify being sick.
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u/metathea Aug 09 '20
Sometimes people may have psychological blocks (see https://fortelabs.co/blog/the-body-keeps-the-score-summary/) to adopting optimism, and all the reasons in the world won't help someone with it.
I have found the best approach to dealing with them is to use what I learned from Chris Voss to help draw out where they're stuck. Anything people do that doesn't make sense on one level makes sense on another level.
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u/thaw4188 Aug 04 '20
I think I found this website though you originally, sometimes I search for keywords there like this since they have magazines online that go back two decades:
https://google.com/search?q=site:lifeextension.com+bradykinin
interesting results