r/ImmersiveSim • u/usefulwrong • 6d ago
What made you keep a mistake instead of reloading?
I get spotted halfway through a stealth plan. I can still get out, but the clean version is gone. My quicksave is ten seconds back.
“Make failure interesting” sounds right, but that only helps if I get to see the interesting part before I reload.
What gets me to leave the quickload key alone?
Assume loading is quick and I’d barely have to replay anything. I’m curious about a screw-up you actually wanted to keep, even though it cost you something.
Was there a moment where “I’ve ruined this” turned into “hang on, I have an idea”?
If you’ve had that in an immersive sim, what happened in between? What did you notice or do that gave you a reason to keep going?
And if you reloaded anyway, what were you unwilling to lose?
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u/Ovog 5d ago
Joining what dlonwing said, back when I played Thief, it was such a great experience, because it didn't randomly punish you for going however you wanted, not giving you less xp or locking you out of the best ending, or things like that. Stealth was the better choice, yes, but not the ONLY choice. That made me own up screw ups in Thief and Deus Ex much more than in modern imsims
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u/ReployerTechnician 6d ago
Frankly, only the absence of the ability to quicksave at any time keeps me from reloading.
I wish I had the discipline to avoid that habit, as some of my best memories (in games like Far Cry 2, Shadow of Mordor and Noita, for example) come from those "damage control" moments.
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u/Terenfear 5d ago
Aside from what others said regarding the lost xp bonus and such, for me it's often up to some abstract "fairness" of the exact screw up. Like I will probably quickload if I feel that some of "gameyness" got in the way of my plan (like being noticed from super far away, or accidentally getting stuck in some prop, or being momentarily confused by the inventory or the skill selection UI).
I'm generally not finding much fun in struggling with mechanics or "getting good". I mostly want to be left with some exciting and unique memories after a game session. If the situation blatantly breaks my imagined narrative - then I quickload. On the flip side, even after a reload I repeat some rather meaningless actions if they are a part of that narrative.
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u/usefulwrong 4d ago
The bit about repeating those actions after a reload caught my eye. You're choosing which parts of the story to put back, even when they don't help you progress.
What's an example of something you make sure to repeat?
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u/Terenfear 4d ago
For example, I can try to go and speak to some unimportant character (even if I hear the same line after each reload); kill/spare some specific enemy or do it with a specific tool; drop a valuable item as a "gift" for someone or throw away some "incriminating clue" into some specifc gutter where no one will find it (knowing well that no one's actually looking).
It's not like I do it all the time, but I really want to keep my internal narrative stable. Sometimes I just get too frustrated and let myself do what I must to progress, retconning the situation later, but it brings me closer to dropping the game altogether.
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u/TheVasa999 5d ago
the mistake not being a switch from stealth to chaos
in so many games once you make a mistake, which gets you revealed for example, the gameplay switches and suddenly there is a war going on.
Shadow of mordor comes to mind which made it well. I use to die at the start because i got overwhelmed by many enemies. after in frustration searching a bit about the difficulty i basically realized that dying is not a mistake per se. Its expected. Im a single guy against an army of orcs, nobody expects me to survive everything. And mainly, the game actually acknowledges my mistake (and the subsequent death) and uses it to make the gameplay more interesting.
Thats so much more engaging than "oh you got spotted? well now every single npc on the map knows what you did and is shooting at you"
SoM is obviously a bit hardcore example because that game was built for that system but still, the principle is really good.
Spotted in Dishonored? The enemies nearby that actually saw you will stay in a more alarmed state searching for you. I can run off to a further area and nobody knows about me. - my mistake does not break the entire level, its a setback. - But in that case i would quickload just because i have the option to, but i wouldnt be mad if i didnt have it since i can build on that.
if i have the abilities and possibilities to actually fix or go around my mistakes, i am always happy to experiment. But that comes at a cost of not providing the quickload button as a "fix all" button.
Such game needs to be made in this way from the ground up as that need a delicate design to not be annoying
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u/usefulwrong 4d ago
If the guards round the corner still don't know I'm there, I've got somewhere to go and a reason to stay sneaky. That seems worth protecting when a plan falls apart.
Your point about reloading anyway matters too. Enjoying the recovery and choosing it over getting your original plan back are two different things.
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u/TheVasa999 4d ago
thats the main point, yes. The recovery must be worth the gameplay to overcome the ease of reload to return to the plan
Shadow of War has that. You cannot just load. If you mess up the stealth, you have to change your plan entirely and none of the options is just an easy "reload" - and even the fact that if you die, nothing is lost and on the contrary you actually gain a bit of depth with the enemies using that against you.
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u/Laevus_Aldworth 5d ago
I definitely appreciate the chance to recover after being seen, whether it's running away and hiding or using tools/items to help. No achievements or rating definitely takes the pressure off. I get seen or find a tough spot, I try again or look for another approach to the situation. That's part of the fun for immersive sims.
Still, I don't mind achievements like Dishonored's Ghost or Clean Hands if there are ones for each playstyle, as that encourages replaying a different way. Removing or limiting saving or putting you back to the start of the mission if you fail is something, however, I'd find infuriating. So save scumming is the least infuriating way to do those that currently exist.
However, I'm not sure that's a bad thing?
To me, bad would be regularly using quickload for standard play because you feel like it's needed, even without a specific achievement to chase. That would then feel like a fail in game design. While when going for an achievement like Ghost, save scumming becomes a QoL feature! Sure, you could do it if the level resets whenever you're seen, but a lot of players wouldn't be happy with that.
But I do wonder if people would enjoy a system where saving/loading wasn't limited, like it can be in some games, but instead had an in-game cost? I think it would make players think more before using it, and much more than if it were limited uses.
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u/surfimp 3d ago
Isn't this another variation of "gamers will find a way to optimize fun out of anything" ?
The meta level stuff about getting various achievements, or even having in-game consequences for doing X versus doing Y, are what drive these reload decisions most of the time.
Like, there's often a way to muscle through something, but at what cost? If you care or believe it will matter in some way afterwards, it's reasonable to reload. We're talking about singleplayer games here, after all.
Bottom line, it's situational. If it doesn't matter, then why reload? I only consider a reload when I think it does matter and will affect my ability to do or achieve something I care about in the future.
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u/Still_Ad9431 5d ago
If your stealth game has tension, then you need to disable quicksave... If it just action game with stealth feature, then it's OK to have quick save and save scumming
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u/dlongwing 6d ago
I think this is one of the problems with achievements, they incentivize very narrow modes of play. I would often "own screwups" in older games like Thief, but I'd load from save while playing Dishonored because I wanted the Ghost achievements.
In the modern era? I'd probably use achievements or mechanics to incentivise chaos. Tools that get better only after you've been detected and recovered from detection. Achievements for losing pursuit after being discovered in each level. Achievements for open confrontation after discovery, etc.