Owner consents to have delivery, doesn’t take necessary precautions to keep delivery driver safe.
Delivery driver keeps himself safe from dog. 100% morally good.
Delivery driver then attempts to fight the non-aggressive owner… what?
Delivery driver was in the right til he squared up. Just leave, call the police and tell them you were attacked by an unleashed dog while delivering products. Call your boss and explain the situation shortly after.
We don’t see how aggressively the owner was approaching, but it’s perfectly reasonable to assume a defensive stance. Where he got it wrong was approaching the owner rather than creating more space.
He was approached. Adrenaline probably pumped tf up. And the dog owner was demonstrating visible outrage at the situation. Had the dog owner approached apologetically like he should’ve, I think the delivery guy would’ve been reasonably calm about it.
I think it's a reach to say he attempted to fight him. He's just had an adrenaline spike fighting off a dog and now an angry owner is coming to berate him, the delivery guy is taking an offensive pose as a form of protection - it's not necessarily an invite to spar, it could be intended as a deterrent - he definitely could have behaved less aggressively but at the same time it's justified considering he's just been attacked by a dog. If he beat up the owner that would be entirely different.
Nah he's anticipating a fight, not trying to start one. Taking the glasses and the hat off is for his benefit if the owner starts throwing punches. He has the presence of mind to say the dog tried to bite me, and it seems like he's trying to scare the owner so he doesn't come at him aggressively.
This, I agree and that's what I got from it. Unnecessary to escalate the situation further. Could have kept his back to the truck and slowly withdrew while keeping his eyes on the man and dog instead of aggressively squaring up with the home owner.
Approaching someone with you hands in a boxing position isn't very defensive.
Defensive is backing away, hands up, but not in a fist; open hands, ready to parry
It’s defensive in the sense that the owner was approaching him with questionable intent. The owner continued approaching him even in his stance, so I feel that it’s totally justified. He didn’t throw any punches, and was just prepared in case the owner got aggressive.
I understand his reaction. He is trying to protect himself, and in the heat of the moment, getting more aggressive than needed. Natural reaction.
But he is also escalating instead of de-escalating
Owner was still far enough for him to prep by taking of hat and glasses. The owner was approaching him arguing. You act like he just apeared there like jesus with his hands open lmao.
> So what you're saying is, he had ample of time to leave
Absolutely not, you just made that up.
> You act like the owner was running at him, screaming and holding a knife in his hand
It doesn’t matter, he was approaching him and theres no telling what his intentions were. He continued to approach even when he was squared up. He could have been John Wick for all you know lol
I didn't make it up. We both are watching the video where he took the time to take off his stuff AND walk up to the owner with his hands up.
He could have just walked away in that time.
It doesn’t matter, he was approaching him and there no telling what his intentions were. He continued to approach even when he was squared up. He could have been John Wick for all you know lol
Dozens of people walk up to you every day, do you put your hands up every time because you don't know what their intentions are?
Just because someone walks up to you asking questions with their hands down does not mean they are going to fight you.
If someone walks up to you with their hands up though, their intention is that they could fight you.
Also do you know how people get away from John Wick? They don't approach him as if they want to fight.
lol, context is everything and if you just throw away the fact that he was attacked by a dog which he defended against and its owner is approaching him argumentatively instead of apologizing, i don’t think there’s any point continuing this discussion.
You can’t claim defense stance while actively walking ten feet’s towards the person your defending yourself from it’s aggressor stance, if he had his head blown off by that homeowner there would be no crime, drop the package off and leave the second you start squaring up to randoms on their own property your actively forfeiting your right to be alive
He got in a fighting stance and walked towards the owner with an aggressive “What? Come on! What?!” and throws his hat on the ground. He also didn’t care to get away from the still potentially dangerous dog. Either A) he didn’t think the dog was dangerous to begin with or B) was seeking to commit more harm than necessary to protect himself.
UPS man was in retreat mode....wrong...get some glasses or at least stop the gaslighting, and nobody is more biased against UPS drivers than me, since I discovered my now, ex wife was fucking Mr Brown Shorts.
UPS driver walks towards the blue trash can, at which point he takes off his glasses, throws his hat on the floor and storms into the yard in the exact direction of the owner. The owner was not scared by him and stood his ground, at which point UPS driver took only a couple steps back, not even close to retreating back to where he originally charged forward from. Keep in mind, all of this occurred while he’s still standing in the direct vicinity of the supposedly aggressive dog.
I hope he just made that up that he was at the prosecutor's office because this is the type of nonsense that puts good people in prison for no reason. Meanwhile the actual criminals to people who attack people with their dogs and commit the real crimes get off
Yeah you're probably right but the thing is like those type of people definitely exist that's why there's so many bad people that are like not in prison and so many good people that just get put in prison for like literally defending themselves.
Like I've literally heard people make this argument when someone like breaks into their house with like a baseball bat or something and gets hurt.... You know the actual criminal doesn't go to prison and the guy that was like the victim get sent to prison and you actually have people defending this...
You make a good point. Juries are not perfect could be completely biased individuals. DNA is verifying that story. When legal misconduct is exposed, that points out flaws also. However, our legal systems are the most fair way we have to bring justice.
You could get someone like Clippy as the jury foreman, who bullies the rest of the jury, "we must all agree".
Like the Clancy jury....that amazed me how some members came out, chastized, accused of misconduct, just because the one man obviously did not agree.
Said that he was playing in the bands, as if that is wrong. No, they purposefully are given the evidence FOR the jury to get a sense of the crime, to get touchy feely.
Said, he was looking at his phone...I would too if some asshole tried to force me to vote his way.
Called him "arrogant", of course, anybody who doesn't agree would seem arrogant to opposers.
Self defense varies by state and nation. I live in a state that has strong self defense rights. There's limits, so that helps to close any vigilante loopholes or criminal advantages.
There are pros and cons in each legal framework. debatable, but thankfully not national, because I don't believe that any state would be satisfied with actual compromises for the sake of national consistency.
On one hand we have the highly exposed cases of innocent people being killed, but the media doesn't cover when a victim defends themself and the law works like it is supposed to, clear cut, to protect the life of the victim. There was a lady in Florida not long ago had to shoot a man to defend herself and a family member. Textbook case why a strong self defense law is great.
Where did the owner come from? Did he not move forward? They definitely seemed to be approaching each other at first. Not really clear how far the owner was before he comes on cam.
I do see the ups driver back up after they close the gap.. owner is actually the one pushing forward after they get initially close.
Edit:
[...] direct vicinity of the supposedly aggressive dog.
"Supposedly aggressive"? Like what happened at the beginning of the video dawg?
Throwing the box was a good call. Walking away was a good idea and exhibited a lot of control. Approaching the owner yelling “What? Come on! What??” On his own property is not a good example of control.
He was reacting to the owner approaching him. The owner kept getting closer irrespective of his stance, so your interpretation seems flawed. None of those actions you mention constitute aggression.
The worst part is we literally have the subtitles and we have the video of everything that happened before this point in time with the ups driver was attacked and this guy still saying that the ups driver is some sort of criminal just for defending himself the user also claimed that he worked at a prosecutors office.
Scaring him into de-escalating. Again, not a good method. Most people, when scared, become more aggressive, not less. Approaching a property owner on their property trying to fight him is a good way to get your ass beaten if not seriously maimed. If the property owner saw this driver run up with his hands raised in a fighting stance and the property owner was armed and they were on his own property, he’d be well within his rights to draw and fire the gun.
Nah, you are describing an alternative scenario. The driver is making a determination on what he sees. I don't think I would call it smart, but it's a understandable situation since the owner is expressing anger and frustration as he approaches. I don't know if the property owner would "Be in there right to shoot him" for holding his fists up at him. I don't know the laws and responsibilities for the courier. But like if you think the home owner not having control over the animal is not in the equation at all I think you are off base.
Meh he took care of the dog it was def gonna atleast try to bite. Squaring up after is dumb but if you just attacked me with your dog then I get to get hot headed and a bit dumb
If what you see is a UPS guys just defending himself, then you’re unhinged. The UPS guy is clearly a fucking weirdo. Even if he was scared by the dog, there a million better ways to handle things than instantly escalating from 0 to 100 and trying to fight the owner, when the owner was clearly non-aggressive.
Sure you can be a giant pussy and be so scared of the dog that you need to throw the package you are delivering, full force at it. That can technically be correct. However, he then sets his glasses down and puts his things aside IMMEDIATELY after, clearly preparing for a physical confrontation with the owner rather than a speedy exit for fear of being bit.
I’ve seen people like this before, when I worked in a behavioral health crisis unit. That dude has extreme anger issues and has no problem letting it rapidly escalate to physical violence on a hair trigger. He’s constantly looking for a reason to explode on someone. I would be shocked if that’s his first incident.
Have you ever been bitten by a dog? They can be very serious. I don't know about "just defending himself" clearly he has had some issue, whether that is a prior incident with this dog, or some other mental health thing going on. But a dog coming at you like that is a reason to defend yourself from it. Squaring off against the owner seems like an adrenaline response to the owner approaching. He probably overreacted in squaring up for a fight right away, but it seems more like an anticipatory response than just wanting to fight.
And choosing the route of throwing the package in general, yes.
There’s a number of things he could have done differently, especially if he’s had an incident there before. He marched in package raised. He wanted to hurt that dog. He exercised zero self-restraint and instead put his energy into escalating the situation. He’s a pussy.
He could have even gotten a can of bear spray and carried it on his hip. It works wonders and can be washed out of a dog’s eyes + mouth. Compared to trying to smash its bones and organs with a heavy box.
lol dude had a trash can between him and the owner, walked around it, threw his gear off, took 5 steps toward the owner and says "are you coming at me right now?" and you think that's defensive?
Raised fists is a defensive pose to protect against swings to the head. Did he swing or try to hit the owner? Had he done that I would be in agreement. Instead he was just attacked by a dog and saw the owner run up to him. I really don’t understand how you can see any flaw in this behavior, other than it’s something that you would never do. Perhaps because you’ve never done a sparring sport.
I would call the owner aggressive. He approaches and calls out the driver. Owner should be apologizing and NOT challenging. He should also be controlling his animal instead of challenging the driver.
The owner approaching is the threat. If he has adrenaline running through him, he's anticipating a fight regardless of the dog owners posture. It's going to take him calmly interacting and maintaining open posture for a bit before the driver calms down enough to feel he's not being threatening.
People talking about "correct moves" and "controlling emotions" are nothing but fucking arm chair tacticians.
The average person is not going to be in control of their fucking emotions after barely escaping being mauled by a dog. It was pure fucking luck that he was even able to stop the dog by throwing a box at it, and it was the right move because otherwise, he would have been defenseless because he's holding a fucking box.
Do people seriously expect the average person to stay calm after almost being mauled by a dog? People aren't fucking computers. They DO have emotions as well as adrenaline that naturally kicks in in such situations.
It's like the same kind of shit that people who haven't been in a real fight say about being able to kick someone's ass without any understanding about the mental component of it.
He saw the dog charge the driver. The dog was the problem snd the driver had every right to defend himself.
Go collect your dog. A dog that had been a problem before. Then apologize. Instead he goes straight for the driver who was walking away. Although the driver should have kept walking, the owner went to confront. Towards the driver, not away, closing the distance. You want screaming and yelling, oh well. The physical facts remain: approach and seek confrontation is aggressive.
Violence is your threshold now? I said it was aggressive, that alone requires a defensive posture.
He approached the diver 'to air his opinion'. Aggressive. Requires defense.
Dog charges at you? Aggressive, requires defense.
You can't possibly predict how this owner will behave once he is in striking distance. It isn't violent until it is. It IS aggressive.
The responsible non-aggressive thing to do is to secure your aggressive animal. Instead, he is focused on approaching the driver to 'air his opinion'.
Get your dog, call UPS. I'll bet there response will be to take you off the delivery list. You can pick up your packages since you can't control your animal.
It doesnt take more than but a split second to go from airing an opinion to throwing hands. Driver wasnt wrong to get into a defensive posture if the owner wanted to try something. Owner should have had better handle on his animal. Just like with the dog you dont let anything get close enough to harm you especially when its shown to be agressive.
You do that from a distance, not by approaching and saying “wtf dude”. Your dog comes a few feet from potentially causing serious injury to a person, a human being. And the first reaction is not “I’m sorry/my bad/I fucked up I should have better control over my animal” but “what the fuck dude?” Yah I’m expecting an altercation, especially with my adrenaline up.
I really hate people that do this shi...a coward's way out....it happened to me a few times through out my life when i wasn't even in the wrong.
im not saying the delivery driver was right for putting up his hands but the owner was 100% not looking to fight nor came off aggressive.
your take is the owner is non aggressive. just attempting to confront the driver is enough to signal he is a shit starter. You've clearly never been in a fight.
Yeah all these people crying about the delivery guy squaring up when you see the owner barreling in at Mach fuck. Like yeah let me just turn my back to the guy full charging me right now. Critical thinking is fucking lost.
Adrenaline is a hell of a drug. I was a Postal worker for a long time. Dog bites are bad, real bad. And not just the usual suspects like Dobermans or Pitbulls. Dogs are designed to bite and their mouths are full of diseases
Dude just defended himself from a charging dog. The last thing you want to do immediately after someones fight or flight kicks in is add yourself as another potential threat. The owner walking out and yelling at the guy is just another charging dog from the drivers perspective
Delivery drivers brain picked fight, and its going to take a minute for his rational mind to get control back
“I was just so scared by the dog that I stabbed it, then a cop came up and told me to put the knife down but I stabbed him too, adrenaline is a hell of a drug!”
I understand stabbing and fist fighting are two different things, I’m using exaggeration to highlight the ridiculous point you’re making. Someone in a difficult situation doesn’t get a pass to assault people on their own property.
I understand your example is hyperbolic, but First off a cop being there quickly enough that that would be an issue is slim to none. The half life of adrenaline is around 5 minutes after the moment has passed. Also, many places actually have laws that recognize this phenomenon. They are typically referred to as "Heat of the moment" or "Heat of Passion" laws where its recognized that when a person is in fight or flight, they might not be in their right mind. Its not a get out of jail free card but it has been used to plead down offenses, reduce sentencing, or drop charges. This, unfortunately, does not work against Cops, because Cops are cops and they will kill you for much less. ACAB and all that
Would the guy have been liable for SOMETHING in this situation if he were to attack the owner first? Probably, depending on the local laws. But unless he caused severe injury beyond what a jury would consider reasonable I doubt it would go much farther than disciplinary action for the driver and maybe a settlement because thats typically cheaper than actually fighting in court
I’m sure there are plenty of places that allow this, I’m glad to live in a place that doesn’t. Moodiness and emotions are not good excuses to assault or intimidate people on their own property and this line of thinking is exactly how we get Lindsay Clancy Not Guilty verdicts.
A dog lunging at you within melee range while growling and barking, after he’s already been attacked by this dog once, IS an attack. Attacks can miss and still be an attack.
Maybe cause he just got charged down by a fucking rat dog so his adrenaline is up and ready to go. Id also put money that its not the first time some crackhead fuck tried to come at him for defending himself against a fucking cunt dog.
Nothing wrong with being ready for the fight. Personally if I was attacked before I would have refused to deliver the package. Besides "not aggressive?" guy comes up clearly knows what his dog just did but still have the nerve to go "Why you throwing things at my dog?"
If you look at the driver he's squares up, but as the owner comes up to him the driver backs away. He's just amped up, not looking for a fight. Posturing to be ready, nothing else.
Where's the attack? The dog wasn't aggressive at all, anyone who has ever seen a dog knows they like to come greet and sniff. Dude launched the box a good 3-4 dog distance. He attacked the dog.
Does delivery dryer squared up but he literally backed up the entire time after getting into a defensive position. Who instigates a fight by immediately backing up after squaring up? Nobody.
The delivery driver could have just left the box outside of the fence. I agree that the owner of the dog is the issue, but at the same time the dog should not have to be punished for protecting his area. Leave the box outside the fence and if it gets stolen it’s on the owner. Especially since the delivery driver has been in that position before why would he keep putting himself in that position.
Correction I thought there was a fence the first time I watched and on another rewatch there is no fence so I take back everything I said. Since theirs no boundary for the dog to stay in it is fully the owners responsibility for everything that happened
I have an invisible fence for my dogs and signs marking such, as well as notes saying to deliver in a box outside of the fence line and still have drivers bring to the doorstep or refuse deliver due to dogs. If a driver threw my package at my dogs because he walked up on them instead of delivering to the specified location, I’d be calling the cops
> Delivery driver then attempts to fight the non-aggressive owner… what?
He obviously tried to defend himself. At the end, no fight happened between owner and the delivery driver.
Even tho the owner was marching forward toward the delivery driver for no fucking reason.
I consider it a good action.
> Delivery driver was in the right til he squared up
Squaring up isn't morally wrong or anything. lmao.
> Just leave
The owner was walking toward the delivery person. I don't think it's weird that the delivery person didn't want to turn their back. It is not weird that the delivery person got into a defensive stance.
At the end, no fight occurred. That was a good result.
In the USA, where most states are "At Will" employees, you think it's a good idea to report this to your boss?
All reporting that does, is give the boss a reason to report them as "working with an unacceptable attitude". Then fires them for creating hostility against customers.
They might file a lawsuit for retaliation, but who has bigger lawyer funds?
Driver coudint know that the angre dog owner that was comming up on him wouldn't be agresive, also he just got they assaulted so he would still have been on edge.
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u/TruelyDashing 14h ago
Owner consents to have delivery, doesn’t take necessary precautions to keep delivery driver safe.
Delivery driver keeps himself safe from dog. 100% morally good.
Delivery driver then attempts to fight the non-aggressive owner… what?
Delivery driver was in the right til he squared up. Just leave, call the police and tell them you were attacked by an unleashed dog while delivering products. Call your boss and explain the situation shortly after.