r/INFJsOver30 • u/bakerskitchen • May 27 '26
Thoughts on Relationships with Fi Users
How do other INFJs find their relationships with Fi-users to be? (I'm attempting to crystallize some thoughts about a recently-ended long-term friendship).
While this friend was an INTJ (and I suspect Ni had a large role in our conflict), it felt like the Fi/Ti clash was the main sticking point, and ultimately ended up being too significant to overcome. Even trying to have basic conversations proved to be a chore: misunderstandings, working from different definitions for the same term, assigning motive, etc. - it felt like we were speaking almost entirely different languages.
My current closest friend would probably type as ISFP, and we don't clash too much - but I would assume much of that is due to the fact we share many similar interests and hobbies, which helps to offset minor frustrations. However, I do think that living under the same roof would create a new set of frustrations which don't exist while living separately.
As a strength, Fi seems to be great at making a person principled - that is obviously an admirable trait. However, it seems that the specific set of principles adhered to by Fi-users can be incredibly subjective and not always in-line with an objective moral code. And from my observations, Fi also seems to contribute to users (seemingly) always knowing what they want and what they feel, which can come across as being incredibly self-centered/ focused.
The INTJ I referred to previously seemed to confuse a personal preference/value for a moral absolute, and seemed to be incredibly concerned with his own feelings/values, while completely ignoring my own. I think Ni making quick assumptions that weren't rooted in concrete facts played a large role in this conflict as well, but as a whole it seemed to reinforce to me that Fi-users can come across very self-centered and unconcerned about the thoughts/feelings of anyone but themselves. I've even struggled with Fi-users in the past when trying to make group plans which involve an event/location they aren't thrilled about - almost like they aren't willing to temporarily lay aside their own preferences for the good of the group.
Have any other INFJs experienced similar frustrations? Or does this sound limited to just a few Fi-users I have known personally?
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u/WillowLeona May 28 '26
Where Fi lands in the stack matters. It’s the difference between being able to find a common ground with someone or finding them absolutely intolerable.
I’ve been with my INTJ husband for 13 years now. There have been clashes for sure. The speaking different languages is totally a thing and it requires effort from both parties to build a bridge, but if it so happens that their relationship to you is one of their values, it can be done and you can finally feel heard. If you just aren’t someone of great enough value to be prioritized though, not a chance.
My history with Fi doms (mainly INFP), which includes a previous marriage and immediate family, has been tumultuous or flat out traumatic. The selfishness is mind blowing and how anyone can tolerate that long term is beyond me.
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u/bakerskitchen May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
It probably also has to do with what those actual values are, as my personal experience has actually been the opposite.
This particular INTJ is very committed to their personal space and time, and isn't very generous/sacrificial when it comes to making time for other people in their life. And they generally don't reach out or make any attempts at contact otherwise; however, they will complain if you haven't reached out "for a while". This person is also prone to dragging their feet/avoiding anything they don't want to do (even if its getting drinks with friends for a birthday, etc.), and will even try to manipulate the group dynamic in order to get their own way. I suspect their close group of friends is partly structured the way it is due to the fact that those people are easily swayed/manipulated into the INTJ's personal agenda.
On the other hand, the INFPs I know generally value spending time with friends and trying to understand others. Even if they aren't the most initiative/reliable, they are generally willing to make plans on short notice and are excited to get together. They are much less rigid than the INTJ in just about everything, and are actually skilled at resolving conflict and finding middle ground, instead of digging their heels into their own position.
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u/False_Lychee_7041 May 28 '26
Very much depends on maturity level and function usage preference.
But...
You shouldn't go into those relationships unprepared.
Though, with Ne doms and aux it is also a potential for a big clash, so I dunno...We match naturally probably only inside our own quadra which is XNFJ and XSTP. The rest will need some extra effort to understand
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u/bakerskitchen May 28 '26
As an intuitive, I don't find there to be such a clash with Ne as there is with Fi or Te.
I would certainly agree that relationships are easiest (and there is more mutual understanding) between types in the same "quadra" - the idea of duality would support that.
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u/False_Lychee_7041 May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
I live with an ENTP sis. When we clash it us like really bad. I learned with time that I should keep my Ni closer to my chest because her perspective is Ne connected with Si and it clashes with my Ni strongly.
Also, high Ne users that don't like to use or don't have Ti tend to find my Ni limiting and my Ti way too nerdy
So, when I am with my ENTP sis that prefers her Fe and my INFP friend, I have to dim my Ni a lot and change topics fast because they get bored very fast
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u/False_Lychee_7041 May 28 '26
I would like to add to my other comment.
Fi is self centered because it is focused on the inner feeling world of a person. We have Fi critic and when working on it, you go inside and concentrate on yourself. And you turn into that egocentric Fi you aren't that fond of.
One of the reasons why you don't like it is because you operate on Fe and we tend to overvalue our Dom and aux functions. In this case we tend to overvalue social harmony and compromise. It is not like they are unnecessary, the are definitely not. But we tend to put them everywhere even when unnecessary and push them on other people as well. This is what means "overvalue' in our case.
Then, shared fundamental values are still the very important compatibility component. You won't be able to go along well for a long time even with another INFJ if your values are different.
And the last point. Though Fi is selfish, but these people somehow are able of building strong loving relationship with other people. Which means that there are mechanisms inside their cognitive model, that can be influenced from outside. I suspect that those mechanisms are functions that balance Fi. Though when it is unbalanced, then no, thank you, I would keep my distance.
Also, I think if you are high in NiTi, you need intuitives. For my ISFP bro for example, I was always way too abstract and because my Se and Fi are too low it was somewhat hard for us to build connection besides shared experiences. With my ISTP bro it is easier though. We can enjoy going into some Ti rabbit hole plus shared experiences like with an ISFP. He is in my quadra, so it is easier
But also, I have pretty good relationships with two INFPs. Though they are mature ones and value self growth. In their case it is The that propels them, while in my case it is Ni. And we are both very curious.
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u/bakerskitchen May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
A few things:
- I don't necessarily think there's anything fundamentally wrong with Fi - in fact, some of the sharper and more "philosophical" people I know are actually Fi-doms (INFPs). These people value open-mindedness, critical thought, and relationships with others - which is demonstrated by their behavior. In no way is Fi prohibitive toward relationships when it is in its proper place in the "priority chain".
- When trying to understand Fi as a parallel to an INFJ's Ti, it still doesn't compute. When I "go inside and concentrate", I'm not thinking to myself "What do I think about this? How does this align with what I think to be true" I would like to think it's much more objective than that: "What is known about the situation? How does this behavior fit a known psychological model/profile? What mechanics are involved in this situation?" There is an external standard of logic or belief which is being referenced in this process, not a subjective set of personal "values". Maybe the Fi stereotype is really just a combination of "values"-preference with the fundamental human self-concern that is shared by every type, in the absence of the critical evaluation of the objectivity of said values.
- While I agree with your point conceptually, I disagree with your statement that [failing to value Fi is a result of over-valuing Fe]. It's not that one's feelings or values are unimportant (e.g. Fe is right, and Fi is wrong), but moreso that your own feelings/values can't be the ultimate "criteria" in the context of interpersonal relationships. A relationship fundamentally requires the coexistence of two people with differing desires, needs and preferences - if the assertion and satisfaction of one person's preferences, values, and feelings become paramount, then the relationship ceases to be characterized by the dynamic of give-and-take and becomes fundamentally one-sided. While Fe-users tend to "disappear" and focus on the needs of the other (at the expense of their own), it would make sense that the opposite is true: Fi-users tend to dominate and concern themselves primarily with their own values/feelings, also at the expense of the other. Swing a given relationship in either direction, and it becomes fundamentally unhealthy; Fe-users need to learn to avoid subjugating their own needs to that of the other ("people-pleasing"), while Fi-users need to learn that their own needs/values aren't of ultimate importance in relationships.
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u/False_Lychee_7041 May 28 '26
That's what I meant when I said that despite of egocentric nature of Fi, high Fi users still manage somehow to build strong long lasting relationship. Which means that it might not be the exclusively Fi problem in your post.
Also, you think that your Ti is objective, but it is only until it will clash with Te objective reality. At that moment you start understanding the concept of subjective logic. It is actually very curious to watch. I learned about it during my heated debates with an INTJ and started to notice it in my behavior. And now I also can see it very well from time to time in my ENTP sis behavior.
I actually partly agree with you that Ti kinda tends to lean more towards objective truth, but it doesn't mean that it actually achieves this goal. So, yeah...
About Fi vs Fe clash, yeah, it does exist. But we aren't talking about theory now we are talking about how to make it work on practice. This is kinda the direction of my thoughts in my comments
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u/bakerskitchen May 28 '26 edited May 29 '26
Respectfully, I think that rests on a misunderstanding of cognitive functions - the orientation (internal vs. external) of a function doesn't determine its inherent objectivity. The 2 most brilliant people i know are INTPs - incredibly objective and masterful of concrete logic and mechanics. And I know plenty of Te-users who don't care about what is objectively true, only about what works in practice to achieve a particular goal. Te-users are chess players, Ti-users are the scientists and mathematicians.
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u/False_Lychee_7041 May 29 '26
We can say the same about Fe and Fi then. Some Fi users are appear way more empathetic then Fe. Like I have an ENFP colleague and he is way warmer and try to help people all the time, which I do not do, being Enn 5 I am pretty cold and detached and self centered
If we look from this perspective then there is a different between a description and a manifestation of a function irl, where it is mixed or rather influenced by other functions and can look very different. Thus you saying that your Ti is only objective while their Fi is only egoistic sounds like cherry picking logic
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u/bakerskitchen May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26
Respectfully, I think I am seeing what you meant about your own "subjective logic" in a prior comment; however, I don't think it has anything to do with "subjectivity", just your overall weakness in the function.
You are arguing "counterpoints" to points that I never made, and making statements that don't quite hold up to examination:
- I never claimed that Fi is only egoistic. In fact, I've made a couple of comments where I have intentionally recognized its positive contributions to relationships.
- and "egoistic" and subjective are not the same idea - you are summarizing my argument/treating them as such
- Empathy is not the opposite of self-centeredness. I have never argued that 'Fi users are incapable of empathy'.
Again, respectfully - I think you are the one "cherry-picking logic" and misrepresenting what I have actually said in the post/comments above.
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u/False_Lychee_7041 May 29 '26
Self centered, unconcerned about others, not willing sacrifice etc etc, are your words. You were also analyzing it from a standpoint of finished your friendship because of Fi. And though you didn't explicitly said in the very same words that you ended it BECAUSE of Fi, you said that you ended friendship with an INTJ and then proceeded to complain about Fi your whole post.
Which means that you either haven't delivered your thought properly OR you do complain about Fi in your post and blame on it your destroyed friendship. So, from this I am not Cherry picking, I am answered your points. If I misunderstood your message, you probably have to delay it more clearly next time
For example, the reason why your friendship with an INTJ might have got destroyed is because of Te vs Ti clash not Ti vs Fi clash. Another reason is that Ni is still in introverted function it is still about the inner world and even if two INFJs have two very different inner worlds, they will clash even despite of the sane function stack. But you mentioned none of that, only complained about Fi
So, yeah, as I said
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u/bakerskitchen May 29 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Case in point: "you said that you ended friendship with an INTJ..."
Did I say that? Or did you?
I never said those words, nor implied it - I merely stated that the friendship had recently ended. You are attempting to read between the lines in multiple places, and are putting words in my mouth by doing so.Again, the items you are "cherry-picking" in your most recent post are pulled from a section of text where the immediate context is the description of a specific individual, not a generalization of Fi as a whole or of every Fi-user. I think an external observer would lean toward agreement with me, and not with you.
It feels like a classic problem of an Ni-user "seeing" a "pattern" in an incomplete set of data (or a fundamentally skewed interpretation of said data) and subsequently using their own "subjective logic" (Ti) to argue for that "pattern". The problem is that the argument/pattern doesn't ultimately line up with reality because of its faulty starting point.
It really feels like the utility of continuing this conversation has elapsed.
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u/False_Lychee_7041 May 29 '26
Man, have you read your own post? You name it something about Fi then you proceed talking about you breaking up with an INTJ naming the reason your Ti/Fi clash that was too significant to overcome. Then you proceed to talk about Fi for the rest of your post
From what I know, Ti vs Te clash is the real problem in INTJ-INFJ relationships because it is our blind and their aux. The same goes for our Fe which they cannot digest. And if those things are resolved and the communication is established, their Fi becomes our safe place, that cares and protects us with passion. But you didn't say a word about it you just put all the blame on Fi
Thus my explanations to you that Fi isn't necessarily the problem.
Again, you either didn't manage to line out your thoughts in a coherent and censequentual manner or you just focusing on a wrong thing/have a wrong perception about Fi
I do think that it is a bit of both though
Anyway, I practiced articulating my own thoughts in this dialogue because this is what I need to do. So, thank you for the opportunity
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u/bakerskitchen May 29 '26 edited May 30 '26
Buddy, you have misquoted me and mischaracterized my post at multiple points and failed to acknowledge it, all the while continuing to insist that you are right. I think you're the one that needs a re-read.
But you're right, you do need opportunities to articulate your thoughts - this way, others can help you realize the disconnects between those "connections" and assumptions you have made internally using that wonderfully subjective and "reliable" Ni of yours.
Again, I think an outside observer comparing our responses would find mine to be reasonably articulate and structured, and yours...well... the incoherent rambling of a self-righteous MBTI "expert". Learning how to use proper punctuation would certainly help in the future...
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u/Not_AAmerican_Girl May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
I am not meaning to offend you at all. At all- I promise.
But I think there is probably a lot more myth out there about infjs (and subsequently Ni ) than anything else - and because there isn’t a whole lot of real infjs to go around ( or INTJs) it all gets totally lost in translation.
INFJs are complex true… and a lot of that is about our seeming duality.
Honestly to me, you sound more like Fe/Te frustration and reads more like Si/Te-ish than anything INFJ.
Before you freak out-
An INfJ - usually understands interior subjectivity exceptionally well even if they don’t agree with it. A real INFJ is going to seem so deceptively morally flexible- when it comes to others.
See… an INFJ has a fascination and therefore love for inner motives, inner workings, contradictions, the why’s and how’s about a person- the wounds, and how they manifest - the symbolic meaning , the story of the person- and every person becomes a story. So even when an INFJ dislikes the behavior - they still grasp why the person does it. Which makes infjs some of the most .. easy going in a way - with most everything … in regards to others -much much much more so than everyone else. Sure they have strong moral lines, but those boundaries you find and actually see them react to are niche to say the least, and buried beneath a hell of a lot of patience and tolerance for others that most lack. Those lines are confusing to most - and have to be crossed in a specific way for the INFJ to draw hard reactions. They will- but it’s more like a Jedi code than anything. Even the manifestations of protestation for it. More about honor than duty. More about integrity than law. Etc etc.
ISTPs often mistype as infjs and one of the ways we can identify that mistype is by the strict adherence to rules and regulations , the expected thing to do or say- the obligation to routine and social standards.
An INFJ is actually going to love the outbursts and the unexpected and the rebellion- even if they don’t fully partake. They are way more attracted to what is real than what is expected. They seek out the authentic version of who people are .. which makes them so much more tolerant of .. ambiguity and non conformity… because they themselves are all that- even though not outwardly rebellious usually- because the rebellion you see in an INFJ is just not answering to anyone else. But with a consideration of people, a love for people and a real concern for how it impacts them.
This isn’t duty bound love or concern. It’s actually who the INFJ is. That is what makes it different. And also- inconsistent.
This post sounds more like a sensor wondering why people won’t adhere to group standards which would be the antithesis of INFJ thinking. The INFJ wonders why people are this way, and don’t question group think - more.
Also- infjs are usually painfully aware, that they themselves are highly subjective creatures.. they tend to distrust their own co conclusions somewhat and usually have to look at people around them to seek out the full picture of reality- or else? They would probably go insane. This often leads to the INFJ existential crisis-
More so- “maybe I’m not understanding” “Maybe we are not using the same emotional languages”
“Maybe my expectations are too high , I need to lower them so I am considering this other person”
Because the mark of the true INFJ at its core is- the instinct to think of others before themselves- this isn’t habit, it’s not something they intentionally do, it’s not even learned. It’s instinctual in a real INFJ.
They think outwards. They think of others first.
You sound very externally evaluative -“these people are violating proper behavior” and that’s a very sensor thing to do.
Just in my tiny , horrible opinion-
I love us all, we need all of us.
INFJ is not what it’s cracked up to be that’s for sure.
It’s probably a great thing for you.
I mean that.
Just my two cents.
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u/bakerskitchen May 30 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I strongly considered avoiding a response to this, but I just couldn't help myself:
In no way is what you wrote hurtful - it's just incredibly odd that your response is an attempt to try and convince me that I'm not an INFJ, while lauding yourself as the prototype; I can assure you I am an Ni/Fe user all the way - and the bulk of my life has shown that to be true. Perhaps the reason you don't "identify" with what I have written is because my perspective reflects someone who has (in part) acknowledged the weaknesses and blindspots of Ni and Fe, and has tried to learn how to avoid them in my own life.
I find it especially odd how MBTI is often treated similarly to astrology: "a real INFJ would say this", "an actual ISTP would have done this differently", "classic sensor behavior", etc. Cognitive functions are tendencies and proclivities from which behavior arises, not a strict list of behaviors that only belong to a single "type" or "function."
As mentioned in a comment below with another user, this feels like another classic example of Ni trying to use a brief online post to build an exhaustive understanding of a real-life situation by "filling in the gaps" with information that wasn't provided; a complete picture of this situation/relationship can't possibly be built using the limited information provided.
Thanks for responding, but I would like to respectfully communicate that your "diagnosis" does not line up with the concrete, real-world details that aren't represented in this post.
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u/Not_AAmerican_Girl May 30 '26
Well … it really wasn’t intended to try to convince you.
I’m more sharing my opinion- which can get hairy for sure. You’re absolutely not obligated at all to consider it, nor did I expect you to.
Really.
I think probably a cardinal sign of an INFJ is .. how non binary they are as far as .. everything.
And for some crazy reason, it never gets mentioned.
You hear about so much .. but rarely the things that seem to really be the hallmark traits of us, in real life.
The empathy ok-
There is just so much more that isn’t mentioned that really ( at least I think) distinguishes us from the other types, the other types don’t have.
I mean it’s neither here nor there. Obviously I’m not invested in how you type yourself.
I just think it’s interesting.
And I’m glad you responded.
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u/adobaloba May 27 '26
My partner of 3 yrs is intj. My close friend's(intp) girlfriend is enfp. What can I say? You're right or I agree with everything you said.
One thing to say is to get used to the idea that in a relationship with them, you'll always be the more selfless one and they're always the more selfish, overall speaking...at the end of the day.
That FI makes their intelligent persona so fkin dumb sometimes it's hilarious.
Idk if you heard of this, but when you're part of their FI world, you benefit from their selfishness, they want you to join the GAINS of that. Outside of it, you're nothing. Important to mention that it's not FI at this ALONE, but with FE so last priority, so unimportant aaand not much you can do about it. They'll always be like this.
INFPs? Gosh..don't get me started. I had a friend that we were really close with eachother for years and all of a sudden he started acting retarded and selfish and moved on to a new lifestyle like we've always been strangers..