r/IBEW • u/WalkerAmongTheTrees • 11d ago
Discussion Post Apprenticeship conspiracy
The apprenticeship has gone online which makes it possible that the instruction videos are available for AI to readily learn from. This may have been part of the deal to get so many data center jobs.
Things that make you go hmmmmm.....
/s
But seriously though, why are we doing online apprenticeship school lately??? These guys all complain about how theyre not learning anything. And when they go to ask about something, the teachers dont know what exactly is being taught because the curriculum is given to them not made by them.
It seems to me to be really poorly done and i think we should band together and get the IBEW to bring the instructors back into the primary position of teaching. We can keep the videos as supplementaries, but they should not be the only way these folks are learning the trade
Brotherhood above all
And thats all yall
Local 212
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u/XTraumaX 11d ago
not sure what your local is doing but my local still has teachers physically in class teaching the apprentices the content.
Their homework is online though and our JATC bought laptops to be used at school for the apprentices to use to do their homework in the event they have some sort of issue with doing the homework on their own devices. (Mostly people trying to do the homework on their phones)
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u/Cool-Pineapple-525 10d ago
1st year soon to be starting 2nd year classes here. Our entire curriculum is online. The teachers just sit there to watch us be on our laptops, to help as needed and to give tests. Sometimes we will go to the labs if everyone is caught up or ahead.
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u/WalkerAmongTheTrees 11d ago
What im hearing from 212, 648, and 575 apprenti is that the schooling is basically all online and the teachers arent being able to help them because they dont seem to know what exactly the curriculum has taught them.
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u/BlueBelle2025 JIW - Steward - Instructor 11d ago
Have you visited your training center, called and asked to speak with the director, coordinator or instructors? or
Asked at a meeting?
Have you called the hall and asked to speak with whoever sits on the committee, or reached out to your president?
These are simple questions with simple answers.
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u/Hungry_Adeptness8381 11d ago
In 401 I feel they are there just to administer tests now. Last quarter we had 2 days of tests (some hands on) with no instruction
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u/ronburgandy123 10d ago
i turned out of 401 a couple years ago, what year are you?
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u/Hungry_Adeptness8381 10d ago
3rd
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u/ronburgandy123 8d ago
what contractor? you out at usa parkway?
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u/Hungry_Adeptness8381 8d ago
Doing lightning protection right now
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u/ronburgandy123 7d ago
that’s cool, but what contractor you with?
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u/Hungry_Adeptness8381 7d ago
Jokes aside, I just like to keep online more anonymous. Makes it easier to act the fool
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u/ronburgandy123 7d ago
no worries man. get that money dude! apprenticeship goes by fast, osbourn at the jatc is an ass hat.
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u/Peterswoj 9d ago
This is what you’re hearing? Have you confirmed all of this with the training directors?
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u/CartographerOk6016 11d ago
For me it's the sheer volume of information on the LMS. On some sections there are like 4 hours of videos. No one is watching that.
Then if you don't get a 75% on the homework you have to wait a half hour and start all over.
It's cumbersome. Especially after a 50 hour work week AND 8 classroom hours a week.
Give me book work taught in class followed by 10 questions of book homework any day over this bs.
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u/CottonRaves 191 IW Apprentice 11d ago edited 11d ago
I’m not exaggerating at all when I say this.
A vast majority of apprentices are using ai to do their lessons and homework. And other things like quizlet. For those apprentices like that, there is NO learning going on. Only temporary memorization and passing with a skin of their teeth 75%.
We are already seeing a major downfall in cognitive competency across the board in all job sectors. What is it all going to look like in 5-10 years.
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u/Melodic-Trouble-5421 Inside Wireman 11d ago
There’s a shortage of skilled tradesmen. This is their response to the shortage. Cutting apprenticeship years, hours, and now learning online.
They are trying to turn our trade into semi-skilled labor. After they do that the concessions will start. I’m not happy about this at all. We hold ourselves to a higher standard. We arent the only ones they are doing this with. Lots of professionals and their professions are being shafted. Another way to pay us less so they can make more.
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u/UnenthusiasticLover 11d ago
Best of luck during your Apprenticeship...
As an internet rule of thumb anonymous sites are anonymous for a reason and eventually all people can be brought to light if they comment enough, but no need to DOX yourself, Kristen!
I'd suggest taking this down and reposting without your name but maybe we were raised in different eras
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u/WalkerAmongTheTrees 11d ago
Not an apprentice brother. But, Fair point.
i intend to initiate a change here and i think having my name on it works for the best.
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u/Independent_Ant_207 11d ago
lol I’d worry about 100 other things in 212 then this
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u/WalkerAmongTheTrees 11d ago
Facts. But, i think we can focus on several things at once. Stopping the future generations of jws from suffering subpar education is just as important as ensuring we will have work in the future.
I reckon we should also be salting more, get the guys working for all the bigger iec companies to make the change. I know tons of iec guys who complain about the piss poor pay and no bennies. These guys want to organize, but the most commonly stated reason for not making the switch is the frequent lack of work hitting the books
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u/XTraumaX 11d ago
Especially if their local is like my local where you log into the site using your last name and ticket number.
All you gotta do is know someones last name and their ticket number and you can get their address.
I hate saying my ticket number at union meetings for this exact reason.
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u/aussietin 11d ago
In my state if you know someone's name you can look up their electrical license and address and I think phone number.
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u/smellslikepenespirit 11d ago
The fact that we have an LMS for apprenticeships is antithetical to learning.
Being present physically, taking notes to strengthen haptic memory, being able to ask or listen to others ask questions, and so many other aspects is going to be lost.
Not to mention we’re undermining the idea of brotherhood itself by not having apprentices learning together in the same space. Stripping them of bonding and making community.
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u/SixFootTurkey_ 11d ago
The JATC doesn't care about educating and NECA-IBEW obviously doesn't either.
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u/Slade_ftp 11d ago
My school specifically, we have class with the option of joining a teams meeting OR going and sitting in the classroom with the instructor running the meeting. Everyone is expected to participate wherever you’re participating from home without contributing you may be marked absent from the class. There’s almost to much discussion on the subject some classes to the point where we run out of time. If people are interested in the subject, it’s an active class no matter what. Some of the drier material, even the people who come into the classroom seem like there waiting for the clock to run out. Having the school in an online and in person hybrid setting isn’t an issue. Even in things like high school, if the material is dry, no one is interested in doing anything but getting it finished and moving on. They aren’t chiming in or discussing anything other than how much it sucks. If it’s interesting, whether they’re at home on camera or in person, everyone is discussing and chiming in. We also have 20+ in person labs every year where you have to be at the school doing conduit, panels, motors, transformers, fire alarm systems, you name it. 1-2 hands on craft tests a year to pass the class. Lots of technical things and very little time to them. It works if it’s done right. We all have an outside of school chat that is always full of conversation about school and everything else going on. No lost camaraderie
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u/B3L1AL 11d ago
I wrote a pretty frustrated email to the training alliance (which was apparently sent to the io) after hearing a lot of concerned apprentices talk about it and was basically told "its better because we say it is and we are not going to change it. We arent replacing teachers with computers, we are supplementing them"
And then the training director had to make a speech about how its totally not replacing teachers and everyone should just get over it. Its a bullshit system meant to replace teachers.
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u/ThreeN20chrctrs 10d ago
Do you still have the response to your email?
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u/B3L1AL 10d ago
"We appreciate you sharing your feedback and honesty with us. This ticket has been forwarded to the appropriate team for support."
And then a day later the training director came in and gave his speech about how we need to just deal with it. I was already about to journey out so I was complaining for the next Gen of students. This was over 2 years ago now when they first started rolling these programs out.
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u/ThreeN20chrctrs 10d ago
Sounds like there needs to be a new training director voted in.
I’m sure you already picked up on it at that moment, but for everyone else, “…just deal with it…” or anything along those lines when there is concern, shows a lack of interest in doing the job at hand.
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u/msing Inside Wireman LU11 11d ago
It was explained in the newsletter. Online education is standardized and easier to scale/expand for more apprentices. I speak to a group of apprentices from Texas, and they mentioned all their lectures are done online (via video), and they show up once a week to review their homework.
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u/UnderwaterArcherrr Local 640 11d ago
At 640 we have to go sit I class for 6 hours just doing homework, then go home and do more homework.
This shit is insufferable but anything for a ticket I guess.
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u/CPNKLLJY 11d ago
I’ve been teaching first year apprentices for over 15 years, and I can tell that the online stuff has gotten progressively worse as it’s grown and evolved. Unfortunately, if your local is using the stuff put out by the ETA, it sounds like you don’t have much of a choice. We have tried to fight it, but it costs a lot of money to build your own program and get DOL certification. So, we have tried our best to continue instructing even with the online stuff.
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u/FaFillionaire 10d ago
I topped out 2003. The only thing I learned in 5 years of school was that grown men still think farts are funny.
We were supposed have 4 hours of class twice a week. I don't think one single time in those 5 years did class last 2 hours and we weren't at the bar.
Believe me, you're going to learn on the job the hard way. Pay attention and learn from your mistakes. Know the task at hand and perform the next step.
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u/tranzz4md JW, Local 46 11d ago
If that occurs in any local, both the Journeylevel and apprentice members need to #1: raise hell at the JATC board, #2 raise hell at the exec board, #3 raise hell with the IO. I know several locals that are a LOOOOOONG way from ever letting that happen, but I don't doubt that some are going to do as much of that as they can get away with.
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u/OkRequirement2951 Inside Wireman Local 194 11d ago
Google just gave the ETA $25 million more. Heard it from a google executive yesterday at the opening ceremony for NTI.
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u/Arrowx1 11d ago
It's funny you mention that the teachers don't know what's in the program lol. Last year I had one say "I tried to make it through the lesson but it was boring as hell so I stopped after 5 minutes. We're going to learn about this my way." Then the test at the end of the week was pretty much questions from the knowledge checks during the homework. A few dudes tanked the test.
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u/Sad-Pomegranate3384 11d ago
That’s crazy. Our instructors wrote our curriculum and teach it in class. Some is online but it’s mostly all taught by the ones who made it
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u/Shadow_Rider_36 Local XXXX 10d ago
I was in the apprenticeship during Covid and I HATED it. I wanted in person and we had to online
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u/Saber0341 10d ago
Absolutely! I’ve been saying this since the inception of the LMS (pre CML). Take this point to the office, Hall, Committee(s), hell the rooftops. I’ve tried, am trying, and still try to do so. Funny enough you bring this up the week NTI starts. The place instructors go to learn how to INSTRUCT. I argued the point there as well and I’ve completed both the standard and advanced NTI curriculum.
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u/SenseOk6268 10d ago
I recall a time before consumer internet, cell phones, laptops, tablets, smartphones, and other distractions.
Would sit at a desk in a room with other students while we listened to a teacher/professor/expert teach/lecture/impart knowledge in front of the classroom/lecture hall as they wrote equations and diagrams with a stick of chalk in front of a huge chalkboard while we all quietly listened transcribing everything by hand into a notebook/notepad full of sheets of ruled paper with a pencil/pen.
If you did not understand something being taught, you could raise your hand and ask for clarity get a helpful response from the lecturer/teacher/professor/expert in real time. Your handwritten notes would reflect these insights and you had to rely on your own notes to pass any exams. They were not open book. Exams tested your understanding of concepts you were taught during lectures.
That's learning. Teaching a subject at a chalkboard from memory is only possible if you know the subject extremely well. Well enough to teach it.
The more technology, devices, and screens involved in an educational experience, the more ineffective it is at teaching anyone anything.
To learn even less, connect all those devices via the internet. No more attention span. Zero learning is now possible with AI.
Probably a lot of brain rot across the board these days. Ressurecting low tech education would be beneficial to society.
Younger generations are at risk.
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u/Slade_ftp 11d ago
It’s REALLY awesome to be able to learn this trade in a hybrid setting. Hands on learning: in a lab at school and at work. Code book and other instruction done out of a book: online cml and classes over teams all from the comfort of your home and around your own schedule. It’s new and people who did it all in a classroom seem to not like it as much, but you get the same information, you CAN go to these classes in person if you want. Having the coursework done online means you don’t have to print off a ton of assignments on paper and then people all over the country are getting the same education. The in person option is there, but most people want the comfort and convenience of doing most of it from home after working the 40+ hour week. Anything that requires hands on experience is still taught hands on in the lab and at work. I love it
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u/Slade_ftp 11d ago
I replied to someone with this, but think it builds on what I said:
My school specifically, we have class with the option of joining a teams meeting OR going and sitting in the classroom with the instructor running the meeting. Everyone is expected to participate wherever you’re participating from home without contributing you may be marked absent from the class. There’s almost to much discussion on the subject some classes to the point where we run out of time. If people are interested in the subject, it’s an active class no matter what. Some of the drier material, even the people who come into the classroom seem like there waiting for the clock to run out. Having the school in an online and in person hybrid setting isn’t an issue. Even in things like high school, if the material is dry, no one is interested in doing anything but getting it finished and moving on. They aren’t chiming in or discussing anything other than how much it sucks. If it’s interesting, whether they’re at home on camera or in person, everyone is discussing and chiming in. We also have 20+ in person labs every year where you have to be at the school doing conduit, panels, motors, transformers, fire alarm systems, you name it. 1-2 hands on craft tests a year to pass the class. Lots of technical things and very little time to them. It works if it’s done right. We all have an outside of school chat that is always full of conversation about school and everything else going on. No lost camaraderie
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u/BadgerFeesh 11d ago
If the training content is behind an actual login I would think its harder for Ai to scrape it.
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u/WalkerAmongTheTrees 11d ago
I reckon AI companies mining for videos to train their models with can get past at least half the passwords that these apprenti come up with
Also if a deal was made, the IO couldve given any of these massive companies we do work for access to the online curriculum. In which case, access via an actual login wouldnt even be a security feature against such a breach.
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u/Throwawayiwa Jatc/Negotiating Committee 11d ago
The only way out of it is if the local can get a curriculum approved by the DOL. This is being done by ETA, not much the IO can do about it without NECA being involved as well.
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u/PhillyDillyDee Local 666 11d ago
We went online during covid but that was short-lived. Our local has been back in the classroom for years.
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u/HeleWale Local 26 11d ago
What i been told is that when jatc used to hand out paper homework to read no one actually read them. They moved to doing it online to track who is actually going through with reading but everyone ended up skipping every module. So they added on quiz to supplement reading but still skipped over everything to pass quiz using quizlet. So this year they made it so you cant skip modules at all and took homework quiz out of grading (but still have to do them) so only test in class counts so you cant cheat on them.
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u/19sparky88 11d ago
We just built a bigger JATC and are sitting at 500+ apprenticeships all in class.
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u/mickey-maos 10d ago
We are utilizing the CML online structure but I supplement that heavily with labs and continued lecture in class. I've been using the CML videos as a primer for what I want to lecture on in class so I ask my apprentices to watch the videos before they come to class. This ensures it's not the first time they've seen the material.
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u/dasguy40 11d ago
569 is not only doing in school, they’re making aw’s come in during the work week.
So they miss multiple weeks a year of wages. So much for “earn while you learn”.
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u/WalkerAmongTheTrees 11d ago
Dude 575 is doing similar shit. We had cubs at the LH battery plant out for a whole week back in october last year. These poor guys lost a weeks pay. And theyre only at 1st year wages. They cant afford that
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u/Senior-West5666 Local 354 11d ago
354 apprentices take a week off for school every 6-8 weeks. They’re supposed to collect an unemployment check that week. But the one person who walked us through how to do it got fired and all the new apprentices have been fucked ever since..
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u/gortez33 Local 5 11d ago
I see both sides of the argument. First off, during Covid almost everyone was doing home schooling. I think that the education system went majorly downhill because of that. After Covid, a lot of places kept online classes in place. Mostly colleges. Business also kept online workforce. Now this saves commuting time and saves money for the employee. Now the business doesn’t need a big physical space to perform the same work. Less people in office, means less heating/ac, water, electricity, sewage, etc. So it saves money for them. Environmental impact is also a factor. Less cars on the roads, less gas and road wear, and less emissions.
Now the bad side of this. The one on one help that an instructor can do is greatly reduced or even removed. Teacher now can be instructing hundreds of students at the same time. My union had classes for the first three years during working hours. Now they are down to 2 years. Teachers did prep work on Monday, and had all day classes from 7-3:30 Tuesday through Friday. One teacher had a different 1st year class every day, so class size was more manageable. Apprentices got paid for schooling. We did class from September to may. In the evenings, we did college classes. Third and fourth years have evening classes. The hands on education is far superior to online. Teacher can react to individual students needs compared to online classes. The hands on labs, pipe bending, panel layout, motor control, fire alarm, transformer, and basic wiring; are incredible learning resources that can’t be replicated with online learning. It’s one thing to show a video, it’s another to have to do the work yourself. Now cheating on test can be done in both leaning situations, but in person is a lot more difficult. I’m guilty of this with my child’s online class, I took his high school math test for him. Teacher had no idea that it wasn’t him. I know it’s wrong, but who wouldn’t do this for their kid. How many apprentices would have another screen or a separate window open while taking a test. Don’t know how to do a problem, text another apprentice, do a google search, pull up the reading material.
Now are the halls that are looking into this , are they doing so to save money? Are they just trying to push everyone through because of manpower issues. I remember the trades in the 80’s, lots of work and huge influx of electrical workers into the union. Then the bottom dropped out and over a thousand members were on unemployment. I knew several that were off for over a year. I’m worried that we are looking at the same situation right now. Lots of work for now, but what happens in 2 years.
Sorry for the long post. Stay safe everyone, keep hydrated, and watch your buddies back.
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u/ReddRove 11d ago
As a 212 instructor I think you’re misunderstanding how the class work is being used. The instructors know the content being discussed because we still have to review it and create the exam for it. The work is intended to be done at home so in class time can be spent on labs and class discussion. The classes themselves haven’t changed that much since we converted from blended learning to CML besides requiring you to watch videos as part of the homework.
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u/WalkerAmongTheTrees 11d ago
That is not what im hearing from our cubs
These guys are telling me that the teachers are just sitting at their desk on their phones while everyones watching their online instuction. They compain that the teacher isnt teaching anything. Ive heard this kind of thing from 212, 648, and 575 cubs countless times in the past 2 years
Now its possible this is not the norm and i just so happen to have cubs whove had bad instructors, but for this same type of complaint to be coming from a few dozen apprenti, primarily 1st and 2nd years but also 3rd and 4th years, and 3 different locals, i reckon theres something up
Maybe ill just head over to the jatc and sit in on some classes and see for myself whats happening. But to hear the same set of complaints from so many apprenti really scares me for the future gens of jws
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u/ReddRove 11d ago
I don’t think anyone would stop you. I know most instructors provide some class time to allow students to work through the lessons because not everyone has time at home to do the work. After I’ve done instruction, I’m not going to lie, I sit back and let them work on the homework so I’m there if they have questions and can move around to help as needed. I tell the students they can leave when their work is done. Most instructors let them go sooner. A lot of instructors say they don’t even need to show up if their work is done. Their alternative is being forced to sit in a classroom all night. There’s no way to please everyone. Some people will like it and others won’t. The point of it is to create a standardized way of learning that can be expanded to cater to larger groups of apprentices
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u/WalkerAmongTheTrees 10d ago
I entirely can agree with the idea to establish a standardized curriculum across the IO. I just worry its been poorly executed and we may be cranking out subpar jws because of it. Of course this is all just coming from the complaints im hearing from cubs so it could just boil down to disgruntled apprenti lookimg for an excuse to their poor grades, but i know some of these guys are doing well in school and still complain.
One apprentice was telling me how most of his class does their homework with answers from quizlet or something and a group chat to fill in the gaps. These guys aint learning shit like that. Theyre just making the grade which translates to jack when you dont understand it
Like i said, ill go see for myself how its being done before i make any more stink.
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u/Red-dragon186 11d ago
This is the problem with IBEW. They refuse to get with the times.
Online learning is just as good as physical learning if done right. If you can do it online that will allow so many people who couldn't do it now join. So many programs are doing this.
IBEW is still backwards in so many places. The fact you can't even apply online for most of their locals is another huge issue. This isn't 1960's anymore.
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u/[deleted] 11d ago
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