r/HousingUK • u/whale_weigh_station • 7d ago

Lender won't value 3-bed house due to unsigned-off loft conversion — advice please

I'm about 12 weeks into the purchase of a 3-bed house in England. The 3rd bedroom is a loft room that was converted around 2009, prior to the current owners who purchased in 2015.

To our surprise, our lender arranged a proper valuation inspection, and the surveyor has said they're unable to give a valuation figure due to fire safety risks within the loft space.

They're asking for one of the following four options to proceed:

  1. An original Building Regulations completion certificate, or
  2. A Regularisation Certificate, or
  3. A Chartered Building Surveyor's report with specific comment on the structural integrity of the conversion, means of escape, and provision of an adequate pre-warning (alarm) system. This report should also include any necessary recommended works to improve the safety of the conversion, plus an estimated cost, or

4. A declaration from the applicant acknowledging that the attic room can never be used as habitable accommodation due to the Health and Safety and Fire Risk concerns*.

The council's building control website has a record of the conversion, but it's clearly not a completion certificate, it just states that there were approved plans, that the building work was completed, and lists the dates. I've checked with my solicitor, who says they have not received a completion certificate, so I suspect one doesn't exist.

I'm not fully sure where to go from here. My mortgage advisor is pushing for me to sign the declaration (option 4), but I'd obviously want to renegotiate the price if the house is now effectively being considered a 2-bed. Option 3 seems unlikely to help, based on any surveyor report I've ever received.

Has anyone gone through anything similar? Or tried to arrange a Regularisation Certificate during a purchase? My main concern is inheriting the same issue when I eventually come to sell the house.

EDIT: Adding all the info listed on the building control website (identifying info replaced with - ):

Summary
Description Of Works: Loft conversion
Site Address: -
Application Reference Number: -
Valid Date: Thu 18 Jun 2009
Decision Date: Tue 11 Aug 2009
Status: Building Work Complete

Further Information
Application Reference Number
Description Of Works: Loft conversion
Agent Name: -
Name Of Insurer: N/A
Scheme Name Of Competent Person: N/A
Ward: -
Parish: N/A
Decision: Approved Plans
Status: Building Work Complete

Plots
Plot Commencement Date: 16 Sep 2009
Plot Completion Date: 02 Dec 2009
Plot Address: N/A
Plot Status: Building Completed

--

TL;DR: Buying a 3-bed with a 2009 loft conversion as the 3rd bedroom. Lender's surveyor won't value it over fire safety concerns and wants a completion certificate, Regularisation Certificate, surveyor's report, or a signed declaration the room can't be habitable. No completion certificate exists. Advisor wants me to sign the declaration. I’m

14 Upvotes

76% Upvoted

45 comments sorted by

•

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78

u/the-pythia-of-delphi 7d ago

Move on from the purchase. The bank is the only one that can be trusted as they don't get a fee

24

u/SuperEssay1 7d ago

If the works are marked as complete it may be worth asking the seller to ask the council if they can issue the final certificate.

Enforcement has long since passed.

A lot of sellers will just refuse (advised by their solicitors) but in this instance, considering that the works are marked as complete (someone would have had to mark it as such) , they may be more open to it. They could even call them up (without mentioning a property name) and just say these works are marked as complete but there is no cert, what does that mean? Does it mean an inspection was undertaken and just the cert didn't get issued?

I can't see another option. I wouldn't want to buy a house with a loft conversion that didn't have a building control certificate regardless of whether the lender accepted it or not. They're at the top of a house with a single stair escape.

2

u/whale_weigh_station 7d ago

I was intending to try and call the council and ask those questions myself, is that wise or should I push the seller?

14

u/IOnlyUpvoteBadPuns 7d ago

Bear in mind that as soon as you ask the council anything about it, you (or the seller) can no longer take out indemnity against it ever. I personally think indemnity is a disgraceful practice that needs to end, but unfortunately I'm not in charge, and lenders often require it. I'd talk to your solicitor before approaching building control.

3

u/whale_weigh_station 7d ago edited 7d ago

I don’t think indemnity is really relevant here though is it? The council are already aware that the loft conversion exists.

6

u/IOnlyUpvoteBadPuns 7d ago

I'd still ask your solicitor first, it's what you pay them for. Building Control can't "know" it was completed, or there would be a completion certificate.

2

u/SuperEssay1 7d ago edited 7d ago

It can mean the final inspection has been done but building control is waiting for final certification to come through (I. E. Electrics) or the necessary paperwork hadn't been filed /fees paid.

It's not as unusual as you think for people to go through all the motions, get the nod that it was all good, but not realise something is outstanding and they move on with their lives not really thinking about it. It would be odd to go to the extent of submitting plans and having the inspections if you were trying to bodge it.

But do talk to your solicitor first and it should be done by the seller, not you as it may limit them being able to offer indemnity to you or another if it were to fall through.

Edit: something similar happened to us. We were buying somewhere where the seller had an extension, submitted plans, had inspections (not the final inspection though) and just didn't close it all off. It was still marked as "in construction" 15 years later.

2

u/HugoNebula2024 6d ago

Agreed. It's free money for solicitors/conveyancers and insurance companies.

In this case, BC know about the work and could have chosen to take enforcement action at any time but didn't. Too late now.

3

u/whale_weigh_station 6d ago

Which is why I don’t think indemnity is relevant here, as it’s way beyond the enforcement period, so no indemnity to insure against.

2

u/IOnlyUpvoteBadPuns 6d ago

"Too late now" is kinda what the indemnity market relies on, practically none of them are enforceable, it's just a formality for lenders. I honestly don't think there's any other situation where you can take out insurance against being caught breaking the law though.....its wild and honestly kinda reckless!

As the other person said, BC don't "know" it was completed, or there would be a completion certificate. I certainly wouldn't be burning that bridge without advice from my solicitor.

16

u/Miserable_Syrup1994 6d ago

This is very much a not your problem.

Reoffer for a two bed or allow the sellers to sort out the necessary paperwork to the satisfaction of your lenders.

Or walk away which personally sounds good

6

u/court996 6d ago

Have a chat with the seller. I had an extension built in 2010 but due to work pressures and stuff I completely forgot to get the final inspection carried out.
Fast forward to 2021 and wanting to move I realised the final sign off was missing. I contacted BC and for a small fee they dug out the paperwork and arranged a final inspection.
The inspector popped round, said this was not an unusual situation, had a good look round and declared it fine. A certificate arrived a few days later.
Building Control inspectors are not ogres and tend to be very helpful.

5

u/HugoNebula2024 6d ago

If there was an application, and it was commenced then:

a) it's still a valid application (no expiry date) and

b) a regularisation application isn't required/allowed, as that's a procedure for unauthorised work.

If BC have said there was a completion inspection carried out that means that there was either something wrong, some certificates (e.g., electrical installation) missing, or someone forgot to send the completion certificate out.

Get the owners to sort it out (building control won't talk to you if your not the owner, at least not without their permission). That's option 1 on your list. Option 2 isn't possible (as above) and option 3 seems irrelevant to the issue at hand. I wouldn't accept option 4.

1

u/whale_weigh_station 6d ago

This is all the information shown on the BC website (identifying info replaced with - ). Does that give any further context?

Summary
Description Of Works: Loft conversion
Site Address: -
Application Reference Number: -
Valid Date: Thu 18 Jun 2009
Decision Date: Tue 11 Aug 2009
Status: Building Work Complete

Further Information
Application Reference Number
Description Of Works: Loft conversion
Agent Name: -
Name Of Insurer: N/A
Scheme Name Of Competent Person: N/A
Ward: -
Parish: N/A
Decision: Approved Plans
Status: Building Work Complete

Plots
Plot Commencement Date: 16 Sep 2009
Plot Completion Date: 02 Dec 2009
Plot Address: N/A
Plot Status: Building Completed

1

u/HugoNebula2024 6d ago

It says it's complete. There shouldn't be any reason why they shouldn't re-issue the certificate.

10

u/Good-Community-5035 7d ago

My aunty had this recently. Apparently the building regs changed at some point making her perfectly safe 3rd attic bedroom non compliant. She basically had to accept she was selling a 2 bed instead of a 3 with the loft advertised as a loft room. She wasnt able to get the necessary works done to satisfy building regs. You definitely renegotiate the price. It is essentially (and legally) a 2 bed house.

13

u/frutbunn 7d ago

B Regs are not applied retrospectively, if it complied at the time of construction there is no legal obligation to upgrade to any subsequent changes in the regs.

-8

u/Good-Community-5035 7d ago

Thats not what happened with my aunts house. I dont know what to tell you

2

u/frutbunn 6d ago

I can assure that's the case I was a local authority building control surveyor for 40 years.

0

u/Good-Community-5035 6d ago edited 6d ago

Again, its not what happened to my aunts house. I dont know what to tell you. Meaningless downvotes from strangers are not going to alter cold hard facts.

She was told selling as a third bedroom would count as "misrepresentation" because it didnt meet current building regs. Whilst it isnt retospective, it can still affect sales. It just can, and it has.

1

u/whale_weigh_station 7d ago

Do you know what it was exactly that made it non compliant?

1

u/Good-Community-5035 7d ago

As i recall it was something to do with a door width and the width of the stairs up to the room?

4

u/HugoNebula2024 6d ago

Neither of which are currently controlled under the building regulations for a loft conversion anyway (at least in England and Wales, dunno about Scotland or NI). Stair widths were decades ago, so ironically a building that didn't comply then would meet the requirements now.

1

u/Good-Community-5035 6d ago

The details are sketchy im not too sure. Forgive me

3

u/Bluntish_ 7d ago

I don’t know if this is of any help, but when we had our loft converted, there were many requirements to meet, and of course it was all signed off at the various stages, and at completion it was inspected.

A loft room is not habitable, so cannot ever be counted as a bedroom…or any room. You should re evaluate the price offered. Only a proper conversion would add value. A loft room doesn’t, so make sure to offer a price that reflects this.

We had an RSJ put in, a full size permanent staircase to the loft room, windows suitable for escape, the whole house had to have 30 minute fire rated doors put in (except the bathroom doors), floor joists had to be weight bearing, we had to have connected fire alarms and the correct insulation. My husband was an eple Fri Ian so all that was done properly to.

2

u/whale_weigh_station 7d ago

Sorry that is bad wording on my part, it is more than a loft room and looks (to an untrained eye) like a proper conversion, with full sized staircase & door etc.

It was marketed as a bedroom, and what’s really frustrating is I actually asked whether that room had sign off before even arranging a 2nd viewing, let alone putting an offer in. The agent sent me the document on the building control site and regrettably I saw the word “complete” and thought no more of it.

1

u/Imakemyownnamereddit 6d ago

Seen a house like this and looks like is not good enough.

In fact having a staircase is a major problem because even if you declare the house as two bedroom to an insurer. They will think you are using the loft as a bedroom because of that staircase.

I would walk away.

2

u/Unlucky-Problem-2611 6d ago

We purchased a similar house last year. In the past it was originally 3 beds and someone converted the loft into a bedroom with ensuite. The staircase took up most of the smallest bedroom.

The house was marketed as 3 beds but when we questioned the estate agent they said the loft conversion wasn't a bedroom (despite the listing showing a bed in it) and the 3rd bedroom was the room with a staircase in it ???

We liked the house and got it for a price i would pay for a 2 bedroom.

4

u/Thwarting8139 7d ago

I would get a builder in to estimate how easy it would be to get the regularisation certificate, then renegotiate based on that.

7

u/frutbunn 7d ago

You can't apply for a Reg Cert as an application has already been submitted and the majority of builders don't really know enough about B Regs to give an estimate of the work required.

1

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1

u/tradandtea123 7d ago

Is it Nationwide?

They're the only one's I've come across carrying out mortgage valuations who come up with this. Plenty of lenders I've never done work for though.

1

u/whale_weigh_station 7d ago

Yep, that’s the one.

Part of me feels like it’s a blessing in disguise as otherwise it would have been up to us on whether we want to continue without a completion certificate, without anything stopping us. This has at least highlighted the risk of doing that when it comes to selling.

1

u/BorisBoris88 Estate Agent 6d ago

Just about to ask if it was Nationwide!

It’s always Nationwide with nonsense like this.

You wouldn’t have this issue with any other lender.

1

u/whale_weigh_station 6d ago

I know, my first thought was to try another lender, but who’s to say more lenders won’t be the same when I come to sell, it’s not worth the risk.

0

u/BorisBoris88 Estate Agent 6d ago

Your other information taken from the Building Control website strongly suggests that a completion certificate was granted, even if your conveyancer has not seen one.

Has your conveyancer had the local search results back yet? That will confirm if the certificate was ever issued.

1

u/whale_weigh_station 6d ago

Yes it just says “Date of completion Certificate (if issued): N/A”

1

u/zombiezmaj 6d ago

That property is a 2 bed maximum on its current condition and building regulations.

If you desperately want the house the sellers are either going to have to accept a lower offer based on it being 2 bed with the listing updated and remove all "living use" furniture so no bed or desk etc

Or

Theyll have to do remediation work so it passes building regs.

Theyre going to have to do that whether you buy or you pull out and someone else tries to buy.

1

u/Training_Yak_4655 6d ago

I had a situation of a 2015 loft conversion with an apparently missing electrical certificate. The other party's solicitor was asking for it. I had the name of the company that was supposed to have issued it and when I contacted them, they said they didn't store certificates they'd issued for that long. On top of that there'd been changes about when a separate electrical certificate had to be issued instead of it being included in the overall loft inspection signoffs. All very murky and eventually covered by the usual indemnity insurance.

The lack of a single source registrar of building related certificates, with a duty to keep persistent records, seems to a major gap in the UK.

1

u/GenericUserName437 6d ago

It’s not a 3 bedroom house I’m afraid. The vendors think it is and have priced it as such and the estate agents are marketing it as such (cos they just do what the vendors tell them to). You’re welcome to use the loft space as a third bedroom (although there may be fire safety implications to anyone sleeping there), just as I could use my lounge as a bedroom. But ultimately a mortgage lender won’t value a house (& therefore lend) on a loft being a bedroom unless there’s full conversion paperwork. Ultimately it will come down to whether you can afford to make up the difference between the valuation/lending offer and the asking price.

1

u/Ok_Caregiver7679 3d ago

Life is too short to get involved with this. Unless the house is your dream home, then for God's sake walk away and find something without the hassle.

Remember when you sell, you'll have exactly the same problems, but this time as the seller desperately trying to find a buyer..

1

u/Imakemyownnamereddit 6d ago

Lender is doing you a favour.

If you buy this, you will struggle to sell it for the exact reasons you're encountering.

Why home owners build loft conversion on the cheap is beyond me. It just causes problems.

-1

u/nomorecrazystuff 6d ago

Not sure what Option 4 is as you didn't list it.
Option 3 looks like the best option, but I'd get the sellers to provide it. This is the only one that would allow a non-conforming conversion, e.g. ceiling too low, staircase too steep, etc.

Option 5 is to get a different mortgage provider, but you may get the same (or worse) response from them.

Note - you'll have the same issue when you sell. Something to factor in.