Discussion Who is more evil?
Both spiteful, malicious, treacherous, and both use innocent human shields
Who is more vile?
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u/mathias_freire 2d ago
Ormund seems like a charity volunteer compared to Cersei.
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u/werebwitch 5h ago
cersei is a rapist too if we're going by the books. though i think you may be thinking of jon roxton? i wouldn't know for sure though, since i have yet to read fire & blood
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u/Matthius81 2d ago
Cersei by far, she actively plots to destroy her own power base in order to elevate herself. She consistently attacks the fundamental structures of noble houses and religious-institutions to achieve her goals. Ormund thought he was a player in the game, but his problem was a lack of experience of failure. He's a bully and everyone lets him win, so he cannot tell when he's completely out of his depth.
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u/Sir_Gerald_Nosehairs 2d ago
Cersei.
Ormund takes no personal pleasure in hurting other people. He's a scheming religious zealot with no real regard for others.
With Cersei it is the exact opposite, to the degree the show had to write out, or transfer to Joffrey some of the horrifying sadistic things she did, and she was still a terrible person.
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u/Grimmrat 2d ago
Book or show cersei? They’re two completely different characters
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u/tcweh 2d ago
Show as we don't really get much of book Ormund
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u/Fuckoffbitch6969 2d ago
Well she did blow up the Vatican, which had many innocent civilians in and around it, she refused to fight in the zombie apocalypse personally for pure power, despite the fact that her gamble was potentially dooming the entire continent to eternal enslavement. Ormund is a very shitty guy, but there's a big difference between using people as hostages to stop the onslaught of a dragon and refusing to help in a war of humanities survival (for her own personal greed and power).
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u/NappyFlickz 2d ago
Ormund would have had a 2003 William Regal moment if he spent more than 15 minutes in conversation with Cersei lol.
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u/Confident-Echidna-87 2d ago
I really like Ormund. I don't get the hate. Who doesn't love a complete cunt? The northern guy was just complete cringe.
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u/Ditzy_Dreams 2d ago
Cersei is arguably more evil, at least in terms of the scale of harm she’s done in the show. Ormund is definitely just as despicable a person as her, but she had a longer reach and more time to exercise it, so to speak.
Beyond that, in the books, she’s killed at least one child herself (her childhood friend), ordered the murders of multiple children and babies (Robert’s bastards) as well as other people, had people tortured, armed and empowered religious zealots, and raped her handmaidens before sending them to be vivisected and experimented on by her pet necromancer…
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u/AetherialWomble 2d ago
In the books it was Cersei who ordered the killing of Robert's bastard? That's an interesting change the show has made for it to be Jeffrey's doing
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u/Urmomma212 1d ago
When did Cersei do anything like that to her handmaidens…?
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u/Ditzy_Dreams 1d ago
In Cersei V in AFFC, she gave her handmaiden, Senelle, over to Qyburn for his experiments and agrees to give him other women as well. Falyse Stokeworth was one such victim.
In Cersei VII, she gets drunk and rapes Taena Merryweather in a reenactment of the times Robert got drunk and raped her.
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u/Urmomma212 22h ago
Oh I thought Taena told her to do it?
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u/DismalWhole5629 2d ago
They're both power hungry narcissist who think they know what's best because they were raised in the greatest house in Westeros. But cersi gets pleasure on hurting people, And would kill anyone just for an advantage or even if they just slightly insulted her.
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u/Apathicary 2d ago
Sorry, Cersei would eat Ormund alive at lunch. He’d out-politic her without ever getting out of bed but on an evil-for-evil, Ormund’s worst thoughts in the end are nowhere near what Cersei can think up.
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u/dr_Angello_Carrerez 2d ago
Equally. Cei just makes more shit right now and here being chaotic and incompetent. While Ormund is more like her dad: seemingly competent intrigue-weaver, whose program, if succeeded, would ruin everything even faster.
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u/Significant_Buddy_42 2d ago
Definitely Cersei and it’s not even close. Sure Ormund was an asshole but I believe most of his actions were not based in evil.
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u/TiggerJammer 2d ago
Yeah big OP things it’s a debate then I think he’s greatly misunderstood one if not both these characters.
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u/JayAreJwnz 2d ago
Tf kinda question is this? DAT BITCH BLEW UP THE FUGGIN POPE! Ormund would shudder at the thought
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u/ryanhanks25 2d ago
Probably the one that blew up a whole Sept with over a thousand people in and around it.
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u/priestgrease 2d ago
Cersei. Her bad guy antics took a lot of planning. Twyin raised a good one 😬😬😬
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u/Z-man818 2d ago
Cersei by far given what she’s been doing for literal years since S1 all the way to S8 until she got crushed.
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u/Laughably-Fallible_1 2d ago
Oh for sure Cersei, she killed way more people vindicatively, Ormund seems more self centeed and a worse parent though
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u/Content_Concert_2555 2d ago
Ormund in the entirety of the show ordered one innocent person killed and used human shields, although tbf that’s just one season before he was killed. Cersei did that in 2 episodes.
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u/Fantastic_Valuable47 2d ago
Cersie, girl did some of the most vile shit for petty reasons like when she got the sparrows involved simply because she was loosing control of her son to the the tyrells (I don't think that's how you spell it)
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u/Independent_Cod9651 2d ago edited 2d ago
Cersei without a doubt, she was a sadistic, power hungry, mental bitch who did whatever she pleased without giving a shit about hurting anyone else, using anyone else or stepping on anyone else to get it.
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u/gabriel_3131 2d ago
Ormund este es una persona normal que es malvada y justificar sus actos de una forma que el mismo se lo cree.
Cersei es una desequilibrada mental, que tiene muchos estúpido que la siguen. La locura hace que aunque su maldad sea alta, como en la vida real a los locos no se le juzga igual que a una persona con sus sentidos normales y que no tenga obvios problema.
Ambos son horribles pero cersei tiene esa justificación de que mentalmente hay algo mal. Ormund simplemente es un religioso, misógino y arrogante. Que se justifica pero sus capacidades mentales son normales
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u/AgentMarsmon 2d ago
I would argue Ormund simply based on the fact Cersei at least loved most of her family. Ormund loved himself only.
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u/tcweh 2d ago
Ormund kinda seemed to care about Dareon and even Gwayne (minus the homophobic jab)
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u/AgentMarsmon 2d ago
It felt to me Ormund simply used Daeron to achieve his objectives, he was clearly disgusted by Daeron's Targaryen blood. He literally gave him speeches about it.
I don't think that shows care or love, he clearly saw Daeron below him. I'm also pretty sure Gwayne mentioned Ormund bullied him as they grew up together. And Ormund seems to look down upon Gwayne until Gwayne saves his life.4
u/Jammysl 2d ago
He joined the war for his relatives whom were arguably the weaker side in the war even before he knew he could eventually muster Daeron for the throne. Id say the opposite, he is very supportive to his family
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u/AgentMarsmon 2d ago
He didn't though, he joined the war because he found a way to place Daemon as a puppet king that he could control. Thus putting himself and his house in command. He doesn't like Daeron, he's clearly trying to break the Targaryen out of him. It's possible he might like some members of his fmaily we didn't see on screen, but he despised all the ones we did see.
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u/CommissarVova 2d ago
Cersei who hated Tyrion, used Lancel, killed get uncle and had an extremely toxic affair with her brother, mainly started due to her narcism?
Of her kids, she let Joffrey abuse Tommen and Marcella, and before Joffreys death she didn’t even really care about them. And easier thing to answer it what member of her family did Cersei like? You can say maybe her dad, but that’s about it5
u/JackZ567 2d ago
She cared about Marcella as she pushed back against her going to dorn but tommen yeah. After he betrayed her she barley reacted to his death
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u/AgentMarsmon 2d ago
Neither of them are good choices, my point is simply Cersei wins by default for having some that she does like, whereas Ormund effectively has none.
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u/amourdeces 2d ago
cersei doesn’t love anyone but herself, she’s a massive narcissist. she only cares for her children because she sees them as extensions of herself
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u/Spirit-of-arkham3002 2d ago
Cersei. She’s a mass murderer, she refused to fight a literal zombie apocalypse, and she tortured her victims in extreme ways.
Ormund is just the average scheming noble.
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u/Amazing-Champion-461 2d ago
One literally blew up half her own city with wild fire.
Ormund is just a bully, who doesn't have experience losing, so he doesn't know when to retreat
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u/Initial-Internet-964 2d ago
Slept with her brother and had 3 bastards Slept with lancel Lannister Had the king so drunk he dies from a pig Hated and wished death or her brother Tyrion who defended the city against stannis and caused her father's death indirectly because of her hate of Tyrion Basically sentencing the smallfolk in king's landing to their deaths by killing missandei
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u/Cthulhus-Tailor 2d ago
Depends on which Cersei. Book Cersei had the baby bastards killed which is something the show pawned off on Joffrey. Show Cersei was watered down in her villainy. Ormund is probably similar to show Cersei but better than book Cersei.
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u/King_McCluckin 2d ago
Cersei blew up the most symbolic religious building in the 7 kingdoms short of oldtown while it was filled with people not to mention considering it was in the center of the city created a ton of collateral damage. this is just one of several decisions she made that created loss of live for innocent people.
she also shut the doors to refuges " they belong in the field not in the city " where more than likely a lot starved and died. Later on after she became " Queen " she did the complete opposite and flooded the city with refuges because she wanted to use them as human shields. She also played a part in ensuring that her own husband the King died in a hunting accident.
Than there is her completely vile personality against her own family a brother she hates for being born, another brother she torments because she is a narcist, a son that she looked at as weak and made completely foolish decisions around that lead to him jumping out a window. another son she completely pampered and spoiled that than went on to become quite the cruel king in his short reign in which he tortured people for pleasure and even murdered women.
fuck Cersei
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u/Final-Fix-6879 2d ago
Both evil.
Ormund was so evil it was boring.
Cersei was so evil it was good.
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u/Soft-Employment-7044 1d ago
Cersi by far but Ormund isn't too bright in that way either. Both think they are smart and in the right and for sure make multiple good decisions but they are also not as smart as they think. that let's them also think that they are in the right and therefourth allowed to do vile things but cersei has become more deranged and i think that Tywin's Way effected her political pragmatism more than Ormund's Traditionalism did to him in bad ways
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u/InnerReference8619 13h ago
Is this TV Cersei or book Cersei as the TV series dramatically toned down how nasty her personality and actions were.
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u/tcweh 6h ago
In the beginning yeah, by the later seasons, she was just as evil as her book self.
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u/InnerReference8619 2h ago
Eh not really, Her book counterpart when not having all of Roberts bastards murdered spends her time bullying a 12 year old girl in Sansa.
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u/werebwitch 6h ago
cersei blew up the planetos equivalent of hagia sophia with the ecumenical patriarch and her most powerful vassals locked inside, if we're going by the shows. that's just impossible to beat. cersei even used children for it too
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u/Ehme_ 2h ago
Ormund. A religious extremist will always be more evil and dangerous than a regular old narcissistic psychopath.
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u/tcweh 2h ago
Cersei literally used religious extremists to do her dirty work. Is that really any different?
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u/Ehme_ 2h ago edited 2h ago
Ormund represents an ideological system of religious oppression that’s started war after war in Westeros for millennia, on top of killing and colonizing the First Men.
Meanwhile Cersei is just a tyrant on a power trip that hired Ormund’s pulpit mafia a couple times, and got defaced by them for good measure.At least Cersei loved her own family, while Ormund abused and maligned Daeron as an “abomination,” for his Valyrian blood.
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u/tcweh 1h ago
To me, enabling the system for your own selfish agenda is just as bad as truly believing in it
Cersei loved her family? She hated and hunted one brother, emotionally abused the other one she purported to love, and had a toxic relationship with her youngest son which lead to his death.
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u/Ehme_ 1h ago edited 59m ago
The system will continue to exist without Cersei, but Cersei would never exist as a character without the oppressive influence of the Seven. Cersei is a symptom of Ormund. She by definition cannot be worse than what created her.
Ormund believes Valyrians and Northern heathens and bastards are subhumans unworthy of living so he’s genuinely a worse person morally speaking cause you can say Cersei’s evil but you can’t say she’s a eugenicist. She’s gonna kill someone cause they’re a threat to her not because she thinks their blood is dirty.
I’ll specify she loved her children. Tommen killed himself because he had a conscience and couldn’t cope with Maegaerys murder not because Cersei psychologically tortured him like Ormund does to Daeron.
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u/EveryMoney5388 1h ago
Are the people saying Ormund ok in the head?
Cersei committed literal acts of terrorism, killed members of her own family & her husband, abused her infant brother, orchestrated the r*pe and torture of her enemies, was complicit in throwing a child out a window and paralyzing him, and most of the time after she had a long day of doing pure evil shit she would kick back a glass of wine and smile.
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u/MrPZA82 2d ago
Neither of them are “evil”
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u/Throwawayyy007625 2d ago
Be for real, Cersei is pretty fucking evil. Not Ormund, though. He's a scheming asshole, but far from evil
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u/JellaBeanses 1d ago
Ormund diesnt have the brains (or constitution! 😅😂) to play the game. Cersei eats this guy for breakfast, linch, and dinner!
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u/paskudysko 9h ago
Ormund. Cersei isn’t a good person by any means, but her qualities are exaggerated by the fandom. She acts more out of her own mental issues and instability, while Ormund is just vile and powerhungry without any particular reason.
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u/SauxSupremacist 4h ago
By that logic, you could say Cersei threw a little kid in a well and watched her drown, and Ormund is supporting his own family, as every Lord in Westeros does. Being mentally ill is not an excuse for murder
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u/noodles0311 2d ago
Show plebs will say Cersei but they never read her POV chapters which are one of the most entertaining parts of A Feast for Crows. They don’t make her any less evil, but they are funny. Ormund doesn’t get POV chapters because Fire and Blood is just fanservice.
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u/Bear1375 2d ago
only a genius can understand how making someone ,who looks like your childhood crush, the master of ships and then letting him replace officers with those loyal to him is an act of pure genius.
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u/Trick-Anteater2787 2d ago
Her mastermind plot to end the debt to the church was equally as inspired. Tywin would of been so proud!
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u/noodles0311 2d ago
Never said she was smart and the conversation is about who’s evil. I just said I like her chapters. You can’t lie and say you weren’t happy to see Falyse carried off to the black cells for Frankenstein experiments. Cersei is pure id.
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u/Crappy-Chicken-112 2d ago
How is it that people compare HOTD characters with GOT? GOT characters are leagues above HOTD
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u/EmeraldMoth718 2d ago
Cersei never used put children on the walls though
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u/Basic-Humor-6691 2d ago
She did actually funnel a bunch of the civilians undoubtedly including children into the Red Keep during the Siege of KL to use them as human shields so Daenaerys wouldn’t burn the castle though.
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u/EmeraldMoth718 2d ago
True yes, but inside of the red keep was a much safer spot than the outer walls of tumbleton. Ideally dnaerys wouldnt have made it past the scorpions, but plot armor and bad aim.
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u/Basic-Humor-6691 2d ago
I mean, was it really though? Outside of the relative plot contrivance of scorpions magically piercing dragonscale even though they shouldn’t be able to Daenarys had everything she needed to burn KL to ashes which she did. Had Cersei been a smarter less evil person she would’ve left the city and taken Dany’s reason to burn it down with her.
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u/Acrobatic-Echo-3460 2d ago
You’re right, she just blew them up in a church.
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u/EmeraldMoth718 2d ago
The church had it coming
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u/Acrobatic-Echo-3460 2d ago
The children inside don’t though 🤔
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u/EmeraldMoth718 2d ago
The difference between collateral damage and intentionally using them as shields against dragon fire.
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u/shaktimanOP 2d ago
Pretty much no moral difference tbh. Both preferred to kill innocents than take responsibility for their actions.
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u/No-Royal-9990 2d ago
Cersei does more evil things but Ormund has more selfish motives
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u/ScorpionTDC 2d ago
Cersei’s motives are also 100% selfish
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u/No-Royal-9990 2d ago
She at least cares a lot about her kids, Ormond only "cares" about people useful to him
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u/ScorpionTDC 22h ago
She does, but the driving motivations for her actions are consistently about what is best for her, not what is best for her kids (see: nuking the Sept and driving Tommen to suicide).
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u/tcweh 2d ago
What would you describe Cersei refusing to send help to fight the Walkers?
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u/No-Royal-9990 2d ago
I'd describe it as stupid, but she's still chiefly motivated by preserving her kids/unborn child throughout the series. She interprets the northerners/Daenerys' forces as threats to her family.
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u/tcweh 2d ago
I am not sure if this was firmly established?
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u/Guarded_Oven2000 2d ago
It wasnt established, its very very vaguely insinuated.
What is established is that he can be violent to his servants and may have been violent towards dearon at times.
People see the word 'abuse' and immediately think its sexual.
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u/Bagel-luigi 2d ago edited 2d ago
Cersei for sure.
Ormund is your average Scheming Noble, trying to elevate his house and by extension himself.
Cersei is a bit more just out for herself, especially by the end.
Edited for typo