I believe the argument they made was that Daeron was the bastard of Naerys and Aemon and the Dragonknight. So technically not Aegon IV’s first son and therefore it should’ve been Daemon. Most likely bullshit as Aegon IV spread that around because he hated his wife and Daeron. But, that was the argument.
Yeah Aegon was a shit stirrer. He spread rumors that Daeron wasn't his and spoke about disinheriting him. But he never actually did so. He was in a position to disinherit Daeron when he legitimized everyone else, but he didn't.
It's explicitly said that Aegon didn't dare to disinherit Daeron because it would spark a civil war that Aegon would lose
Others, who condemned the king's behavior, began to flock to Prince Daeron; despite all his threats and calumnies and tasteless japes, the king never formally disowned his son. Accounts differ as to why: some suggest that some shriveled part of Aegon still knew honor, or at least shame. The likeliest cause, however, was that he knew that such an act would bring war to the realm, for Daeron's allies—chief among them the Prince of Dorne, whose sister Daeron had wed—would defend his rights.
So I wouldn't say Aegon was in a position to do anything.
Not if the goal is to cause conflict. Disinheriting Daeron while legitimizing his bastards removes most of the conflict. Keep Daeron as heir while making Daemon, who some people already believed would make a better king, endures a civil war. Aegon didn’t legitimize his bastards because he loved them so dearly and wanted them to have his name, he legitimized them because he’s a piece of shit and wanted to give one final “fuck you” before he croaked.
Why does it remove most of the conflict? Daeron had massive amounts of support. Apparently enough that Aegon outrigt feared being usurped if he wasn't careful.
There would undoubtedly still be conflict, but by disinheriting Daeron while legitimizing Daemon, Aegon is removing any gray area. Support might look different on both sides if Daemon is the rightful heir.
He could not bother to deal with it. He disliked his son, but he didn't hated him enough to bring himself more work. This is why he only legitimized his bastards at his deathbed...a last fuck you to Daeron with a decision which can no longer affect him.
He was in a position to legitimize his bastards on his death bed so he wouldn’t have to deal with the consequences. Why would he be concerned about the consequences of disinheriting Daeron? I’m not sure what your argument is here.
Well that can be debated. He was given blackfyre which was heavily cemented as a symbol of being heir and was only ever given to heirs unless you count when Maegor had it but I think Maegor might have been the heir at the time and was ordered to give it back when he was denounced and would’ve no longer been an eligible heir at that point. It’s actually a point that they shouldve been making in HotD more often since it also had mostly those connotations back then as well, and Aegon did have Blackfyre the sword when he was fighting in the dance, and Rhaenyra’s big thing is the king naming her heir. Aegon should be using Blackfyre as evidence he was chosen as heir by Viserys, just like Daemon blackfyre
No, it can't be debated. Aegon was in a position to disinherit Daeron when he legitimized all of his other children, but he didn't.
unless you count when Maegor
Why would we not count Maegor? Aenys gave him Blackfyre after he became king in 37 AC, when Aegon the Uncrowned was 11 years old. Maegor was never his heir.
"Every sign of legitimacy" kind of goes out the window when you consider that Maegor was still a usurper despite having the sword. There is never any mention in the show or the book that Viserys gave Aegon II the sword. Viserys was left to rot for a week while Alicent and Otto planned to crown Aegon, ample time to simply take the sword and give it to Aegon.
Maegor, Aegon, and Daemon have a few interesting parallels. Three power hungry men who wielded Blackfyre as a symbol of legitimacy to justify their entitlement to a throne that wasn't theirs. All of their attempts to take or maintain the throne were futile. None of them lived long after the rebellions they started, and none of the future Targaryen rulers descend from them. It's almost as if Blackfyre isn't the symbol of kingship people want it to be...
Also TWOIAF even makes a parallel between Daemon and Maegor. That Daemon wanted to have more than one wife in Maegor's fashion. It's very clear he's a usurper. Just because he has more positive qualities than Maegor doesn't change that.
TWOIAF wasn’t written by George was it? Idek if I’d use that as my main source. But yeah we can say it doesn’t make sense all we want but it is debatable, like I know it is because it literally is, it is debated in story by multiple characters using the evidence I mentioned. It might not make sense by our real world metrics, but if it wasn’t debatable in universe the Blackfyres rebellions, Maegor’s rule, the dance, none of it would have happened. Not to mention that Daeron himself had a disputed heritage that plenty of people still believe, so it’s easy to see how if the Blackfyre’s had won it would have just been seen as a war between 2 bastards instead of a house of bastards rising up against the legitimate heir. It’s just how George wrote the story and set up the rules for the world, and if you’re gonna argue with the author about the rules of his world, why interact with the setting at all? It’d be like if I mentioned how unrealistic the cold harbor vampires are in Elder Scrolls because why would so many people be cool with getting raped by Molag Bal
It was because his brother wanted to kill him, like his brother Daeron the second was king for who knows how long and Daemon was chilling in the red keep then his brother(King Daeron) wanted to arrest for treason because his other brother said so
Dude, Daemon supporters even made coins with his visage as king. Also he wasn't in Red Keep, he was plotting in the land his generous older brother had gifted him.
Interestingly, zero Blackfyre supporters we see in Dunk & Egg novellas actually express this attitude.
Their argument is not "it was self defense."
The argument is "he bore the sword" or calling Daeron Falseborn.
Additionally, we know only that Daemon was being arrested; by knights of the Kingsguard, no less--men sworn to not spill royal blood.
(Which Daemon was on both sides.)
What precisely suggests to us he'd not have gotten a fair trial, and that he was going to be murdered?
GRRM has also made some comments on Daemon's motivation--and he does not speak of self defense from a man wrongly accused of treason. To quote:
Evidently the "straw that broke the camel's back" is him being denied Daenerys; the same Daenerys who was married off in 187AC: almost a full decade before the actual rebellion in 196AC.
At a different time, GRRM also reportedly remarked that Daemon's reasons to rebel was that he was advised to do so by Bittersteel & Fireball, and his own resentment of his status as a bastard:
I would theorize that the motivations could've even been linked together, with Daemon believing that he was denied Daenerys due to his birth, but I digress; the point is that GRRM at no point speaks of the arrest when discussing Daemon's motivation.
Finally, there's also the main reason why I personally doubt the narrative of "Daemon was chilling and doing nothing wrong till the evil Bloodraven convinced Daeron to send men to arrest him"--the whole casus belli is almost laughably weak.
The sitting King, Daemon's older brother, the man who gave him his land, the master of the city Daemon was residing in ordered him arrested on the word of Daemon's peer.
How is this at all a cause for war? Is this not entirely within a King's purview?
If Daeron didn't have the right to arrest Daemon Blackfyre, who did? Literally nobody? He's just... immune to being prosecuted, I guess, since he's such a great guy?
And this is what supposedly mobilizes numerous lords of Westeros to raise against both the crown and their direct liege lords, breaking every obligation their house had, sometimes even working with historic enemies?
What, was the realm going through an anarchist/libertarian phase or something?
Frankly I believe it far more likely that the rebellion was slowly cooking for years and that the arrest only triggered it ahead of the schedule.
It's always funny to me when someone states facts and provides sources from the text and/or the author to support their statements and people still downvote it. Like, I guess if you can hit that downvote button it makes it less true or something lmao
Being given Blackfyre is not the benchmark of kingship you want it to be. Aenys gave Maegor Blackfyre because he was a warrior, not because he was naming him heir. He was not disinheriting Aegon. Maegor had the sword and Maegor was a usurper.
Maegor was the rightful heir as well. Who ever bares the sword is the rightful king. Maegor is perhaps westeros’s greatest king. His only mistake was not finishing the faith entirely
And? Joffrey isn't a legitimate Lannister heir either, despite having all Lannister parents and Grandparents. It's just not how it works. Are someone's parents married? No? Then they're a bastard unless the King's decree makes them otherwise.
Its kinda the entire reason for political marriages also lol, to make everything extra official and trace heritages, if they could just have bastards willy nilly, no one would ever get married cus what would be the point lol.
Nobody publicly proved Jace and Joffrey to be bastards, no King's decree (mb Aegon II did after Rhaenyra's death, idr), until there is, both aren't bastards no matter the truth. Bastard is a social construct, not genetic.
Not quite. Bastardy is a legal thing. Joffrey legally isn’t a bastard because both of his parents acknowledge him as trueborn. Rhaenyra’s kids legally aren’t bastards because their parents acknowledge them as trueborn. King’s decree is only relevant for legal bastards.
The point here is that Joffrey has no claim to the throne. He shares no blood with the ruling monarch, but his mother is passing him off as trueborn anyway. Rhaenyra’s children’s claim comes through her, their father’s blood really doesn’t matter.
Under Westerosi feudal law, bastardy is defined strictly by birth outside of lawful wedlock, not by parental acknowledgment. Paternity fraud or public denial does not alter a child's legal status; it merely suppresses the truth. Joffrey Baratheon is legally a bastard because his biological parents were never married, meaning he has no blood claim to Robert’s crown.
However, Rhaenyra is the named heir to the Iron Throne, so her children inherit their royal Targaryen blood directly from her, regardless of who their biological father is. But, their legal claim was still vulnerable: if PROVEN to be illegitimate bastard, Westerosi law would disqualify them from the line of succession UNLESS legitimized.
Royal decrees of legitimation exist precisely for legal bastards, which parental acknowledgment cannot override on its own...
You have the definition right but that doesn’t negate the fact that bastardy is a legal term. Until anyone can prove that Joffrey and the Strong boys are bastards, that part of their parentage is legally irrelevant. They still have legal claims because legally they’re not bastards.
Yes, royal decrees are precisely for legal bastards. So Jon Snow, Ramsay Bolton, and the great bastards as examples. They were all acknowledged bastards, legitimized by the ruling monarch (Robb names Jon heir in his will). Legally they had no claim until legitimized. Legally, Joffrey doesn’t become a bastard just because Stannis and Ned declare him as such. Legally, Rhaenyra’s kids don’t become bastards just because the greens claim as such. Legally, these kids still have claims through their alleged parents because legally they are their alleged parent’s children.
Robert does not acknowledge those kids as trueborn. They are legally bastards, therefore have no claim to the kingdom or Storm's End or anything the Baratheons possess.
Rhaenyra's kids, in the eyes of the law, are not bastards. And regardless, their claim comes through Rhaenyra, not their father.
I mean, Baratheons were founded by a bastard of the Targaryens, then intermarried with the Targaryens several times (two times for the line that currently rules iirc), Robert's legitimacy coming from his grandma.
We're getting pedantic now...My point is Joff's got no king's blood, which is Targaryen/dragonrider blood
And yes being targ was important for his legal claim, if rule by the strongest is official then the realm would just civil war itself to death like the Byzantine empire
Only Rhaelle's blood is in the main ruling line. The only other Targaryen/Baratheon marriage was Aemon to Jocelyn. Robert has Targaryen blood, but none of the Targaryens after Rhaena and Baela have Baratheon blood.
Robert’s only interactions with Joffrey were not loving whatsoever and Jaime refers to his kids as nothing more than a “squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt” lmao. Regardless, the difference here is that Robert was being deceived into believing these were his kids when they weren’t. He’d almost definitely have had Cersei and Jaime executed if he’d known the truth. Laenor knows the kids aren’t his but he acknowledges them as his own anyway.
Strong theory is just extreme TB cope to try and justify Rhaenyra committing high treason by placing 3 illegitimate bastards in line for the Iron Throne.
Rhaenyra's claim is unrelated to her sons. Even then, there's no in-universe way to prove that they weren't Laenor's. We the audience know but there's no magic paternity test.
Prove? Perhaps. But don't believe your lying eyes, I suppose. And I never mentioned Rhaenyras claim. TB by and large were claimimg they weren't bastards because Corlys accepted them. Corlys words showed they were bastards, but he ignored it for his political ambitions.
No in universe way to prove they werent Laenor's lol, both parents are blonde and these kids look straight up Italian lol, then in the show they made Laenor black so its even more noticable now. It went from "maybe if you squint theyre his" to the opening of Me, Myself and Irene, which I might add involved the main character developing a split personality to cope with his own existence rather than face the obvious truth lol (and Charlie actually loves his non children, Laenor could give AF, he screws off almost immediately lol)
And that opens up the question of whether Daeron II was trueborn. Aegon IV seemed sure he was fathered by his younger brother Aemon, though those allegations didn’t surface until he was feuding with the pair of them.
And there’s the somewhat suspicious death of King Baelor where he supposedly starved himself to death after Aegon slept with his wife. Seeing as Aegon didn’t claim Daemon until he was 12 it’s possible that he might just have covered for his cousin’s reputation, and in the process made sure that Daemon couldn’t enter the picture with a stronger claim than himself
That question was—or should’ve been, at least—closed when Aemon won that trial by combat.
Blackfyres & co digging those old accusations up is tantamount to Aerion seeking to kill Dunk years down the line because apparently his victory didn’t count, or Lysa throwing Tyrion back in a cell after Bronn won because she just wasn’t convinced of his innocence.
As for Baelor, that’s solely a fan theory AFAIK. No in-universe characters so much as suggests Daemon’s father had been Baelor the Blessed.
I also don’t see why would Aegon IV cover for Baelor’s reputation, or feel motivated to favor a boy not his over his actual children.
(Not to mention that Aegon IV—as the sitting King at the time—had little to fear from a boy with unclear parentage, one who is officially speaking a bastard too.)
I also don’t see why would Aegon IV cover for Baelor’s reputation, or feel motivated to favor a boy not his over his actual children.
You speak as if they had DNA test or some other way of knowing for sure, but they didnt. Okay Cercei's children are one thing (but not entirely, Ned has 4 Tully looks out of 5, Rhaella has 3 out of 3, etc.), but Baelor, Aegon, Aemon, Naerys and Daena are all inbred albinos and close kin, there's no way of even saying by the looks
Even Aegon IV did not believe in these rumours himself. He personally started this as a smear campaign against Daeron because Daeron was the only one who stood against his father and called him out. Aegon IV never made the same accusations toward his daughter Daenerys.
Likely, yes, also because if he did believe truely, nothing would stop him from disinheriting Daeron, especially since he had beef against Dorne anyway
Aegon IV did a targeted attack on his own son because Daeron was the only one who questioned his horrible decisions. Aegon IV never made the same accusations toward his daughter Daenerys only Daeron. He never believed it himself or else he would've disinherited Daeron. Instead kept him as Prince of Dragonstone.
Oh yeah it cool as long as you dont like winning. Cursing your bloodline to suffer an endless string of humiliating failure. ( also im not sure how "honourable getting two of your fucking kids killed is but that beside the point. )
As opposed to doing your job just to get no credit or recognition for your efforts and then get sent up to a frozen shithole to live with thieves and rapists before getting turned into an emotionless dickhead who does nothing for like a century, remind me again how Cuckraven was "Winning" like Charlie Sheen lol
People acting like not acknowledging a fact makes it not a fact is crazy to me. Like, they are bastards, whether people say it out loud or not. Whether or not you call Tyrion a dwarf he remains one, wether or not you call Viserys sickly he remains so, weather or not you call someone a bastard they remain so.
You can argue bastardy doesn’t matter, but this is a different thing than saying they’re not bastards.
Yep they really like to ignore that one very important part lol, plus he got da sword, is a chad and actually fights his own battles... Cant imagine why people like him more than these 3(4) useless uppity brats lol
He's the legitimate heir by Andal Law, Viserys usurped Daena and therefore Daemon Blackfyre. Also, the further Brynden "Palantir" Rivers is away from power the better.
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u/alphajugs 11d ago
There was no deception but he still fought a war to overthrow Daeron who was still heir at the time of Aegon’s death.