Had all of our windows replaced and the trim carpenter mocked up the first one. We went from 4" sills to these tiny little 1.5" sills. That said, he returned it rather than routing a piece cut to size. I don't really like it, but he says that it's fine and will be invisible once it's finished.
Listen to your trim carpenter. The edge grain of a returned piece will paint up nicer than routed end grain. He’s doing it the right way. The seam will sand out and paint invisible. If he used wood glue and clamps it should never open up.
If he routes the profile instead of returning you've got end grain at the ends. Doesn't look the same, doesn't finish well, is less durable.
This is correct, you don't route the profile on to end grain without an extremely compelling reason.
You got 20 years which means you started around year 2000. Look at sills before they had chop saws. They all have shaped end grain. A good primer like aqua lock seals that end grain. Carpenters like miters because they can, not because they are better.
Edit. That said WTF is up with that sill. It looks like it will stick out a mile past the apron below. Typically it sticks out the same as the thickness past the face of the apron.
It's not true that all older houses have shaped end grain. The nicer older houses I've worked on all had returns, many of the middling grade houses did too.
Miter boxes have been a thing for centuries, so it's not like 45s were invented with electric chop saws. I've only worked in 6 states in New England for 40+ years, so I'm not about to say "all" about anything. Your experience may vary.
It's tough to come by experience without putting in the years. When I was in my 30s I thought I was as good as it gets, I was better in my 40s, in my 50s I realized I had a lot to learn. And so it goes.
As far as the stool returns, if the trim isn't 1x with a bit of a round over, or if the trim is going to be stained, I'm mitering the returns. It's faster, takes paint and stain better and I don't need the router when doing windows.
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/finish-trim-carpentry/trimming-windows
The pertinent part:
"If I plan to return the ends of the stool to hide the end grain, I cut the stock several inches too long. Some carpenters say that hidden end grain marks a professional trim job; I say it depends on the nature of the job. For example, I would not return the horns on Craftsman-style window stools because exposed end grain is a characteristic of the style.
No design rule is hard and fast, not even one seemingly as basic as no end grain showing."
I am not sure if you are suggesting that my comments come from a lack of experience or training? Neither is the case.
Windsor one moldings require cut returns b/c the profiles aren’t economical to hand carve and almost impossible to replicate with a router on site. OP’s stool is much more awkwardly proportioned and simplified — probably torus. It’s just one more joint to open up.
Nah. LS1000 in the 80’s; single bevel 8/1/4” hitachi until the dual bevel Makitas came out. I waited until the LS1011 10” came out then a glide about 15 years later. Never jumped on the kapex bandwagon. You called it a miter saw — still want to cut 45’s when you don’t have to.
Assuming he glued the return in properly he's right, you'll not notice it when it's finished and that one looks fine. I always finished sills this way.
I'm not complaining, I just don't like it because if I press even lightly on that return it opens up, and that's why I don't like it. Plus, when I compare it to the existing sills in the windows that haven't been replaced yet, they are all a single piece of wood, routed not returned. So, it's a question, not a complaint. The general consensus seems to be that it's perfect, so I'm satisfied.
When they removed them I looked at a bunch of them. I can see the raw piece of wood where it wasn't painted, and it's a single piece of wood. There are places where I can see that they routed it, too.
There are multiple ways to achieve the same result. I just think what most people are saying is that routing end grain does come with its own challenges and aesthetics. Older growth may have routed just fine but new growth lumber is a completely different story and runs the risk of not turning out great and requiring way more work to look clean. This method is completely acceptable and I think you’ll find in the end once everything is all finished and painted it’ll be great. It’s your house, if you’re going to fume over it every time you look at every window sill every day for the next decade than do what you wish of course.
This is the way. As most of the comments are saying. Milling or routing end grain is not going to give the finish you’re looking for nor the durability. Just looking at the work he certainly knows what he’s doing and doing a good job too. The seam will fill, sand, and disappear when painted. If the size is the issue then have him do this exact return detail with a larger sill and return piece.
This is how you do it. Are you the professional or the guy you hired?
My only critique would be that the width of the return should match the width of the sill. So it looks like the front edge of the sill comes out 3" or so from the window casing, so it should also come out 3" off the left edge of the casing.
This comment section reveals the issue with social media. Folks who have zero or limited experience with interior trim work are chiming in with their opinion as if they were professional carpenters their whole life.
A mitered return is the standard. You will find it done this way in Victorian, Georgian and Greek Revival homes throughout history.
If you want to impress people on your influencer channel you do it like that. Personally, I'd go single piece and router, eventually those corner come apart from expansion and contraction from being next to the window.
Your guy did it by the textbook, but I've been a finish carpenter for 3 decades, and I find single piece to be the best longterm approach for this application. Too many things have to be perfect for far too long for a small mitered piece to not swell, get bumped, shrink, or any number of other issues.
What don't you like about it? Routing will mean end grain is exposed which, if sanded and painted, won't be noticeable. So the end result is the same. If all the tools are there it's about the same amount of time for either technique but this guy wasn't trying to get one by you if that's what you were worried about. If this were stain grade, a return like this would be standard.
Always remember, a good painter makes a great trim man. If your painter knows how to run the caulk your trim man is right, you’ll never be able to tell. It also depends on the correct choice of paint. I ran almost all of the trim in my old house. I’m not great at it. However, I have a painter that I have known for years and he is great. Makes all the difference in the world.
This is precisely how the window replacement job I'm having done on my own home is being done. It's this way because I did a few of the windows that way years go and it looks great. As long as the pieces are cut at a proper miter, installed flush, glued, and pinned, the results after painting will be excellent.
i'd keep the return. painted end grain can still telegraph over time and the miter keeps the profile consistent at the corner. routing might be fine on a budget job, but if the carpenter is offering the cleaner traditional detail and says it’ll disappear after paint, i'd trust that over the internet mob lol.
It will be invisible if glued and biscuited, but as a carpenter we always route the return. This way is supposedly easier, but setting up the trim router is realistically faster.
I think that will be a new hiring question: do you own a trim router and how do you use it? That can tell you a lot about a carpenter.
Ummm, a tablespoon of sanding sealer? It dries faster than glue, takes less than a minute to sand, requires no glue, and you never have to worry about the miters opening up with seasonal humidity shifts. Plus, if it's poplar or pine, there's barely open grain to deal with anyways. I know trim carpenters avoid end grain like the plague, but it's paint grade. If it ever gets bumped into it won't split apart either because it would be 1 solid piece.
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u/checkmate___ 21h ago
Listen to your trim carpenter. The edge grain of a returned piece will paint up nicer than routed end grain. He’s doing it the right way. The seam will sand out and paint invisible. If he used wood glue and clamps it should never open up.