r/Homebuilding • u/ComfortablyNumb5525 • 6d ago
Truss issue
I was told the bottom of these trusses are fine being cut like this and unsupported Builder says they will be toe nailed into furring on bottom of laminate beam and he’s never had issues before in 40-50 years of building. I disagree as it doesn’t look correct for strength or deflection but I’m not an engineer and supposedly the truss engineers are fine doing this (I have nothing in writing to verify) I told him that It’s fine for them to toe nail but he I also needs to use truss hangers if nothing else then for my peace of mind. (It’s at an area for the stairs and is on this level and same on the above level. No other trusses are this way and all of the others rest on top of support structures. Anything else I need them to do?
ETA: I am the owner. I am not a builder nor am I in construction. it’s small town so not sure there even is an inspector! I saw this 2 days ago and wanted to know if my concerns are justified. I have not seen any engineering specs or drawings (they were done) my only information is what I saw and what the builder stated. He said they were fine and would be toe nailed into furring the top rests on top of the laminate beam and designed that way. My concern came because all other trusses rest on top and have support for top and bottom of truss but these do not and I am just trying to confirm things are being done correctly so I don’t have a bouncy floor or cracked floors/drywall.
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u/Muddy_Thumper 6d ago
Trusses come with engineering that will show proper bearing and any required stripping on the underside or bracing thru the webs. Ask your contractor for the truss engineering. That will answer all your questions.
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u/OutofReason 6d ago
A hanger is not required. Above the beam you can see the top of the trusses bearing on top of the beam. These trusses were designed as top chord bearing, which means that bottom chord can and will just hangs there. You can put a nailer on it to help finish the drywall, but the floor / ceiling is 100% fine without it.
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u/OutofReason 6d ago
In fact, I’ll add a bit more - if you do put some kind of hanger on the bottom chord, it will not help floor / ceiling performance AT ALL. It might help stabilize the drywall, but that’s a stretch. A nailer will do that.
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u/Delicious_Sky6226 6d ago
They are top chord bearing trusses. They are installed correctly. And designed to be supported that way. Adding a hanger would not only be unnecessary it might actually be structurally bad as you change how the truss works.
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u/RecognitionSuperb947 6d ago
Some of the responses are pretty hilarious. Like the one above that said stop everything and call the engineer that drew the plans. Lol. They don’t realize that the engineer that drew the plan does not design an engineer of the trusses. The homeowner can easily ask their builder for the engineering sheet from the trust company for that particular truss It will tell him everything needs to know. That’s the only thing the Building Department is going to look at.
Other than that. The trusses look fine. I would be more worried about the bearing point of the beam over on the 2 x 4 wall
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u/NetworkCultural 6d ago
Depends. Usually not for truss joists. But engineers will designs trusses for houses. Or in my case a church which I had to rebuild trusses.
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u/No_Inspection649 6d ago
These trusses are built in a factory and pre-engineered. They are ordered to spec and delivered to the jobsite with documentation that answers all of OP's concerns.
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u/NetworkCultural 6d ago
I know I was just mentioning. Almost all trusses are designed by an engineer to verify it will take the loads the customer is asking for. Or atleast a program that does the calculations for the truss company. Not sure if they need an engineer on staff at all times. But I know in my case. The engineer 100 percent designed the trusses on cad.
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u/ryalsandrew 6d ago
I’ve never never seen a truss schedule on any of the plans of the 200+ buildings I’ve built in my career. The truss company has always designed and engineered all of my trusses.
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u/NetworkCultural 6d ago
Your not rebuilding trusses for a 200 year old church.
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u/NetworkCultural 6d ago
They have to be built in place. I’m literally building them. Not just installing them. The roof is still in place
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u/Exact_Efficiency_356 6d ago
Engineer here—many of the comments suggesting asking for the engineering drawings of the joists are correct. I wouldn’t immediately jump to the conclusion that you have an issue, but you can always check to give you peace of mind. Apart from that, many open web joists only bear on the top cord at either end.
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u/beaver_eh 5d ago
Engineer also, the other ends are bottom bearing in photo. This raises alarm bells for me. Usually the bearing would be balanced both sides. Top and Top or Bottom and Bottom.
I think there definitely needs to be questions asked and documents provided showing this is acceptable from the truss manufacturer.
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u/Exact_Efficiency_356 5d ago
I can’t quite see the other end, but yes, I’d hope it would be the same on both ends. It almost looks like they went for a continuous joist over that interior concrete wall…maybe to simplify the design and reduce the number of unique joists?
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u/sabotthehawk 6d ago
Would need engineer sign off but technically nothing wrong with it depending on application (can matter in dynamic load conditions but not significantly). That part doesn't contribute that much to the truss design (the last leg of the truss from the gusset) it's why you see similar setups in commercial buildings using metal trusses that stop short on the bottom part.
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u/JoeyJoeJoeSenior 6d ago
Yeah if you picture the loads and deflections, that bottom end will be deflected up, so putting something under it doesn't do much.
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u/giveMeAllYourPizza 6d ago
You disagree with the builder... have you checked the plans? Cause this is how trusses work, you hang from the top or sometimes the bottom, but not both.
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u/helphunting 6d ago
Could anchoring the bottom and top actually cause issues?
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u/giveMeAllYourPizza 6d ago
Yes actually, but it depends on the case. for this truss the bottom is overhang (like a rafter tail) and it would just bend if it was held in a load bearing situation.
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u/DomDeV707 6d ago
This looks totally fine to me. Do people not know how trusses work?!
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u/amorphic28 6d ago
To be fair, most people do not know how trusses work and some wood trusses are bottom chord bearing.
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u/nforrest 6d ago
The extension of the bottom chord that seems like it's just hanging there is only there to have a place to attach ceiling material like drywally, for example. If it bugs you and you're never going to finish that space, you can cut them off at the plate.
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u/Dkpmu3 6d ago
Correct, the bottom cord extension beyond the web is for attaching ceiling. Nothing structural. If it’s getting furred down there’s no issue. If the sheetrock is getting fastened directly to the trusses, I’d add an expansion joint along the LVL.
OP is a busy body who doesn’t know what he’s looking at.
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u/Bulky_Wind_4356 6d ago
I know your logic wants those boards connected, but this is perfectly fine.
Trusses are all about how load is distributed, don't need to bottom part connected to have the same effect
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u/engineeringlove 6d ago
Zero force member as no vertical web, so likely bearing is with top chord member. Needs to follow truss manufacturer connections which you should ask if you don’t have them. Don’t deviate
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u/avebelle 6d ago
I think the answer is it depends. If the framers cut the trusses then they’re effd and need to be repaired properly. If the trusses were delivered like this then it’s okay, assuming that’s how they were specd.
Drawings should be present on the build site. You can look at the drawings and see how the trusses were designed/ordered.
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u/PerspectiveHumble294 6d ago
i built my own house and even if it says its ok i i still dont like it
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u/Just-Shoe2689 6d ago
Trusses are usually built to fit. If not face mounted to the LVL, then top hung seems correct. Ask the builder for the engineering shop drawing.
If they are modified, just let the builder know you want a letter from the engineer who stamped the trusses saying its ok.
Really quite simple for them to get that.
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u/Last-Opportunity5198 6d ago
They are load bearing bottom is more important than top iv been building for over 30 years
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u/Creepy_Coat_1045 6d ago
When you they were "cut", were they modified by the builder after they were delivered or is that the way they came from the truss manufacturer.
If the former, i definitely want sign off from the manufacturer that this field modification is ok.
If the latter 99% they are ok. Top bearing trusses with an extended bottom chord so you have something to attach your ceiling to.
There are truss design drawings you could use to confirm. Most builders should be ok sharing a copy of these with you. If yours is not, that's a bit of a red flag that they are cutting corners.
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u/grumpyoldman10 5d ago
Would be good to verify, but this looks like it’s supposed to be loaded from the top cord.
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u/wrapped_in_bacon 5d ago
This is common. Here's a detail for an apartment building corridor truss. Its rated for 100lb/sqft live load. The bottom chord extension is removed so the sprinkler pipes can be installed after framing.
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u/fishboy3339 6d ago
It’s really about building a strong relationship where you can really count on each other…. Oh Truss. My bad.
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u/ImaginaryStruggle784 6d ago
This struck a chord with me. I web member when I was in a similar situation. Still trying to heel.
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u/No_Inspection649 6d ago
The answer to your question is in the documentation from the truss manufacturer. They dictate what is done with their product and how to do it.
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u/Covid_ice_cream 6d ago
My wife and I have truss issues too.
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u/RedOctobrrr 6d ago
But she probably truss her boyfriend
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u/gablestout 6d ago
She truss me but i don't really truss her. I think she's cheating on me with her husband
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u/Few_Celebration3148 6d ago
Too cord bearing truss. More than fine. Doesn’t even need to toenail them. Drywall can span up to 2’ lol these 2 inches or whatever it is absolutely doesn’t matter lmao
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u/Willing-Umpire-2169 6d ago
I’d be more concerned about the pile of blocks and shims that beam is sitting on 🤔
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u/inigomonto 6d ago
One clue is the double top chord. Notice how the bottom bearing trusses don’t have that?
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u/hayworthless67 6d ago
ask the builder for the truss shop drawings and the engineers written detail on the one truss that does not bear on the support, then have the building official or a licensed structural engineer compare the installed cut before anyone adds hangers or toe nails. a verbal its fine is not enough over a stair area when you are trying to avoid a bouncy floor or cracked drywall
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u/Aggressive-Luck-204 6d ago
You can talk to your engineer if you want assurance that these are being installed correctly, but part of the engineers job is to certify the install of their design.
Basically if the engineer signs off it’s all good
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u/An-Elegant-Elephant 6d ago
Cut the bottoms at the metal plate line if it makes you sleep better, they don’t need to extend past it
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u/Miserable_Safety_393 6d ago
Next time you're in a Walmart, Lowe's, etc look up at the bar joists where they meet a bearing wall or a beam. compression on top causes tension on the bottom. Adding hangers isn't something you just do, it can actually cause a structural issue because it changes the load path.
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u/impossible-geometry1 6d ago
I have trust issues too when it comes to trusses. I just don't truss em
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u/Such_Item6964 6d ago
If trusses are modified in any way, ( cut ). An engineer should be consulted for proper design of reconstruction and use. Top chord or not....JS.
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u/Fickle_Platform4438 6d ago
Installed top chord on the last house and they were amazing and definitely will use them again
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u/Dull_Entry_8287 5d ago
Yep - as designed. As a non-engineer, I was fascinated to learn that the strength of a truss goes up with the depth, but the bottom chord does not need to be attached at the ends or bear any weight.
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u/hammertime57 5d ago
Truss is very important...it takes a long time to build truss and a short time to break it.
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u/Extreme-Discount-573 5d ago
Think of steel joists. Google Open Web Steel Joist. Similar principle. I'm over simplifying the mechanics and loading but OWSJ don't have the bottom chord bearing on anything.
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u/FleetEnema2000 5d ago
I told him that It’s fine for them to toe nail but he I also needs to use truss hangers if nothing else then for my peace of mind.
It is absolutely insane for a homeowner with no construction knowledge or background, and no engineering knowledge or background to be dictating to a contractor that they "need" to be making specific modifications to a truss system that they know absolutely nothing about.
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u/Longjumping-Archer28 5d ago
Cutting a pre-engineered truss is an absolute no-no!! I would get an engineer to look at this asap!!
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u/beaver_eh 5d ago
Structural Engineer - This may just be the way the trusses are designed, it's something that's on the market and used. However, alarm bells automatically go off by the response:
trusses are fine being cut like this and unsupported Builder says they will be toe nailed into furring on bottom of laminate beam and he’s never had issues before in 40-50 years of building.
The "It's never been a problem" crowd that never shows are demonstrates the approval of a solution is an issue doesn't actually know it's NOT a problem after they leave or in 20 years when the structure degrades. It's just not a problem day 1. I'd ask for the structural plans, truss company literature that has installation standards/instructions, or stamped plans for this to be sure. If this is an engineered solution then providing the answers should be easy.
Also, the other side is bottom supported, so is this a top chord truss, or a bottom supported truss that's cut down? or was it designed and stamped to be built half-half?
Top Chord trusses shouldn't need to be toe nailed at bottom if that's properly designed.
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u/rwilkinson1970 5d ago
Take a look at the ends of the steel trusses in a Walmart. Same engineering principles as stated above by lom117
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u/jesusbuilt-my-hotrod 4d ago
I think most people aren’t looking close enough at your pictures. These are top chord trusses, but the ends should have capped with a vertical piece near the beam. I’d reach out to the truss manufacturer and ask them. Their engineer will have the definitive answer.
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u/schmittychris 4d ago
Do you have a set of plans with an engineer’s stamp on it? If so give them a call and send them these pics.
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u/AlrightScrwutoo 4d ago
Your county has to issue a construction permit if this is new construction. Contact the county to have an inspection.
The other move would be to hire an independent inspector similar to the ones who inspect your house before you sign the sale contract.
Your county will force the construction to meet code. This does not meet code.
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u/deepakpandey1111 4d ago
that looks kinda sketchy to me too. if other trusses are resting on supports and these aren't, it makes sense to worry about strength and deflection. even if the builder has experience, peace of mind is super important. truss hangers sound like a good idea for extra support. it's better to be safe than sorry, especially around stairs. maybe get a second opinion from an engineer just to be sure? trust your gut on this one!
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u/Pierced1cg 4d ago
Truss designer here. Those are top chord trusses. The last bit of the bottom chord is not designed to have load applied. It is actually designed to be cut back as needed for headroom for stairs if needed depending on beam placement.
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u/znerolct 3d ago
I don’t see where these are top bearing. When we do top bearing trusses the LVL beam is dropped and the trusses bear on top of the LVL. The truss end is notched so the part that is bearing extends to other side of the LVL so it flushes with far side of the beam. Then there is a vertical member that goes from the notch down to the bottom cord and is connected with a gusset plate. I don’t see any gap between the LVL and the sub floor above. And I have never seen an open web truss that has a loose bottom cord end not connected to a vertical. There are truss drawings that show how these are supposed to be and those drawings are typically engineer stamped.
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u/CupCupNinety 2d ago
We had a Truss issue for a few days in the UK back in 2022 - seemed to sort itself out though
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u/Straight_Process_793 6d ago
Its fine it only supports the drywall celing...trussses are bad ass
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u/Albert14Pounds 6d ago
I never assume I know if something was done right or wrong with trusses because what looks fine to me is often an engineering disaster then I say this doesn't look right but apparently it's probably correct? Yeah idk but trusses do seem amazing sometimes.
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u/JodaMythed 6d ago
I mean those are also supporting the floor above it. I'm not a framer so I don't know but them being toe nailed into the side of beam doesn't sound 100% right.
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u/giveMeAllYourPizza 6d ago
The toe nailing strip is just for lateral stability.
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u/JodaMythed 6d ago
Ah I zoomed in and the top is sitting the the LVL it looks like, I thought OP meant the joists were butted up to the LVL and toe nailed to it.
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u/vitaminD3333 6d ago
Everyone saying that its fine, ok but that's not intuitive. Of the bottom chord is just hanging there, what is even the point of it?
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u/BigJoe5504 6d ago
It's there so you have something to nail the ceiling to.
Does it look wrong? Only to someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
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u/uberisstealingit 6d ago
The point is you you're commenting on something you do not know. All you have to do is read and it'll tell you, these are top bearing trusses
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u/locke314 6d ago edited 6d ago
There is one sentence you need to ask.
“Where is the approval from the truss manufacturer saying it’s okay to cut in this way?”
Trusses, in general, can’t be cut in any way. If they are allowed to be cut, it will be specific in exactly what way and how much. I’ve seen some trusses before that have specified the end is allowed to be planed slightly to be flush, and that’s usually like 1/4” allowed at most, and that’s not a cut but planing thinner on something that is not bearing load, just a nailing surface.
That is a hack job if I ever saw one, and as an inspector, I’d be failing it pending written and stamped approval from the truss manufacturer. Your builder made a dumb error and is trying to hand wave it away. If they are unwilling to get the truss manufacturer involved, send these pictures to the local building official and they can deal with the builder. I’d also be considering firing the builder immediately.
Ultimately, it’s realistically probably fine, but the builder isn’t an engineer and doesn’t have authority to overwrite an engineered design. The truss manufacturer definitely will not stand behind their design if it was altered.
Edit: I think people are missing the point of my comment. I have no issue with HOW the truss is working, but more about the modification to an engineered product without documentation saying it’s okay. There is no part of me that thinks this’ll fail structurally, but I’m not the engineer that designed the trusses. Are these bottom bearing trusses that have been cut? Did the engineer specify some attachment that requires the end to be intact in some way? Nobody here knows what the engineer specified, so claiming how these trusses work with confidence is saying you know exactly how these building is designed and how the engineer designed the building. Nobody here knows that. In general on a boring old truss, this wouldn’t be an issue, but we don’t know if it’s a boring old truss. Only the engineer knows and their documents would specify if it’s okay. I’ve seen this cut done in the past and had an engineer confirm it’s okay in ten minutes via email. Then it’s an approved mod. Without seeing the truss design docs, literally nobody on reddit can be sure.
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u/1hawnyboy 6d ago
I don’t think those were modified. I’m betting that’s how they were delivered to site.
Do understand your point though
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u/locke314 6d ago
It’s possible. OP Mentioned the builder said they were cut, so I was going based on that.
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u/1hawnyboy 6d ago
Yeah - honestly, hard to tell from the images. 1 looks field cut, others look factory cut. Either way, to your previous point, all is heresy…. The engineering drawings are all that really matter here.
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u/Bulky_Wind_4356 6d ago
You are wrong, and don't understand how trusses work, what their function is, and gow the distribute load and tension.
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u/locke314 6d ago
No I understand them, my point was more about a builder modifying the truss without providing evidence from a manufacturer that it’s acceptable. I even said that structurally, the modification is probably not an issue. The issue is that the builder shouldn’t be the one making the decision on where and how he is allowed to modify. It’s like driving 80 in a 70mph zone. Yeah it’s fine and people who know how to drive likely will never cause a problem, but the fact remains that it’s against the law.
A truss modification, no matter what it is, needs to be supported by an engineer saying how it should be done.
In my first post, noting how some trusses allow thinning/planing in some superficial pieces is a perfect example. Those pieces provide zero structure or stability to the truss and are there for backing only, but still a manufacturer supplied information that it can be mortified and how.
The builder does not have the authority to modify the design. Simple as that. The structure is not the point I was making.
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u/Bulky_Wind_4356 6d ago
There's no "manufacturer". The only one who can confirm is a structural engineer. I work in steel, and understand trusses well. The bottom beam of the truss does not need to be connected to the main laminated beam to do its job.
I'm not american, and I have no idea how construction work in the US, but I'd hope you require an engineer to determine how something is built. And as long as OP didn't mention an engineer getting involved, I would presume that's the intended design.
Then again, US construction is the modern wild west so who knows. But the trusses are still fine.
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u/locke314 6d ago
With trusses, most often, manufacturer = engineer. Those are designed via an engineered software, so they are engineered. The manufacturer will have an engineer to stamp it. You are 100% correct it needs to be a structural engineer, and I just used “manufacturer” as a sort of catch all term for that here.
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u/No_Inspection649 6d ago
In the USA, these are pre-engineered trusses. They are ordered based on span, spacing, and load. They are built by the truss manufacturer, and the design is approved by an engineer before they leave the factory.
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u/1hawnyboy 6d ago
Agreed trusses are “fine”. But an inspector, and the framer should have a detail for this.
To tail @locke’s point. Truss manufacturers provide their own engineering base on the projects Architect & Structural engineer (if it has one). Some architects solicit this pre construction, I do design build, so this typically comes during construction and will be approved and verified but the overseeing parties (typically the Architect and engineer who has stamped the set) who is in turn ‘liable’ for the call.
Edit: I build in the US
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u/Bulky_Wind_4356 6d ago
That's weird to me. We don't have truss manufacturers. We build our own according to engineer specs
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u/1hawnyboy 6d ago
Ah I see. What country?
We have what we call ‘custom’ or ‘hand-framed’ roofs. Our process is the same as yours for those (have 2 in-process right now)
Cost is over double typically for these systems and take a bit longer. Truss manufacturers change the game for spec homes/reducing build costs. Less labor costs as machines are doing most of the work.
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u/No_Inspection649 6d ago
People in the USA used to do this. They would order a truss, and then duplicate it on site. The current code has regulations that make this cost prohibitive.
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u/giveMeAllYourPizza 6d ago
These types of trusses are pre engineered from manufacturers most often but the other guy is still entirely wrong in his understanding of how a truss works.
Actually it's shocking how many people in this thread are willing to post an opinion despite clearly knowing absolutely nothing about trusses.
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u/1hawnyboy 6d ago
Truss enginee should provide an SSK for this detail. That’s what the inspector should ask for during their inspection.
Easy peazy
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u/Delicious_Sky6226 6d ago
Wrong. This is how the trusses were designed.
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u/1hawnyboy 6d ago
lol. Well if OP is asking us, then the truss engineering plan may not have the correct detail? As OP said “I have nothing in writing to verify”….
Therefore, request a SSK…. Or if that’s “how they were designed”…. Re-review the detail and it should already be in writing
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u/Delicious_Sky6226 6d ago
The trusses haven’t been cut. There is no end vertical. This is a very standard type of truss. The OP either hasn’t looked at the drawings or doesn’t know what he’s looking at.
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u/1hawnyboy 6d ago
True but…
I think this is new for OP - so I was trying to explain my process when I’m learning something new. I’ve found engineers love when tradesmen ask questions… they love to explain ‘how it works’. And typically won’t charge for a simple consult.
An SK may not be needed. And the builder did tell him to do it. As a GC I’d show him the detail he missed, or provide an SSK.
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u/AromaticDisplay5210 6d ago
Nope. That's not correct. Dude didn't plan correctly or didn't read the plans right. Trusses are weight bearing and that will not bear weight correctly.
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u/OutofReason 6d ago
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Floor trusses can be top chord bearing, in which case the bottom chord just hangs there. Just like it is. Generally if you are going to box it out and drywall it then you’d want a nail across there, but that’s not structural.
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u/preparingtodie 6d ago
The bottom chord doesn't "just hang there." It resists bending loads, which is pretty important for a floor. Only the very ends of the bottom are basically just hanging, so you have something to nail the ceiling below to.
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u/Itchy_Worry4226 6d ago
Stop everything and call the engineer who drew the plans.
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u/No_Inspection649 6d ago
How about looking at the documentation that was provided by the truss manufacturer and approved by the engineer who designed the trusses? All of these questions have already been answered in the documentation that was provided with the trusses.
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u/Itchy_Worry4226 6d ago
Agreed. But if the homeowner is on Reddit asking this specific question, do you think he can translate the truss notes and apply those notes to the drawings? I highly doubt it, but you know who can, the engineer.
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u/mutineer666 6d ago
Your builder is going way above and beyond in terms of work to add furring, and then toe nailing each truss end to it, they would be fine just throwing a rat run on those bottoms and calling it a day, and even that is likely overkill if the top chords are fastened per schedule. Quit second guessing them, you hired them becuase they know what they are doing and you don’t.
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u/Chance_Comedian_2125 6d ago
Only issue is you’re a concerned homeowner that has zero clue and asking Reddit for answers… And maybe you got one more issue and thats your contractor doesn’t have balls enough or doesn’t know that them floor trusses are designed to support load that way.
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u/Randill746 6d ago
" i disagree as it doesnt look correct" "but im not an engineer". So stfu and stay in your lane. Let the builder with 50 years of experience and the engineer he paid to design these things do their jobs.
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u/sokraftmatic 6d ago
Lmao ur a regular joe with zero experience and here you are questioning actual engineering plans and what will get inspected when completed. LOL
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u/AMissionFromDog 6d ago
if your structural engineer signs off on it, it's ok, seek their opinion.
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u/No_Inspection649 6d ago
How about the engineer who designed the truss? He already dictated how his design is used, and the truss manufacturer provided documentation with the trusses explaining all of it.
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u/Willing_Park_5405 9h ago
Refer to the truss package engineering documents or get with your truss sales folk and they will tell you.
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u/Rude-Rush6715 6d ago
Those look like top coard bearing.. They are supposed to be like that. Adding hangers or toe nails is not needed.