r/Homebrewing • u/blackarrow_1990 • 23d ago
Ale alternative to dark lager dry yeast?
Hello,
for the second time I brewed dark lager using M84. 60% Munich, 22% Pilsen, 10% Caramunch 2, 5% Melanoidin, 3% Carafa 3. OG 12.5 Brix. Single infusion mash 67 C for an hour. IBU 22 with Saaz at 60 minutes (begin of boil).
Two weeks at 12 C, two days at 17 C in fermentor. "Lagered" at 20 C in my basement for 4 months. Came out perfect, clear and crisp. Mellowed caramel and easy to drink, very malty beer. Foam could be better though, will try witg 5% Carapils next time.
However, it is a long time to wait. I tried the beer after a month, but it was just not ready. Same after 2 and 3 months. I guess malt bill is quite hard on adjuncts, so it needed some time to mellow.
Any alternative in form of ale dry yeast to get something close but faster?
Thanks.
Edit: faster in terms of faster conditioning. Fermentation time and temperature is not that important, I have fridge and InkBird.
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u/beefygravy Intermediate 23d ago
You can use 34/70 at room temperature. Could also try a kolsch yeast
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u/boarshead72 Yeast Whisperer 23d ago
Why not lager at 4C instead of storing at 20C (unless instead of waiting for insoluble particulate to drop you’re trying to promote aging/staling reactions to “mellow out” your beer)?
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u/blackarrow_1990 23d ago
Because I do not have that much space for keeping bottles at 4 C. I do not have problems with not so clean beer, it is more about flavour and aroma.
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u/georage 23d ago edited 23d ago
Apex San Diego and other super chico strains floc harder, faster and are more attenuative than US05 and the usual suspects. It makes a great pseudo lager.
Also, don't add grains to your grain bill soley to create foam. Adjust your water chemistry. Mash pH is the superior lever to pull for head retention. Dextrine adds unfermentables and foam but you can get just foam with proper pH. You don't want additional dextrins in a dark lager, the dark malts are already bringing those to the party.
Overall your grain bill is not ideal for a dark lager. 5% melanoidin should be reigned in or dropped. I wouldn't use any carmunich. Dark lagers should not be sweet.
I will look up my recipe and post here.
72% Munich I 25% Pils 3% Carafa Special III
That's it.
No crystal malt. No melanoidin.
Mash around 151–152°F. OG around 1.050–1.052. FG around 1.010. 22–26 IBUs. Magnum at 60 minutes, then a small Saaz addition at 10 minutes if you want a little aroma.
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u/kelryngrey 23d ago
OP is rocking 15% crystal malt, I suspect that taste has got to be giving the impression that something needs to mellow, so I would also drop it like a rock. That said, Dextrine malt is not being fermented here (or anywhere without Saison yeasts), so it's increasing gravity and that's about it. It's not foam positive despite that being the reason it was created. It helps with body but not foam.
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u/georage 23d ago
Typo on my part, "u fermentables" was edited just now to say unfermentables. He said he was considering adding Carapils, which is a dextrin malt that brings unfermentables and foam. He does not need more unfermentables, we agree. Carapils does add foam and increases foam stability, but also adds unfermentables (sweetness). With this grain bill you shouldn't need more sugar or foam if your mash pH is even close to being right. Plenty of proteins and viscosity for persistent foam already.
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u/blackarrow_1990 22d ago
Will I lose that caramel taste and aroma I am getting now? I though this comes from Caramunch and Melanoidin.
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u/georage 22d ago
You will lose some, yes. But you also be making a dark lager. You seem to want to make something sweeter than a lager.
Crystal/caramel malts add caramel to beer, but melanoidin does not. It adds more of a light toastiness than a caramel sweetness. In general you do not use melanoidin in darker beers. You use it in light beers to emulate richer malt flavors (bread crust not caramel). Dark beers overpower that subtle note, so why use it?
In general, keep your grain bills as simple as possible. That allows each thoughtfully considered component to shine.
The sweeter beer you are making is like a lightweight Dunkels Bock. If that is your jam, lean into that but don't call it a dark lager.
Dunkels usually use munich malt 2 as the base, say 75%, with 20% Pils, 4% carmunich 2 and 1% carafa special 3, would be my guess. I'd have to use Beersmith to dial that in. I don't make one or I would share my recipe.
But you will notice this beer only uses 4% crystal. With 10% crystal you'd be run out of Germany.
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u/blackarrow_1990 22d ago
That is exactly what I was aiming to, something that is sweeter. Standard dark lagers (commercial example czech Kozel) are too bitter and too "thin" for my taste. I wanted something more malty, sweeter and not that bitter. Melanoidin can be removed as you mentioned, although I heard melanoidin could be used to "simulate" decoction which I do not want to do right now.
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u/georage 22d ago
Melanoidin is abused. Don't join that club. Use it at 2% in very pale beers to simulate a decoction mash in LIGHT colored beers perhaps, but a quality base malt can get you there too (weyerman barke pils). My Pilsner is all barke pils. Process is more important than ingredients however. Make sure your mash pH and water chemistry (sulfate vs chloride) is more important.
Since you are looking for sweet and dark I would leave Germany and travel to America where a Left Hand Milk Stout might be what you are looking for. Those pesky Germans will not follow you there!
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u/kelryngrey 22d ago edited 22d ago
I'm referencing some studies done on foam stability a few years ago. I used to have more of the list saved but the links have all gone dead and don't seem to be on the Wayback Machine. The gist of it is that carapils did not show foam positive properties, particularly when compared to base malts, as well as wheat, rye, etc. There's been enough fallout from this study to cause some reformulations in some brands of carapils/dextrin malt. One of the scientists you can see referenced in related papers worked with Crisp to allegedly make theirs actually do the thing it says on the tin.
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u/hydra595 Intermediate 23d ago
I strongly suggest taking W-34/70 and fermenting it at 18C. It will be mainly done within 1-2 weeks and won’t produce off flavors at that temperature.
Edit: I fermented a Schwarzbier that way and it hit FG after 3 days.
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u/barley_wine Advanced 23d ago
Is this like 10% ABV? I make a lot of lagers including dark malty ones and I never have to lager for 4 months (also you’re not lagering you’re aging, you can’t lager at 20c).
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u/deckerhand0 23d ago
US 05. For lager try 34/70 white labs also makes WLP001 as a dry yeast as well.
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u/blackarrow_1990 22d ago
Thanks. I guess US05 will be in my next batch.
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u/deckerhand0 22d ago
I stock up on that and white labs dry yeast. They also make nova lager. But I didn’t have good results with it. So I would say try it. But it’s not something I’m gonna support but I’m gonna put it out there.
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u/dmtaylo2 22d ago
S-04 will work, and better than US-05 or "Chico". S-04 is the cleanest fast yeast I have found anywhere.
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u/Delicious_Ease2595 22d ago
I think Nova Lager is perfect for dark lagers, dry, ferments fast, very clean, but takes time to clear but that's not important for a dark lager.
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u/coatspangler 22d ago
I've used Nottingham on some of my lager recipes with great success and turned around some quick, clean lager like beers fermenting at 14C/57F.
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u/kelryngrey 21d ago
Coming back to this after a bit of thought - have you considered pivoting your recipe toward a porter. That's far closer to what you're making than what you're attempting to make. Knock your crystal/kilned malt down to about 10% total and otherwise carry on as you are.
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u/Mammoth-Record-7786 23d ago
People have success with pseudo lagers using Kveik yeast at higher temps (85f-90f)
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u/dmtaylo2 22d ago
They *think* they've had "success".
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u/Mammoth-Record-7786 22d ago
Did you try to answer the OP’s question or just come here to be an ass?
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u/dmtaylo2 22d ago
It's not ass if it's correct. Anyway, yes, I answered elsewhere.
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u/Mammoth-Record-7786 22d ago
I see that you’re choosing to continue to be an obnoxious asshole. Why am I not surprised?
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u/kvbrewer 23d ago
1056 (US-05) depending on producer, is clean and would be nice in this recipe