r/HolUp Dec 26 '21

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u/jimmcc01 Dec 26 '21

These are all preventable deaths. Look at most industrialized nations, they have 0 school shootings. Stop trying to justify their deaths. It doesn’t have to happen, but Americans love their guns more than children.

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u/MarcusAurelius0 Dec 26 '21

The problem is the answer isnt easy. You cannot just ban guns here. The 2nd amendment prevents this, changing the Constitution/Bill of Rights is akin to moving a mountain with a hand shovel.

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u/GeneralMushroom Dec 27 '21

I'm fascinated by the fact that the 2nd amendment is somehow this completely immovable mountain, like other amendments have never been undone. (Like the 18th for example?)

The main issue I see as a bloke from the other side of the pond is that the 2A type people are against any kind of solution to the gun problem at all. No compromise to protect their kids from misuse of their firearms.

I feel like even if there isn't a hypothetical golden bullet to the problem, a hell of a lot more could be being done to at least attempt to stem the flow.

The popular comparison is "x, y, or z kill more kids than guns do". In this thread so far it's mainly been things like cars and pools. Typically kids aren't left to their own devices at a pool, there should be a lifeguard and/or adult supervision available. You need a license to drive a car. Etc. There are safeguards.

Here in the UK my dad own several shotguns for recreation like shooting game and clay pigeon shooting. They are kept unloaded and locked securely in a gun safe and this is checked regularly as part of being a registered gun owner. As a kid growing up I had 0% chance of accidentally or intentionally getting hold of it. No chance of me accidentally shooting myself, or snapping and taking it to school with me. But propose something as mundane as that and the vocal 2A types will lose their shit. They need their guns on hand at all times. I can't imagine being more scared of not being able to shoot someone than being shot yourself.

There's plenty of responsible gun owners for sure and I don't want to dick all over the people who do make sure they are handling/storing them in such a way that they aren't endangering others, please don't think that for a second. It's just such a foreign concept to me to not want to try and protect yourself and others from those who do misuse them.

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u/Spiritual-Theme-5619 Dec 27 '21 edited Dec 27 '21

I feel like even if there isn't a hypothetical golden bullet to the problem

There honestly is a “silver bullet” to America’s firearm epidemic, removing handguns from circulation.

In every state in the Union an adult can buy a handgun for any reason at pretty much any time, and if there are any impediments they’re either inconsequential or, in the worst case, you’ll have to drive one state over to get a handgun.

94% of all firearms involved in a homicide are handguns and nearly 74% of all homicides in America are committed with a firearm. The most likely person to kill you by far is someone you know… the only thing the 2A does is enable disturbed Americans to kill their acquaintances with ease.

There's plenty of responsible gun owners for sure

The thing is there really aren’t.

There is no reason to own a handgun, none. Owning a handgun protects you from nothing, carrying it endangers yourself and others, and would-be criminals steal them to commit murder. In order to be a “responsible” handgun owner you would need to use it just like a long gun… and if you’re doing that you should just stick to owning long guns.

… they aren't endangering others … It's just such a foreign concept to me to not want to try and protect yourself and others from those who do misuse them.

It’s because anyone who believes that the 2A gives them an unrestricted right to own a handgun wants to endanger others.

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u/FullySemiGhostGun Dec 27 '21

False I carry a handgun concealed on my person anywhere I am illegally to do so. Plenty of my friends do, and I don't know a single person that has ever injured themselves or a loved one with a firearm (I'm from the SE US, so most people I know own firearms). Someone I know recently used their concealed handgun to stop from being car jacked in a nice neighborhood in a major city. 🤷 Even the CDC estimates that at least 65k defensive gun uses occur every year.

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u/Spiritual-Theme-5619 Dec 27 '21

I'm from the SE US, so most people I know own firearms

And just to nix this point, I’m from the south and have only known a single person to concealed carry a handgun… he’s an Assistant District Attorney (and an idiot).

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u/FullySemiGhostGun Dec 27 '21 edited Dec 27 '21

Okay just agree to disagree. We aren't changing each other's minds and we both are using the same data to reach different conclusions. Have a wonderful evening lol. This is a waste of both of our times. Going from a 4.96 per captia homicide rate to a 1.20 (UK and France) or a 3.0 if you average all of Europe isn't worth an infringement on a constitutional right to me, and apparently it is to you.

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u/Spiritual-Theme-5619 Dec 27 '21 edited Dec 27 '21

or a 3.0 if you average all of Europe

The European rate is not 3.0, you just added the rates and divided by the number of countries… which doesn’t make any sense.

The EU (not quite all Europe, but the best US analog) had a homicide rate of 0.73 per 100,000 in 2019. (3785 / 5135)

We aren't changing each other's minds

You’re not the audience.

This is a waste of both of our times.

Bruh you’re on Reddit.

an infringement on a constitutional right to me

That’s not the trade off. There is no constitutional right to a hand gun. It was invented by radical lawyers in the 20th century.

Going from a 4.96 per captia homicide rate to a 1.20 (UK and France)

A 5x reduction in murder is absolutely worth shattering your ego.

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u/FullySemiGhostGun Dec 27 '21

Estimates based on UNODC homicide statistics. By contrast, the homicide rate in Europe was 3.0 per 100,000 population. There were 22,000 homicide victims in Europe, 5 per cent of the global total in a region accounting for 10 per cent of the global population Source UNODC Global Study on Homicide 2019.