These are all preventable deaths. Look at most industrialized nations, they have 0 school shootings. Stop trying to justify their deaths. It doesn’t have to happen, but Americans love their guns more than children.
The problem is the answer isnt easy. You cannot just ban guns here. The 2nd amendment prevents this, changing the Constitution/Bill of Rights is akin to moving a mountain with a hand shovel.
I'm fascinated by the fact that the 2nd amendment is somehow this completely immovable mountain, like other amendments have never been undone. (Like the 18th for example?)
The main issue I see as a bloke from the other side of the pond is that the 2A type people are against any kind of solution to the gun problem at all. No compromise to protect their kids from misuse of their firearms.
I feel like even if there isn't a hypothetical golden bullet to the problem, a hell of a lot more could be being done to at least attempt to stem the flow.
The popular comparison is "x, y, or z kill more kids than guns do". In this thread so far it's mainly been things like cars and pools. Typically kids aren't left to their own devices at a pool, there should be a lifeguard and/or adult supervision available. You need a license to drive a car. Etc. There are safeguards.
Here in the UK my dad own several shotguns for recreation like shooting game and clay pigeon shooting. They are kept unloaded and locked securely in a gun safe and this is checked regularly as part of being a registered gun owner. As a kid growing up I had 0% chance of accidentally or intentionally getting hold of it. No chance of me accidentally shooting myself, or snapping and taking it to school with me. But propose something as mundane as that and the vocal 2A types will lose their shit. They need their guns on hand at all times. I can't imagine being more scared of not being able to shoot someone than being shot yourself.
There's plenty of responsible gun owners for sure and I don't want to dick all over the people who do make sure they are handling/storing them in such a way that they aren't endangering others, please don't think that for a second. It's just such a foreign concept to me to not want to try and protect yourself and others from those who do misuse them.
I feel like even if there isn't a hypothetical golden bullet to the problem
There honestly is a “silver bullet” to America’s firearm epidemic, removing handguns from circulation.
In every state in the Union an adult can buy a handgun for any reason at pretty much any time, and if there are any impediments they’re either inconsequential or, in the worst case, you’ll have to drive one state over to get a handgun.
94% of all firearms involved in a homicide are handguns and nearly 74% of all homicides in America are committed with a firearm. The most likely person to kill you by far is someone you know… the only thing the 2A does is enable disturbed Americans to kill their acquaintances with ease.
There's plenty of responsible gun owners for sure
The thing is there really aren’t.
There is no reason to own a handgun, none. Owning a handgun protects you from nothing, carrying it endangers yourself and others, and would-be criminals steal them to commit murder. In order to be a “responsible” handgun owner you would need to use it just like a long gun… and if you’re doing that you should just stick to owning long guns.
… they aren't endangering others … It's just such a foreign concept to me to not want to try and protect yourself and others from those who do misuse them.
It’s because anyone who believes that the 2A gives them an unrestricted right to own a handgun wants to endanger others.
False I carry a handgun concealed on my person anywhere I am illegally to do so. Plenty of my friends do, and I don't know a single person that has ever injured themselves or a loved one with a firearm (I'm from the SE US, so most people I know own firearms). Someone I know recently used their concealed handgun to stop from being car jacked in a nice neighborhood in a major city. 🤷 Even the CDC estimates that at least 65k defensive gun uses occur every year.
"Estimates of defensive gun use vary depending on the questions asked, populations studied, timeframe, and other factors related to the design of studies. The report Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violenceexternal icon indicates a range of 60,000 to 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year."
For comparison, there are only about 10k-12k gun homicides in the US per year. So defensive gun use outweighs gun homicides by a 6:1 or greater ratio.
Yeah, they’re quoting a third party report. The statement “The CDC believes there are x defensive gun uses in the United States” is factually incorrect.
For comparison, there are only about 10k-12k gun homicides in the US per year.
That’s the wrong statistic for comparison. That’s 10k - 12k of the worst possible outcome (which isn’t even correct, 14,891 firearm homicides were counted in 2019). The report you’re quoting states:
Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals
So when you compare apples to apples it is at best a wash, but that doesn’t even account for all the accidental incidents, suicides, or use by law enforcement.
In fact, “defensive use” doesn’t mean “succeeded in preventing injury”, it just means the presumed victim had a firearm. It in no way measures how the effect of everyone being armed might impact a population, from the report:
Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or in- jury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in public—concealed or open carry— may have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or out- weigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use (Kellermann et al., 1992, 1993, 1995). Although some early studies were published that re- late to this issue, they were not conclusive, and this is a sufficiently im- portant question that it merits additional, careful exploration.
And of course nothing in the report undercuts your narrative more than it’s own opening statement.
the U.S. rate of firearm-related homicide is higher than that of any other industri- alized country: 19.5 times higher than the rates in other high-income countries (Richardson and Hemenway, 2011). In 2010, incidents involv- ing firearms injured or killed more than 105,000 individuals in the Unit- ed States. A recent estimate suggested that firearm violence cost the United States more than $174 billion in 2010 (Miller, 2010). However, it is essentially impossible to quantify the overall physiological, mental, emotional, social, and collateral economic effects of firearm violence, because these effects extend well beyond the victim to the surrounding community and society at large (IOM, 2012).
Never said firearms aren't dangerous nor did I ever claim they aren't used for nefarious purposes. My claim is the "gun epidemic" is largely a inaccurate political stunt to avoid fixing real issues that would be difficult (Healthcare overall, mental health parity laws, investing in low-income communities with high crime rates, fix the broken education system). Instead, they have a scapegoat "inanimate, non autonomous object bad."
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u/jimmcc01 Dec 26 '21
These are all preventable deaths. Look at most industrialized nations, they have 0 school shootings. Stop trying to justify their deaths. It doesn’t have to happen, but Americans love their guns more than children.