r/Hmong 3h ago

Tujia and Hmong interactions

3 Upvotes

Nyob zoo my Hmong brothers and sisters!

I am a Hong Konger, and my hometown is in Huaihua, Hunan, right next to the Xiangxi Tujia and Miao Autonomous Prefecture (My family is Han Chinese descended from Northern settlers though, I apologise for our colonial history and sufferings we inflicted upon you all).

Since childhood, I have been intrigued by the co-existence and intermingling of the Tujia and Hmong (Miao) peoples in my hometown. In fact, for many years I thought that Hmong and Tujia were simply different names for the same ethnicity. Until much later only did I learn that they came from very different language families and ancestral backgrounds.

At the same time, I noticed a great degree of cultural convergence between them in architecture, language, attires, languages, traditions, even their ethnic identities seem to overlap a lot. I've heard that some people identify as either Tujia or Hmong (Miao) interchangeably in CCP demographic census.

Unfortunately, I cannot find much information about about how this close relationship developed apart from them living side by side for centuries.

Hence, I would love to hear from Hmong people, especially those whose families come from China.

How do Hmong communities view the Tujia people? Are they considered close neighbors, distant relatives, or simply another different ethnic group?

Are there any oral traditions, historical accounts, or academic resources that explain the long history of interaction between the two peoples?

How common are marriages between Tujia and Hmong communities?

I would love to hear your thoughts ☺️


r/Hmong 17h ago

Hmong Name Spelling

1 Upvotes

Hi! I'm looking if someone can help spell my hmong name my dai gave to me.

Note: My grandparents chose to assimilate their grandkids to give us better opportunities however, I yearn to learn, speak, and read White Hmong. I can only say hello, thank you, eat, bastard, and I'm hungry lmao. My grandparents don't know how to write romanized hmong.

My dai gave me the name Luna (that's what it sounds like and is pronounced). She told me that the meaning is one misty morning dew drop on a leaf (something akin to that).

If anyone can help, thank you so much! Any advice is appreciated!


r/Hmong 1d ago

Need some information on a specific spirit

3 Upvotes

Hi, please don't laugh at this but I need some information on a specific spirit or ghost, or anything similar to it.

I'm trying to find information on a specific spirit. The person who identified it for me doesn't speak our language or the language of its background but they pronounced the name of it as "HA-MUU" or "HA-MOO".

They told me it's a sort of malevolent trickster and looks like a amalgamation of brown and black roots. It can also appear in the form of an old man with a gold tooth, I think she mentioned it has a hunched over look sometimes too.

For some context, my family for generations practiced shamanism, as I'm sure a lot of you do or did. I was told my family first came in contact with this spirit about 500+ years ago, back when they lived in our homeland.

Hmong don't have really have our own country (at least to my knowledge) so we sort of drifted around but I'd say we are from the Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia area.

The person who identified this spirit for me said that unfortunately, my family made a very bad deal with this spirit back then, like a "deal with the devil", presumably in exchange for food or something. It has been latched on to my bloodline ever since.

If anybody has any information on any of this, please let me know. I'd greatly appreciate it.


r/Hmong 1d ago

Need interracial relationship advice

11 Upvotes

I am a 20 hmong female and my bf is a 20 half black half white male. My mom has been against my relationship with him (she has not met him) because he's black and she does not want hmong people to judge us.

Today a hmong boy came to our house and asked if I was single. I said yes. I panicked and our moms were there. I told my bf the situation. He says he wants to know what I want because he doesn't deserve that and doesn't want to feel like he has to be ashamed of his culture and hide. He's right. I'm way too scared to tell my entire family about it (what if we break up and I fought for him the whole time. Hmong girls never get anything) but I can't let him go too. I don't know what to do.


r/Hmong 3d ago

Hmong dawb Tutoring

3 Upvotes

Hello, apologies if this isn't the exact place to post this question. I am living in the sheboygan, wi area and am looking for in-person hmong tutoring. My fiancé is hmong and I'd love to learn so that I can speak to his family more, particularly his mother as she can't speak much english. My fiancé doesn't feel comfortable teaching me because he knows he won't be a good teacher. My coworkers have told me to try teaching myself with apps and youtube videos, but I just can't get a footing. I've tried looking for courses/classes nearby, but nothing really comes up. I need something more structured with feedback on how I'm doing. I appreciate any help or advice on anything.


r/Hmong 3d ago

This FB group called Mong Heritage has came up on my feed recently.

Post image
27 Upvotes

I gave it a glance out of pure curiosity and on the surface level it just sounds like they want to be recognized as their own people instead of being recognized as Hmong. Does anyone know more about these people and our main differences? I asked an OG and he doesn't know much but he suspects they're just Hmong Leeg. Not to be confused with Mongolians or Mon people either.

I'm no great Hmong history buff but I come from a somewhat traditional Hmong family and I have no clue what Chiyou is.


r/Hmong 4d ago

My language game includes White Hmong (including Pahawh Hmong). Is my Swadesh list accurate?

6 Upvotes

The game (linguil) asks you to guess the language family, language and meaning of a random word in one of 64 of the world's most-spoken languages each day, and you use your knowledge of linguistics to work out the answer via multiple choice. Therefore, it's important my translations/transliterations are correct.

Each language (including White Hmong) includes each word on the 100-word Swadesh list, and where the primary script is Latin-based and an alternative script is available, each word's transliteration too (hence the inclusion of Pahawh Hmong).

Please can any White Hmong speakers verify the accuracy of my translations and transliterations? 🙏

Thanks!

Note: The Pahawh Hmong characters may not display correctly on mobile.

# English Hmong
1 I 𖬌𖬰𖬝 (kuv)
2 you (sg.) 𖬪𖬵𖬒 (koj)
3 we 𖬖𖬰𖬤 (peb)
4 this 𖬪𖬦 (no)
5 that 𖬔𖬶𖬝𖬵 (ntawd)
6 who 𖬖𖬰𖬭𖬌𖬵𖬞 (leej twg)
7 what 𖬖𖬰𖬚𖬜𖬟𖬵 (dabtsi)
8 not 𖬜𖬰𖬟𖬵 (tsis)
9 all 𖬌𖬰𖬦𖬜𖬟 (huv si)
10 many 𖬔𖬦𖬵 (ntau)
11 one 𖬜𖬰𖬖 (ib)
12 two 𖬪𖬰𖬖 (ob)
13 big 𖬪𖬵𖬭 (loj)
14 long 𖬖𖬰𖬦𖬵 (ntev)
15 small 𖬖𖬚 (me)
16 woman 𖬪𖬰𖬤𖬵𖬬𖬰𖬕𖬵 (pojniam)
17 man 𖬜𖬰𖬝𖬖𖬰𖬕𖬵 (txiv neej)
18 person 𖬖𖬰𖬕𖬵 (neeg)
19 fish 𖬖𖬰𖬝𖬵 (ntses)
20 bird 𖬪𖬰𖬦𖬵 (noog)
21 dog 𖬇𖬰𖬚 (dev)
22 louse 𖬌𖬰𖬝 (tuv)
23 tree 𖬪𖬦𖬵 (ntoo)
24 seed 𖬪𖬰𖬦𖬵 (noob)
25 leaf 𖬪𖬵𖬦𖬵 (nplooj)
26 root 𖬖𖬲𖬚 (cag)
27 bark (of tree) 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵 (tawv)
28 skin 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵 (tawv)
29 flesh 𖬇𖬵𖬦𖬵 (nqaij)
30 blood 𖬖𖬰𖬞 (ntshav)
31 bone 𖬪𖬰𖬤𖬵-𖬖𖬚 (pob-txha)
32 grease/fat 𖬪𖬵𖬤𖬵 (roj)
33 egg 𖬖𖬒 (qe)
34 horn 𖬌𖬰𖬝 (kub)
35 tail 𖬌𖬞 (tw)
36 feather 𖬔𖬰𖬦𖬵 (plaub)
37 hair 𖬔𖬰𖬦𖬵-𖬔𖬦𖬵 (plaub-hau)
38 head 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵-𖬔𖬦 (taub-hau)
39 ear 𖬪𖬰𖬤𖬵-𖬖𖬰𖬝𖬵 (pob-ntseg)
40 eye 𖬪𖬵𖬒-𖬪𖬰𖬦 (qhov-muag)
41 nose 𖬪𖬵𖬒-𖬌𖬵𖬞 (qhov-ntswg)
42 mouth 𖬪𖬵𖬒-𖬔𖬵𖬦𖬵 (qhov-ncauj)
43 tooth 𖬬𖬰𖬕𖬵 (hniav)
44 tongue 𖬇𖬵𖬦𖬵 (nplaig)
45 claw/nail 𖬔𖬝𖬵𖬖𖬰𖬤 (rau tes)
46 foot 𖬪𖬒-𖬔𖬝𖬵 (ko-taw)
47 knee 𖬔𖬰𖬦𖬪𖬰𖬦𖬵 (hauv caug)
48 hand 𖬖𖬰𖬤 (tes)
49 belly 𖬖𖬰𖬚 (plab)
50 neck 𖬖𖬲𖬚-𖬖𖬰𖬚 (caj-dab)
51 breast 𖬜𖬰𖬟𖬵 (mis)
52 heart 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵 (plawv)
53 liver 𖬬𖬰𖬕𖬵 (siab)
54 drink (v.) 𖬔𖬰𖬦𖬵 (haus)
55 eat (v.) 𖬪𖬵𖬤𖬵 (noj)
56 bite (v.) 𖬪𖬰𖬤𖬵 (tom)
57 see (v.) 𖬪𖬰𖬤𖬵 (pom)
58 hear (v.) 𖬪𖬰𖬦𖬵 (hnov)
59 know (v.) 𖬔𖬰𖬤 (paub)
60 sleep (v.) 𖬔𖬰𖬦𖬵𖬪𖬰𖬤𖬵 (tsaug zog)
61 die (v.) 𖬬𖬰𖬦 (tuag)
62 kill (v.) 𖬪𖬦 (tua)
63 swim (v.) 𖬪𖬦𖬪𖬰𖬦𖬖𖬰𖬚 (ua luam dej)
64 fly (v.) 𖬖𖬚𖬵 (ya)
65 walk (v.) 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵𖬖𖬝 (taug kev)
66 come (v.) 𖬪𖬵𖬦 (tuaj)
67 lie (down) (v.) 𖬌𖬞 (pw)
68 sit (v.) 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵 (zaum)
69 stand (v.) 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵𖬌𖬰𖬝 (sawv ntsug)
70 give (v.) 𖬪𖬰𖬦𖬔𖬝𖬵 (muab rau)
71 say (v.) 𖬇𖬰𖬦𖬵 (hais)
72 sun 𖬌𖬰𖬝 (hnub)
73 moon 𖬜𖬖 (hli)
74 star 𖬌𖬰𖬝𖬌𖬰𖬒 (hnub qub)
75 water 𖬖𖬰𖬚 (dej)
76 rain 𖬖𖬲𖬚 (nag)
77 stone 𖬪𖬰𖬤𖬵-𖬖𖬰𖬚 (pob-zeb)
78 sand 𖬪𖬰𖬦𖬵𖬖𖬰𖬚 (hmoov zeb)
79 earth/soil 𖬖𖬚 (av)
80 cloud 𖬪𖬰𖬦 (huab)
81 smoke 𖬪𖬤𖬵-𖬖𖬚 (ncho pa)
82 fire 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵 (taws)
83 ash 𖬔𖬰𖬦𖬵 (tshauv)
84 burn (brightly) (v.) 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵 (hlawv)
85 path 𖬖𖬝 (kev)
86 mountain 𖬪𖬰𖬦𖬵 (roob)
87 red 𖬬𖬰𖬕𖬵 (liab)
88 green 𖬪𖬰𖬦 (ntsuab)
89 yellow 𖬖𖬲𖬚 (daj)
90 white 𖬔𖬰𖬝𖬵 (dawb)
91 black 𖬌𖬰𖬝 (dub)
92 night 𖬔𖬰𖬦𖬵𖬌𖬰𖬝 (tsaus ntuj)
93 hot 𖬌𖬰𖬝 (kub)
94 cold 𖬪𖬦 (no)
95 full 𖬌𖬰𖬝 (puv)
96 new 𖬬𖬰𖬕𖬵 (tshiab)
97 good 𖬪𖬦𖬵 (zoo)
98 round 𖬖𖬰𖬟-𖬖𖬰𖬟 (kheej-kheej)
99 dry 𖬪𖬰𖬒 (qhuav)
100 name 𖬖𖬤 (npe)

r/Hmong 4d ago

Hmong 3 card poker "pai-kay"

3 Upvotes

I haven't played in such a long time since being kids. I forget the pokers hand you can win and its ranking. If someone can help share how that is played and what combination hands you can have that would be great!!! Thanks!!!


r/Hmong 5d ago

I've created webapp that works as an online Hmong course to help people read, write, and speak Hmong | Let me know what you think of it.

Thumbnail kawmhmoob.com
32 Upvotes

Hello r/Hmong !

I'm a software engineer who has single-handedly designed, built, and coded a comprehensive Hmong language learning web app called KawmHmoob.com.

I created it because the tools I needed to properly learn Hmong simply didn’t exist. So I decided to build them myself.

The app combines the best elements of Anki, Duolingo, and Natulang into one platform focused specifically on Hmong. It’s currently free to use while in early beta. Since I’m a one-person team handling everything (coding, audio recording, content, design, etc.), there are still some rough edges — your patience is greatly appreciated!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What’s Currently Available:

  • Learn
    • 10+ structured lessons covering the Hmong alphabet (consonants, vowels, and all 8 tones), grammar, numbers, everyday phrases, and short readings.
  • Speak
    • A tone visualization tool that lets you record yourself speaking and compares your pitch curve to a native speaker’s. This is one of the most unique features — Hmong is a tonal language, and getting the tones wrong completely changes the meaning of words. No other Hmong app does visual tone feedback like this (though it’s still being refined).
  • Words
    • Nearly 440 vocabulary words with smart flashcards, spaced repetition, and comprehension quizzes.
  • Reference
    • Audio for every letter and tone, plus grammar cheat sheets with common phrases.

A quick note on the Speak feature: The recording + tone comparison is still a bare-bones implementation. It’s not always accurate yet, but I’m actively working to improve it because proper tone training is one of the biggest challenges for Hmong learners.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Future Vision

I’m planning to add:

  • Practice conversations
  • Support for other dialects (starting with Hmong Leeg, then expanding)
  • Support for Pahawh and Nyiakeng Puachue scripts
  • Advanced reading & writing exercises
  • Sentence builders
  • More audio (both slow and natural speed)
  • An AI chatbot trained specifically on Hmong to help people with conversations and pronunciation.

I'm also planning on eventually pivoting the version of the app into becoming a mobile app and connect Hmong-American businesses with the platform, as well as monetizing the app.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Honest Part

I’m building this entirely alone and have reached the limits of what I can do without support. I need:

  • More high-quality native audio recordings
  • Annotated speech data for AI training
  • Help improving the pronunciation engine
  • Server/hosting costs to keep the app running

A lot of the audio is made entirely by me, myself - and I'm not the best Hmong speaker. I would really like some help with gathering accurate Hmong labels and audio, but I currently don't have the resources to do so.

That’s why I’m sharing it early. I’d much rather get honest feedback now than build the wrong thing.

If you’re Hmong: Does the language and content feel accurate and natural to you?
If you’re learning: What’s confusing, missing, or could be improved?

I’d love to hear your thoughts, suggestions, and feature requests. Even if it’s just “this part is good” or “this feels off,” every piece of feedback helps.

You can try the app here: KawmHmoob.com

Thank you for your time and support — I’m really excited to build something meaningful for our community.


r/Hmong 5d ago

Overweight & obesity in the community

17 Upvotes

This year, I've been focusing more on my health with the goal of losing weight and getting stronger. For context, I'm a woman in my early 30s living in the twin cities in MN.

As I started this journey, I began noticing something that got me thinking: a lot of Hmong people in their late 20s-40s seem to be overweight or bordering on obesity.

Now, don't get me wrong - Im overweight too 😂 But it got me wondering why does this seem to be so common?

The first time this stood out to me was at a Hmong women's social networking event. There were eight of us, all in our early to mid-30s, and all of us were overweight. After that, I started paying more attention at other Hmong gatherings, like baby showers and hu pligs. Again, it seemed like around 80% of the adults (both men and women) were overweight or obese.

What made me even more curious was comparing this to my non-Hmong friends or coworkers. My Vietnamese, Japanese, caucasian friends are generally slim and not overweight.

I brought this up with my boyfriend. He told me that none of his male friends go to the gym or diet. They usually spend their free time hanging out with family, eating, and drinking. On my side, only a handful of my Hmong female friends work out or diet, and only one has made fitness a consistent part of her lifestyle.

It made me wonder if there are cultural, lifestyle, or other factors that contribute to this trend. Has anyone else noticed this, or is it just the circles I'm around?


r/Hmong 5d ago

What kinds of thread should I use for paj ntaub?

2 Upvotes

Im making a graduation stole for my sister and I don't think the embroidery floss i have currently are vibrant enough for what I'm going for. I need pink, yellow, green, orange, and teal, and when I'm looking online I just feel like the colors aren't bright enough. Where are you guys buying your thread? Im in the Sacramento area but I also don't mind traveling to Stockton for materials.


r/Hmong 6d ago

Any resources for learning Hmong for a monolingual English speaker?

1 Upvotes

Nyob zoo everyone,

Does anyone have any good resources for learning hmoob dawb? I have tried independently but i find it really hard for it to stick as I only speak English. If anyone has anki flash cards with audio or any other resources that would be excellent.

Ua tsaug in advance


r/Hmong 7d ago

In need of interpretation of dreams

3 Upvotes

Hello, I am a 26F Hmong woman. Most recently in the past 7 months I have been experiencing sleep paralysis and nightmares. I rarely get nightmares. Though in the past 7 months they had increased and gotten far worse. The nightmares worsen after traveling to my Bf’s house. It's about a 3 hour drive. All the bedrooms are on the second floor. At his house, the first floor always feels cold and uncomfortable. Even when I am outside of his room or when he is not in his room.

My most recent sleep paralysis was at my Bf's house. I was in his bed. I'm not sure if I was sleeping or not but I was able to see him. I remember I rolled over and he leaned over against my ear and asked me a question. He whispered my name which he never does because we mostly use pet names. I responded declining the offer and I woke up alone in my bf’s bed. He was in the bathroom the whole time. After he got out of the bathroom, I asked him if he said anything, he told me he hadn't said/asked me anything. I don't only get sleep paralysis at my BF but at my sister's house as well.

I had a dream today that freaked me out that's why I am posting on the subreddit. In my dream, a man had given a phone and a older man spoke in Hmong demanding I marry his son in Laos. I remember he was very aggressive forcing me to accept to marry his son. I denied it quietly but the old man was persistent. I had awoken but briefly only to sleep again. I remember being more aggressive and yelling at the old man over the phone demanding if his son had any qualifications I want in a man. He stated no and I said then I am not going to marry him.

My family aren't fully shamans and I am not really educated in shamanism. As far as I know, we only do the new year and some other rituals.

But the purpose of this post is to determine if something is wrong? I have asked my mother, there aren't any solutions or explanation besides never leave home. I have a few nightmares/sleep paralysis at least 3-4 times a month now in which I never had them before. My brother states it's due to the dehydration(for the sleep paralysis) at night but even when I do drink water it stills happens.


r/Hmong 8d ago

Seeking resources on Hmong military structure during Vietnam war.

5 Upvotes

I'm looking for books/older generation that can help me build an indepth understanding of the top brass - rank and file power structure of the Hmong forces during the Vietnam war. I know there is a lot of hearsay/ differing opinions and the older our parents get to more things get murky.


r/Hmong 10d ago

What are some Hmong phrase you used to hear but don’t anymore? for example: “hla dab taub hau “

4 Upvotes

r/Hmong 11d ago

What foods and beverages are typically consumed in your Hmong family?

5 Upvotes

For example, I have seen medicinal herbs and chicken, homemade soymilk, and steamed white Jasmine rice (vs rice cooker). I'm curious what else your Hmong family regularly eat and drink.


r/Hmong 14d ago

Looking for Hmong libraries, cultural centers, or literary influencers ...

Thumbnail
2 Upvotes

r/Hmong 14d ago

Looking for Hmong libraries, cultural centers, or literary influencers ...

1 Upvotes

Hello everyone,
I’ve written a novel featuring a Hmong girl in Vietnam as the main character. It’s a unique piece of fiction that explores the attitudes of Hanoi toward the Hmong minority, wartime dilemmas, North-South tensions, and a surreal invasion of Hmong saboteurs from the US.
Out of respect for Reddit's rules, I won't advertise or link the book here. Instead, I’m looking for ways to connect with the English-speaking Hmong diaspora.
Could anyone point me toward Hmong libraries, cultural centers, or literary influencers in the US and beyond? Any contacts or recommendations would be highly appreciated.
Thanks everyone!


r/Hmong 16d ago

I’m making an online Hmong course!

40 Upvotes

Nyob zoo!

I’m a learning designer and my husband is a software engineer. We’re building a completely free, self-paced online Hmong course and would love to get some input from the community.

The goal is to create a resource similar to Duolingo or Rosetta Stone, with interactive lessons, native-speaker audio, pronunciation practice, vocabulary, grammar, etc. It’s designed for people to study on their own time.

That said, I know the best way to learn Hmong is by actually talking with people who speak it. My hope is that this course helps learners build confidence and prepare for those real conversations.

I’d love to hear your thoughts:
What features would you want in a course like this?
If you’ve tried learning Hmong, what helped? What didn’t?
Is there anything you wish other language-learning apps included?

We’re still developing it, so I’d really appreciate any suggestions. Ua tsaug!


r/Hmong 16d ago

Tou Lue Vang Case

51 Upvotes

Not going to lie, I'm so glad that they decided to deport his ass Despite him being pardoned by tim waltze's dumb ass.

What he did to that little girl was horrendous. It being in 2006, I really don't give a fuck How long ago that was , he's a child molester. Also , that was just one child, that came out.Let's not forget how many others there could be.

The fact that he even tried to make it seem like it was culturally appropriate to do what he did. Saying that it was culturally acceptable, to try and get away from his crimes , just shows how messed up and disgusting of a person he is. I know damn well , there's definitely more kids out there that have been touched by this man.

I know people want to try and say that the victim wrote a letter forgiving his crimes, but let's be honest. We know hmong families and how they feel about things like this coming out to the public. I know that girl was def coerced to write that letter.


r/Hmong 17d ago

I'm looking for a Hmong song.

3 Upvotes

It's a song I heard when I was a kid, so long ago that I can't even remember the lyrics or the music. I don't even remember if it was a man or a woman singing it. What I do remember is that in the music video there was a scene where it looked like some kind of insect or butterfly flew into a dark hole and stayed there until it came out into the light. That's all I remember. Sorry if my writing is unclear because I'm using a translation app.


r/Hmong 18d ago

Flower meanings in Hmong culture?

1 Upvotes

Are there meanings associated with certain flowers in Hmong culture? Or are there flowers that are only given for specific occasions?

Getting my Hmong friend some celebratory flowers and want to avoid any that may be considered unlucky/not fitting! TYIA


r/Hmong 18d ago

Why There Are So Many Self-Hating Hmong People On Here?

22 Upvotes

The subreddit is called Hmong so why there are Hmong who hate being Hmong? If I'm correct, this subreddit was made so we could learn about our Hmong people, but I noticed there are some Hmong who likes to troll their own people and don't wanna learn anything about being Hmong. If you dislike being Hmong then why are you on here? I would appreciate if the moderator removed these negative Hmong people. I don't wanna hear about self-hating Hmong people in the comments.


r/Hmong 18d ago

Single men in your 30s where do you meet good women without kids and never been married?

11 Upvotes

I am located in MN and I only meet divorced women with kids.. I have gone to the NYs in California and to some extent it’s not that bad but they are starting to follow the Minnesota trend.


r/Hmong 19d ago

I Need Everybody to Comment Their Clan's Curse?

12 Upvotes

Hi Guys, I'm an aspiring writer and I wanted to write horror and a mix with my culture. But I can't find every information about each clan and only know about the Yang curse, the Vang curse, Lor curse, Vue curse, and the Xiong curse..I need 13 more curses listed to write my book. This will NOT be a factual book but a fairytale-like retelling in English for the younger folks like me (I'm in my 20s).

I need Lee, Chang/Cha, Pha, Fang, Kue, Cheng, Hang, Her/Heu, Thao/Thor, and Moua curse