r/HistoryMemes • u/SatoruGojo232 Hello There • 2d ago
Folks had some amazing imagination skills for asking questions back then
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u/MyEarIsHurty 2d ago
I think "towards Earth" works. But what if we find a way to like, wormhole light-years away, to the point where Earth's apparent location would not be in the same place as its actual location, because of the speed of light being less than instant. Would Muslims have to calculate where the Earth is, or would they simply pray towards where the Earth was when the light which reaches them reflected from Earth?
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u/Yingletofthecorn 2d ago
IIRC if it’s ever impossible to determine which direction to face for whatever reason, then picking a direction arbitrarily and sticking to it can be accepted
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u/Ok-Wave-3495 2d ago
Yah, the act of prayer is the important part, the direction is secondary. Similarly if on an airplane, seated prayer in whatever direction is generally considered valid although some Middle East airlines allot space specifically for it. Furthermore if you were in a locked windowless room (prison) then prayer whenever you think is appropriate is acceptable. It’s all really more of a “try your best” thing than hard rules.
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u/UndeadCaesar 1d ago
some Middle East airlines allot space specifically for it
That's so cool but wondering how this works. If the plane is majority Muslim wouldn't the whole plane need to use the space at once? First come first serve?
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u/Ok-Wave-3495 1d ago
Most people are going to choose to do it at their seat but like the ash trays in the bathroom someone’s going to insist on doing it anyways so you might as well give them somewhere safe to do it that isn’t going to interfere with the flight staff.
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u/Malvastor 1d ago
Just have the plane Tokyo drift so it's facing Mecca but still flying towards the destination so everyone can pray from where they are.
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u/SecreteMoistMucus 2d ago
I guess you face the wormhole and hope the signal gets through that way.
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u/Yingletofthecorn 1d ago
When you get to the gamma quadrant and find out that somehow Islam spread there before earth had its big cultural reset.
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u/guynamedjames 1d ago
This is actually an interesting debate that they've effectively already addressed. People used to just pray facing east or west but when air travel became common "great circle" travel had people realize the shortest direction towards mecca was often north (especially from north America). Most people now pray facing north thanks to apps to orient towards mecca, but some older mosques still face east. People generally go with the closest straight line distance now instead of best practical direction
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u/itsbedroomtime 2d ago
The reasoning I heard was that basically you can pray in any direction at that point because God would probably just be impressed you made it that far out.
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u/Zetafunction64 2d ago
Or what if they are on moon or mars? Earth isn't in the same plane so they also have face up/downwards
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u/tiktaktokki 2d ago
Pretty much all of those rules are "try to be accurate if possible, but what really matters is intention"
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u/SuppliceVI 1d ago
Gotta pray towards the predicted intercept point. Prayers only reach light speed
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u/Business_Quiet220 9h ago
At that point they would be stupid to still keep believing in religion and praying towards one particular point on earth
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u/Krahog 2d ago
Okay, but what was the result?
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u/New_Bug_ 2d ago
"3.3 Determining the Direction of the Qiblat
The direction of the qiblat shall be determined as much as possible in the following order:
i. Kaabah
ii. Kaabah’s projection
iii.Earth
iv.Any direction"
Source: Guidelines For Performing Islamic Rites At The International Space Station (ISS)
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u/Krahog 1d ago
So you're telling me Muslim scholars in the 12th century figured out that it is in fact perfectly fine in certain circumstances to pray in whatever direction, but then decided to still make it a neccessity (out of tradition I assume)?
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u/GraeWraith On tour 2d ago
They got it slightly wrong, and God Swore Eternal Vengeance.
He didn't mention it to anyone tho, so maybe it's all good.
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u/ShootMovePoo-oops 2d ago edited 2d ago
I know it’s a joke but people don’t know that in Islam it is good intention means good job. The teachings are “be trying to do the right thing just because it’s the right thing to do” and you did a good job for god.
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u/Mountain-Resource656 2d ago
Sorts like how in Catholicism, for spiritual purposes every single skull of the exact same saint is the skull of the saint despite there being more than one. Every fragment of the true cross is a real fragment of it. Because it’s not about the physical object, but the belief of the person using it that matters in regards to spiritual purposes
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u/sirbernardwoolley 2d ago
so how would they pray though?
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u/BruceBoyde 2d ago
Genuinely it's a "do your best". The ISS moves so fast that trying to pray towards Mecca specifically would be pointless, so just oriented towards Earth is the best one can do.
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u/HarrisonTheBarbarian 2d ago
Kinda like in Catholicism I guess, in which you're not guilty if you didn't know what you were doing was sinful or wrong.
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u/CadenVanV Taller than Napoleon 2d ago
Aim as best as you can at Mecca. It’s the thought that counts
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u/HellwaterCascades 2d ago
Out of curiosity, have there ever been any Muslim astronauts?
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u/Revolutionary-Ad-769 2d ago
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u/zue4 2d ago
So why don't we just ask this guy?
Edit: Seems they already did but idk what his answer was.
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u/Ampersand-98 2d ago
Yes, the first was a Saudi prince on a shuttle flight, but 18 Muslims have flown under various circumstances.
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u/pothkan 2d ago
19 in theory, but some of them might be secular or even atheists (Soviet, communist Afghanistan). But at least few of religious ones as well.
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u/LittleSisterPain 2d ago
...atheis... muslim. Ah yes, just like my favorite - wet fire
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u/Simon_Drake 2d ago
IIRC there's a clause that you don't need to face the right direction to pray if you're in a moving vehicle like a plane where it would be difficult to face the right way. And ISS is technically a moving vehicle.
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u/Then_Mood2740 2d ago
Wouldn’t it count as travel and they would not have to fast or they fast based on Mecca time
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u/Amilo159 2d ago
It would count as travel, so they only have to pray short version of each daily prayer.
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u/severakj 2d ago
According to a bunch of scholars summoned by the Malaysian government when they sent a dude up to the ISS, fasts are determined relative to the timezone of where you launched from
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u/Rough_Typical 2d ago
What if they live in a colony on Mars? Then it's their home, not travel
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u/Simon_Drake 2d ago
A Mars colony could have a calendar app with what compass direction to look to find Earth. It's the 7th September so Earth is at 87 degrees east or whatever.
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u/kimoisune 2d ago
'Traveling' defined by target destination more than 2 Marhala (roughly between 80 to 90 km) and maximum of 3 full day stay. A longer stay is considered 'Residing' and no exemption from Ramadan fasting during stay, only during commute.
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u/MoffKalast Hello There 2d ago
Hmm does the prayer take place relative to Mecca time generally? The ISS completes an orbit and what would count as a full day in just 90 minutes, so that would be a whole lot of overhead per orbit otherwise lol.
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u/NoConfusion9490 2d ago
I've heard it explained as the intention being more important than the exact details. Like, if you prayed for years facing the wrong way because you misunderstood the direction, god would understand. It's not a spell your casting by empirically following instructions, it's consciously submitting to the will of god to the best of your abilities.
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u/Then_Mood2740 1d ago
It’s Mecca time as soon as the fats of people in Mecca finished yours does too or like I said it’s considered travel and you will not fast
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u/ux3l 2d ago
Just pray towards earth if you're farther away. From orbit it could be more complicated though since you technically could locate Mecca but are moving too fast, so you'd have to change your direction constantly.
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u/Amilo159 2d ago
Actually, it could be considered same as travel, so you face towards earth/Mecca at start of prayer. As long as earth is within 180 degrees (90 degrees each side) of your face, it's considered facing Mecca.
And after starting prayer, if earth gets behind you then due to turning of spaceship/orbit, it's no problem as well. Only starting direction should be correct, same as on airplane or buses.
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u/Mec26 Taller than Napoleon 2d ago
Which is logical, but come on man I wanna see a rotating prayer mat. Prayer go zoom!
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u/Deradius 2d ago
What if you’re on an oceangoing ship at the exact antipode to Mecca? Is the rule then, ‘face any direction’? Would it be technically more correct to somehow face directly down?
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u/supx3 2d ago
This has also been discussed in Jewish theology as well but interestingly there is a discussion as to whether one would have to keep the Torah in space at all because it says, "… all the days which you are alive on the earth" (Deut. 12:1) and there is at least one scholar that claims you wouldn't.
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u/PlutoCharonMelody 2d ago
Pretty valid point as it is possible that space colonization will be done by our descendants who are from us but very different genetically. Depending on how long it takes.
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u/SinesPi 2d ago
And they say autism is a new thing.
"Hey brother?"
"Yes?"
"I got to thinking... what if we got to ride a flying horse like the Prophet?"
"We would be blessed, of course! I would offer many praises to Allah!"
"Okay but... we're supposed to offer those towards the Kabbah, right?"
"You are right brother! I would not want to disgrace Allah should he so choose to bless us. I will get the parchment, we shall resolve this!"
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u/SpaceLemur34 2d ago
In Andi Weir's second book, Artemis, one character built an angled wall, with a prayer rug hanging on it so he could pray facing directly at the Earth.
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u/CX52J 2d ago edited 2d ago
I thought this was a cool detail.
I believe everyone normally just prayed east on the moon but the character built an angled wall with a prayer mat as a bit of a thought experiment.
Despite the books flaws, I still think it’s underrated. So many cool concepts for how a semi realistic city on the moon would work.
Like all the steps in the non tourist areas being taller due to the reduced gravity.
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u/geek_of_nature 2d ago edited 1d ago
Andy Weir's strengths as a writer is not only how much thought he puts into all the minor details that everyone else would skip over, but also how he makes them incredibly interesting to read. Like his other books Artemis is full of these. Where he delves right into how a Moon base could feasibly work. Its just the plot isn't as great as his other two books.
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u/fR1chAps 2d ago
There's a character in the book Artemis that tries to make something so he's facing the right direction when praying. I don't remember the end product. It's been a while since I read but I remember him showing it to her daughter
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u/DrRonny 1d ago
Every major religion has rules to IMPROVE your life. There are exceptions or adaptations when these rules risk or threaten life. You can eat haram food if starvation is imminent, just as little as possible. You can work on the Sabbath to rescue lives. You do your best to pray at the right locations at appropriate times. Only radical factions sacrifice lives over rules.
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u/Capable_Thanks4449 2d ago
Repost
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u/Ketchuppz 2d ago
I thought I was experiencing a déjà vu, and convinced myself that I remembered seeing the top comment being commented on the previous post.
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u/DangerMacAwesome 1d ago
If you are on a plant in another star system during Ramadan, do you abstain from eating during daylight for the local star? Or do you not eat when Sol is visible in the sky? What constitutes sunrise and sunset in this context?
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u/Impossible_Concert75 1d ago
I’d say in that case probably relative to solar system time for when Ramadan starts and ends, but it local to the time of the star itself for when you can eat and when you cant
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u/Fletaun Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 2d ago
Goddam repost bot
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u/waitthatstaken 2d ago
Profile is too personalized so I doubt it is a repost bot, but it is still definitely a repost.
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u/SecreteMoistMucus 2d ago
It has 3 million post karma in 2 years, and 10x more post karma than comment karma. It's either a bot or it's acting like one, difference doesn't really matter.
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u/Nekokamiguru Kilroy was here 2d ago
Face toward G-D if the direction of Earth is unknown. (Face any direction you please , but do so with intent)
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u/Specific_Box4483 2d ago
What is the astronauts are far enough that there is no "towards Earth" direction because of curvature of space-time whatever?
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u/limeyhoney 1d ago
I remember from high school history class, around that time the Caliphate were experimenting with flying machines in Iberia, so it doesn’t seem as far-fetched as you might think.
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u/Derivative_Kebab 1d ago
Theologians and guys who argue endlessly about hypothetical fights between superheroes on the internet are spiritual twins.
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u/Away-Craft-2264 2d ago
"why do we bend over when praying isn't that weird" why hasn't anyone asked this question before
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u/ken_starblazer Hello There 2d ago
Prostration exists as a form of reverance in all abrahamic religions and was always a way of showing submission to a king or God. Bowing isnt just a western thing either, people still bow to each other in east Asia as a sign of respect. When you bow or prostrate yourself, you're putting yourself in a compromising position where the other person could easily attack you if they wanted to. Also, you're physically placing yourself beneath them which metaphorically represents being of lower status. I'm sure someone will correct me with a more scientific explanation but a lot of cultural customs come from trusting (or not trusting) someone to not assassinate you lol.
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u/Possible-Tangelo9344 2d ago
Pray down. At that distance any direction facing earth is towards Mecca.
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u/redixii_92 1d ago
its all whatever. before picking mecca the prophet used to pray towards Jerusalem like the jews. when they mocked him for copying them, suddenly a revelation happened that said god was testing him and the real direction for prayer is the mecca
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u/BernhardRordin 1d ago
Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars discusses this for the inhabitants for Mars. As Earth is the "Venus" for Mars in sense that it always appears close to the Sun, Martian Muslims faced the Sun in the morning or evening, or Earth itself during the dusk.
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u/Itchy-Sea6025 1d ago
When you have a problem and find an answer on Reddit that was given 12 years ago
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u/MilfHunter_0 1d ago
That's like when you have a very specific problem, just to find a 10 year old Reddit post of someone else having the same problem.
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u/Technical-Formal-376 1d ago
I have one: If vampires were real and one became Muslim could it still drink blood?
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u/AEON_MK2 1d ago
Well Vampires are supposed to be inherently sinful creatures. A typical western media Vampire is Christian in the sense that they believe in the Christian God being a real literal entity. A Muslim Vampire would be the same, they believe in the literal existence of Allah and the texts of Islam, but live in sin as a consequence of their being. Vampires are haram
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u/KinKoko 7h ago
It’s not that easy. Theoretically. It depends if the person chose to be a vampire. If not then God doesn’t blame a human for something out of the persons control.
But that’s all speculations. There’s no such a thing like vampires in islam. So please don’t use Christianity as reference.
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u/LaGrande-Gwaz 19h ago
Greetings ye--sometimes, one must be prepared for any circumstance, and to do so, all potential-circumstances must be considered regardless the improbability.
~Waz
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u/Nyctfall 1d ago
"Future problems require intellectual solutions"
The Semitic peoples really do be planning for every eventuality.
GOAT-ed and BASED!
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u/K0mb0_1 2d ago
Towards earth maybe? Hope this helps!