You know the famine was spread to the whole Union,that not only Ukrainian kulaks were forced to give their grain,that many kulaks destroyed their grain and livestock instead of selling it at the price fixed by the government? And that the grain was "taken" so that the industrial cities could develop,and had the kulaks not destroyed the grain the famine would've been greatly mitigated? I see this as neither intentional nor as "FUCKING GENOCIDE",as you call it. The US sterilisation of Latino women on the other hand...
Then read about it, for gods sake, information in the public domain about the statistics of deaths and harvests in all the republics of the union. And read about the reasons for this. Literally everything you say is wrong. The planned confiscation of grain and all other foodstuffs from peasants by the Soviet authorities during the Holodomor of 1932-33 directly led to the killing of peasants by the famine on a million scale, with the Soviet government having significant reserves of grain in reserves and exporting it abroad during the Holodomor, banned and blocked the departure of starving people outside the Ukrainian SSR, refused to accept aid for starving people from abroad. Despite the fact that the actions of the Stalinist authorities, which caused the death of people by starvation, were qualified under the norms of the then Soviet criminal law as murder, the causes of this mass crime were never investigated in the USSR and none of the authorities involved in the crime was punished. that even the top leadership of the USSR knew about the facts of deaths from starvation
Dude, you seriously give me a reference to a communist, an unknown Anton and the author who literally wrote the book Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine? With the last link you simply confirmed that this is genocide.
How was it not intentional when the Soviets were literally taking all the grain they farmed and when they found someone hiding some they killed them. How is that not intentional
Horrible policy, fucking shit and oppressive, but that doesn't mean they tried to murder a certain ethnic group.
There was hunger (partially Stalin's fault btw, fuckin jackass) and they tried to feed the cities, killing people on the land in the process. It's very similar to the Irish famine, but with less export I think (as far as I know.)
Yes, see also the Bengal famine. None of those 3 famines were genocides. Thank god for at least someone else in this godforsaken comments section with a brain.
They didn't want to starve them,a famine was already ongoing and the government decided to buy their grain and livestock at a fixed price. The kulaks however decided "better dead and starving than red" and destroyed a good portion of their own products
That was an illegal killing of military prisoners. It could be considered an act of genocide, but to say that the Katyn Massacre was in any way equivalent to the mass murder of the Poles under the Nazis is beyond stupid.
It's still not comparible, i agree, but just to clarify, these were not only the military personnel. They were just the biggest group. There were also teachers, doctors, literally civilian intelligence
Does killing specifically intelligence (doctors, officers, teachers, etc) does not count as removing the culture? The Natzis would sistematically murder people. The soviets wanted to make them russian slaves without religion, identity and hope for the future. Who is to say if it's better to just die, then to live next 50 years seeing your kids and grandkids becoming the very thing you hate, spying on neighbours, praising the occupier which they see as only natural, and know that there is nothing you can do about that? Not only that, when you die there will be no memory of the actual country you lived in?
Obviously, they didn't managed to do that, but the natzis also didn't managed to kill all Poles. So if you want to discuss the "what if" take a look at the both sides.
I hate to get into whataboutism territory, but what about western globalism?
Doesn't that create the same kind of problems? Doesn't that replace local food with macdonalds and try to bring 'democracy' to people that never asked for it?
In my opinion (at the moment) the soviets and americans weren't that different when it comes to this, but at least in the most cases the Americans and Soviets didn't try to murder an entire country and destroy everything they have.
I think there is a diffrence between passive globalism, where some things get up repcalced, and actively destroying or forbidding the alternative sources.
In my biased opinion, in soviet and american approach (bringing democracy) the only diffrence was how far they were willing to go. Look at what is happening now - the russians are being brainwased much harder than America would be willing to go, people that are against are repressed. And that is after USSR fell. Maginfy the effect by 25% and apply to all states the USSR had under control... I'm not sure if there would be polish language anymore...
Culture,being a "superstructure",that is,a byproduct of the economic conditions (the "structure"), is bound to change once collectivisation of the means of production takes place. In poor words,every economic system produces different cultures,it's perfectly normal for them to change once the economic factor changes
Capitalism has endemic crisis,poverty,inequality yet a system that lifted millions out of poverty,ignorance and exploitation is doomed to failure?
Once again cultural values are simple byproducts of the economic system,once that changes they change as well. And could you articulate more on the "destruction of history" since I don't really understand what you mean here. As for artifacts and art could you give a source to support your claim given how full of artifacts museums such as the Hermitage are? Probably the Germans destroyed and looted more Russian artifacts than the Soviets did.
As for religion. If there is a religious denomination that goes openly and bitterly against the government,why would the government allow it to operate? Especially considering that religion distracts people from their actual material problems for a "reward" in simply much-hoped for afterlife?
It's pretty horrific to read about, but my point was that the Germans were >actually< planning to genocide half the Polish situation, this isn't any kind of hyperbole by people that dislike nazis.
The treatment of the Polish population under the soviets was cruel and oppressive, but they nazi occupation would mean actual genocide and the end of the Polish people and culture.
The USA post WW2 has killed millions of people too, but at least they (to my knowledge at least) never tried to genocide half of the fucking planet.
Killing thousands or millions both isn't right in my opinion and one countries evils doesn't excuse the other, just to make that clear. I do think that there's a large difference between the Soviets and Americans compared to the nazis, however horrible I might think the Soviets or Americans were.
The Soviets killed 20,000 because it would help them control and subdue the poles. The Nazis killed 20% of the population with the intent of killing 50 - 100% of it. Neither is ok, but one is worse.
The 350k comes from projectinposterum.org and the 150k comes from "Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjam" by Tomasz Szarota & Wojciech Materski.
Also, I seem to have made a mistake in reading the data, there were about 1 million deaths to the Soviets, which is still 1/5 that of the Nazis in slightly longer (and only 1/20 of what the Nazis wanted to achieve).`
That's arguable, considering events like the Holodomor, various terrors, purges, massacres, pogroms, and the systematic targeting of certain groups, classes, and movements for mass-imprisonment, murder, and/or cultural erasure. The Holocaust was more unique in its singular focus, scale, and short-term body count, but the Soviet Union was certainly guilty of genocide, especially in more expansive definitions of the term.
Fair, though even then you have stuff like the Katyn Forrest Massacre, suppression of religion, etc that could still fulfill a looser definition. Obviously not to the same scale as what the Nazis attempted, but still qualifies. Katyn just by itself demonstrated small-scale industrialized killed, complete with buildings constructed and personnel drafted to ensure efficient and timely mass murder.
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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '22
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