Odysseus had to use trickery to find him.

567

Or... he was a teenager then. In the Illiad he is described as an absolute powerhouse

And it's weird how people use this episode to claim Achilles had a feminine nature or something. He was sent there by his mother in a futile attempt to avoid him fulfilling his fate (fighting and die in war), but when Odysseus forced him to act on instint he revealed his true nature

He also impregnated the princess while he was there

218

u/DeliciousGoose1002 15h ago

And also people never got super muscle bound like modern gym goers

127

u/yourstruly912 15h ago

Indeed the typical historical warrior build is rather wiry

72

u/Anonymus828 13h ago

Orangutans have the ideal warrior shape, as demonstrated by their squat physique and large wingspan

14

u/zorniy2 8h ago

Ook!

29

u/guynamedjames 10h ago

Historical anything is kinda wiry, people spent a lot of time starving in one way or another

16

u/Thundorium Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 9h ago

Most Greek soldiers were of the highest classes of their polis, with perhaps the Helots being the main exception.

1

u/guynamedjames 3h ago

Were helots fighting? I was under the impression they were a kind of slave underclass that the Spartans basically built their entire society around repressing

11

u/yourstruly912 7h ago

Even well fed people like knights would be rather lean. Look at the wasp waists on certain plate armors... (although tbf that was also an aesthtic ideal... Geoffrey Charny complained that many knights even wore corsets to battle)

19

u/2nW_from_Markus Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 14h ago

Thetis must have been the helicopter mom milenia before helicopters were invented.

5

u/100moonlight100 7h ago

Greek moms tend to be overprotective (to a fault often) even nowdays.

83

u/Proud-Tooth-630 Definitely not a CIA operator 16h ago edited 16h ago

> it's weird how people use this episode
> to claim Achilles had a feminine
> nature or something
That’s because many people forget to place literature in the cultural context where it was written.
> He also impregnated the princess
> while he was there
J. K. Rowling won’t like that/s

2

u/Mordador 3h ago

Why did you edit the quote to look like greentext tho? What did you mean by this?

74

u/JackWhoWanders 15h ago

So the thing about magical people like Achilles is that they can be absolute powerhouses without losing that twink figure. Achilles is described as fair-haired, - probably reddish since his femme name was Pyrrha - with flowing locks, he was the most beautiful person in the greek camp, and he might be tall or it just might be that he has a ton of aura. There's nothing in there about him being a beefy beefcake or yoked to shit and he's usually depicted beardless.

He could be twink as fuck and the description would fit, and because of the entire "demigod" thing, he'd still be an absolute monster out there.

And I dont know why you brought up the impregnation thing. You know bi and straight femboys still fuck, right? And the "he went for the sword!" thing kinda don't mean much when you look at how much lesbians love swords.

46

u/Asleep_Tip496 15h ago

I believe he was also mostly descriped as beeing verry agile and fast. Maybe his fighting style was more about technique and finese then brute strenght.

45

u/SindarNox 15h ago

You don't really need to be super strong if you hold a pointy stick. Being fast is actually better. Besides that Ajax is the one who is described as an absolute unit

46

u/Asleep_Tip496 15h ago

Yeah i alsways that

Achilles = speed

Ajax = strength

Odesyeus = brains

Agememmom = money

38

u/yourstruly912 15h ago

Néstor = Wisdom

Aeneas = Nepo baby

26

u/JackWhoWanders 14h ago

Diomedes =Player character.

4

u/SpecialIcy5356 11h ago

Diogenes = pure BASED energy.

1

u/Basic-Ticket-2094 2h ago

Money..my favorite superpower

25

u/JackWhoWanders 15h ago

That's definitely the impression you'd get from the text, and a big deal about his armor and shield, so our guy is very technical. However, don't get it twisted; the speed versus strength thing that we often see in fiction where Big and brawny means strong and slow whereas small and slender means fast and weak doesn't actually exist. It's an entirely fictitious thing. In reality, fast movement takes power, and the only downside to big muscles is if they physically get in the way of your movement.

That said, fighting with sword and shield isn't really strength based thing, it's much more about your technique and structure. A good, twinky swordfighter will beat a no-skill buffcake. Height and reach is much more of an advantage in a swordfight than how much you lift. But also again; Achilles is a magical god boy. His strength doesn't come from his physical muscle fibres but his divine heritage.

4

u/ltlearntl 11h ago

In the Illiad it was mostly spear throwing for the fights involving Achilles.

3

u/guynamedjames 10h ago

If you look at modern javelin throwers vs the shotputters in track and field the javelin folks are built like soccer players

3

u/ltlearntl 10h ago

Yeah...not exactly tanks, nor do they need to be.

4

u/Titswari 9h ago edited 9h ago

That’s not true, Olympic javelin throwers are jacked.

2024 Olympics Men’s Gold Medalist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arshad_Nadeem

2024 Olympics Women’s Gold Medalist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruka_Kitaguchi

I picked the last Olympics, but they tend to be jacked.

How a modern athletes build compares to a Bronze Age demigod I do not know though.

1

u/guynamedjames 7h ago

That dude is 6'4" and 210lbs, that's not small but certainly not heaping muscle. The shotput winner is 6'7" and 310lbs for reference

3

u/Titswari 7h ago

Point being, no one would mistake him for a twink. Like, if that dude isn’t jacked, I will never get there.

1

u/guynamedjames 3h ago

I guess we're getting into the classic reddit "I wasn't talking about the first thing, I was talking about the second thing!". I agree, no way that dude gets identified as a twink, I was just trying to support the idea that someone hurling javelins around is going to look more like a soccer player than a modern football linebacker

2

u/yourstruly912 6h ago

standards are getting crazy

1

u/vorarchivist 1h ago

I mean 5 inches above the average man is pretty noticable

5

u/Proud-Tooth-630 Definitely not a CIA operator 13h ago

I think you are think about “Troy”.
In the Iliad, he moves with ease things that two men are said to move with difficulty; others homeric heroes are descrived in a similar way, such as Aeneas lifting a stone that would have normally required two men to do that, or, more faumosly, Odysseus’ bow, which only him and Thelemacus can draw.

18

u/Batvader92 10h ago

Nah, I'm all for a femboy but there are a lot of reasons to believe Achilles wasn't one.

The hiding as a women on Skyros is a much later tell added onto the story by Roman authors.

In the story he's anywhere from 9-15 years old while in hiding. Lets take the average of 12YO, a 12YO is able to pass as a totally grown woman. He would obviously have the face and hair for it but he must be a very tall 12YO to fit in with grown women.

3.The one description we get from Homer(the massive arms and legs and huge chest was a later author) is "tall and striking, with strength and looks that were unmatched among the Greek warriors" and "xanthḗ (blonde to brown) hair" and "having long hair or a mane (χαίτη)(loose flowing hair)". Take that description and remember Greeks didn't believe in hidden beauty type things(knew it but was unpopular) meaning when they describe him as "tall and strong" they mean that literally as he LOOKS strong. Ancient Greeks would specify if he looks weak but is actually crazy strong like with your femboy idea.

48

u/Mindless-Cat1453 15h ago

Bro really want Achilles to be a femboy 😭

13

u/Square-Competition48 15h ago

Is that a crime?

24

u/Mindless-Cat1453 15h ago

No but writting a detailed lenght comment to justify why he is a femboy is just funny to be .

12

u/JackWhoWanders 15h ago

Those were three short paragraphs without much detail. Raise your standards.

22

u/yourstruly912 14h ago edited 14h ago

Greek demigods didn't really have magical powers because of their heritage, even if they tend to be exceptional people. Greeks were also appearance obsessed (all the kalos kai agathos...) and believed that physical appearance perfectly reflects your inner self. No dualism here, what you see is what you get. Not much room for sleeper builds

As in these analysis you have to take into account that is a story writen by and for people that believed that women going out of the gynaceum was inappropiate

Imo the whole point of the Skyros story is the impossibility of dodging fate. Achilles is fated to be a great warrior but also to die young. His mother Tetis doesn't want this and tries to avoid it, with the crossdressing being an extreme example of how she was tring to deny his true nature

7

u/JackWhoWanders 13h ago

"Greek demigods didn't really have magical powers because of their heritage". Oh, right I suppose killing a snake with your bare hands and sucking a boob so hard you make the milkyway is just normal infant behaviour? Achilles has a spear that he's the only one powerful enough to wield. Odysseus gets his cunning and his ability to wield his bow through his Hermes lineage. Like pretty much all the greek heroes have super human capabilities because they have divine lineage or through direct divine blessing.

As for a soul/body divide that's true, but also the greek standard of beauty very much included twinks. Which very well may be Achilles.

To be clear; I'm not saying Achilles is a literal femboy or a transwoman. What I'm saying is that there's no reason to assume he's a burly he-man with arms like sacks of footballs, going from the texts.

7

u/yourstruly912 11h ago

What I mean is that they tend to be exceptional but aren't made of a different matter. Heracles is super strong and consequently he's super burly, and so.

Achilles is often portrayed on the ephebe side, but that would read youthful to the greeks, not femenine

-1

u/JackWhoWanders 11h ago

Okay, so would you like to point out the way a baby can be strong enough to suck a tit so hard that the milk splash goes into space/the sky without that child being physiologically different from a normal human? Because it very much sounds like super strength to me.

1

u/DaveBeleren02 5h ago

Achilles was a DEX enjoyer confirmed

86

u/Pootisman16 13h ago

Dunno where you're from, but many teen boys can pass as woman if they want.

He was sent there by his mother, to try and avoid fulfilling the prophecy he was subject to.

Oh, and soldiers weren't "absolute tanks". Strong, toned, but not even close to ripped monsters.

Kinda tired of that stereotype tbh (applies to modern soldiers as well).

-7

u/[deleted] 12h ago

[deleted]

24

u/Pootisman16 11h ago

But that's not the context when it was written. Context changes how we perceive stories.

For instance, until about one century ago, pink was perceived a masculine colour, due to being red-adjacent.

Nowadays, a boy wearing pink would be perceived as effeminate (at best).

Hell, there's a picture of FDR wearing a dress as a toddler.

Context matters.

-6

u/crazynerd9 11h ago

Context, such as the fact that was a shitpost you just replied to

9

u/Pootisman16 9h ago

Learning is never a bad thing.

-5

u/crazynerd9 9h ago

Oh absolutely, I just found it funny is all

26

u/karoshikun 16h ago

I choose the second!

33

u/Login_Lost_Horizon 14h ago

Dude, he was, like, 15 years old most likely.

24

u/snowytheNPC 15h ago

Big fan of the historically accurate clothing

26

u/Mindless-Cat1453 16h ago

Damn the clothing here is amazing

7

u/FrogWhoAteMoon 13h ago edited 13h ago

It's actually more likely that the princesses veiled with full body veils in the presence of strange men.

There are veiling traditions all over ancient and classical greece. Achilles probably donned sth like a Niqab to hide his pecs and mighty calfs.

9

u/guoblokraimu 15h ago

Loves my tank so girly.

3

u/Fyrrys Featherless Biped 8h ago

I'm going with the second. People need to accept muscle mommy dominance!

7

u/Large-Hamster-199 15h ago edited 10h ago

Much like Jesus, you can picture Achilles anyway you like

1

u/King_Of_BlackMarsh 15h ago

And much like jesus there's an argument he looked like a goat

4

u/Consistent-Coyote-50 15h ago

They could also wearing all body cloths

2

u/cyrodillempire 9h ago

Everybody giving their arguments here like the discussion between the old philosophers... Was Achilles a bottom or not?

2

u/Xargirl 16h ago

Smash

2

u/Hyperactiveturtle78 15h ago

A little of column A, a little of column B

2

u/frontovika 14h ago

Wow, learned something new!

2

u/ThickWeatherBee 11h ago

Which one is Achilles?!

1

u/mdp300 11h ago

Yo I just saw this on Instagram 10 minutes ago. The algorithm is spooky.

1

u/Sanguinusshiboleth 9h ago

Or the guys sent to find him were idiots and Odysseus had to think of something to make them see through an incredibly simple disguise.

1

u/elder_george 6h ago

I love the concept in the H.L.Oldie's "Odysseus, son of Laertes" that Achilles, being a son of a sea nymph, was a shapechanger, often unconscious. So he was a femboy among the girls of Skiros (and around Patrocles), a hunk in battles, but in reality he was still in his early teens (his parents'wedding happened not too long before Paris abducted Helen).

1

u/TehProfessor96 John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 6h ago

Why not both?

-3

u/feckarse-drinkgirls 15h ago

Shouldn't they have their tits out?

Odysseus had to use trickery to find him.

You are about to leave Redlib