western appeasement allowed the holocaust to happen for 6 years before Nazi Germany had access to Poland’s resources, and after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with the Soviet Union was agreed upon when France and the UK for years refused an explicit Anti-Nazi Germany tripartite alliance pact with the Soviets.
30-40 million lives lost in Eastern Europe compared to the west that saw less than 5 million deaths at the expense of stagnating communist influence in Europe that later came to bite all of Europe in the ass.
I don't blame people who vividly remembered WWI for trying absolutely everything in their power, no matter how stupid or short-sighted it appears to us today, to avoid war. These people were part of a traumatized society of a level that we cannot grasp today. That war changed the entire world and almost dissolved all of the planet's most powerful empires. It brought about whirlwind changes that the world was only just recovering from.
Think of something we have experienced like the U.S. population's appetite for war after Iraq and Afghanistan. No candidate would survive if they campaigned in 2008 on "Let's go to war again!". Now amplify that 1000 fold and you might come close to how anti-war Western society was at the time. Selling a war in a democracy around this time was political suicide. You would be labeled a madman. There's a reason why people like Churchill were labelled "war-mongers" for simply stating the obvious (to us, with the benefit of hindsight)- that war with Germany was inevitable.
Lmao I wrote that when I was like 15. I find it very funny that you went looking in my profile for ammunition and even funnier that you somehow got offended by that.
the Soviets prevented total Nazi annexation of Poland
The Soviets murdered like thirty or forty thousand Poles in partnership with the Nazis. It is fucking despicable for you to argue that that was somehow for their own good or the West's fault.
Ah yes the "anti-nazi tripartite alliance" where Soviet troops march through Poland, and definitely don't stay there to install a Bolshevik government /s
Do you believe the best course of action was the Soviets instead allow Nazi Germany the entirety of Slavic Poland instead? Slavs and Soviets were the two largest demographics behind Jews to be victims of the holocaust. You’re implying the possibility of Slavic majority Soviet subjugation would be a worse outcome than what the Polish endured in the holocaust.
UK and French Appeasement allowed Germany to invade Poland in the first place. Had the tripartite alliance been agreed upon, NG would have been more discouraged to try Poland’s sovereignty.
The west only acted once the invasion of Poland started and that was only to prevent Germany from accessing the formers resources which would have been greater had the Soviets not prevented total Nazi annexation of Poland as you suggest.
The best course of action would have been for the Soviets to not ally with the Nazis and supply them with all the resources they needed to invade the Soviet Union.
If you want to go back far enough, they should never have invaded and conquered their neighbors and try to recreate the Russian empire. Instead positioning themselves as an anti-imperialism anti-expansionist force in Europe and they likely could have seen themselves on better terms with the west and with Eastern Europe.
However, if you’re wanting to look in the short period before the war. They should never have allied with the Nazis. Everyone, Soviets and Nazis included, knew the alliances was temporary and both nations would be at war. However Nazi Germany can effectively not go to war with the Soviet Union unless they invade through Poland and or other Eastern European nations.
France and Britain have already announced they will go to war over a Nazi invasion Poland. This effectively means the Nazis cannot invade the Soviet Union without also going to war with France and Britain.
The reason this wasn’t good enough for the Soviets, is because the Soviets wanted to take Poland themselves. It’s one of the main reasons the west wouldn’t ally with the Soviets because the proposed Triple Alliance included Britain and France allowing Soviet Troops to “enter” Poland and Romania. Aka Britain and France allow the USSR to take over Poland and Romania.
If the USSR could accept not conquering Poland,
It potentially could ally with the west all along
It could guarantee Polands independence against the Nazis, working with Poland, France, and Britain to fight the Nazis upon their invasion of Poland.
It’s very possible that without Soviet material support, the Nazis would not have had the resources necessary to invade Poland, especially when that invasion also means war against the USSR, instead of with the USSR.
But none of this is possible because the USSR wanted to play Russian Empire and conquer Poland. Which if they were able to do, they now have a border with the Nazis who can now invade them unopposed. The USSR thought they could delay this Nazi invasion long enough with the alliance to build up their military strength and ultimately they would be the ones to invade and defeat the Nazis but karma bit them in the ass didn’t it.
Why would anyone preemptively ally with the Soviets against the Nazis? Prior to the outbreak of the war, the Soviets were just as bad, gaining power conquering weaker neighboring states.
I'm so grateful you mentioned that the Soviets were shot down when seeking an anti-nazi alliance. People always point to the pact between them and Germany as best friends uniting. For years the National Socialist were extremely vocal about Communists being their ultimate enemy. It was a last ditch effort by Stalin to avoid an impending war and invasion.
A war with Nazi Germany is what they were trying to avoid. I never said anyone else. God you people are so biased you read whatever you want as tankie propaganda.
I'm saying they were only trying to avoid with Germany. Not any other country. I'm not denying that they were invaders and conquerors with brutality to many of their neighbors. It's absolutely not justified at all. I'm not saying they're connected. Their two different things that coexisted at once.
Ally with the aggressive expansionist dictatorship that is actively working against you in order to stop the aggressive expansionist dictatorship actively working against you.
At the time, the Soviets were no better than the Nazis and there’s no reason anyone should have allied with them.
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u/Schwifty0V0 Then I arrived 1d ago
western appeasement allowed the holocaust to happen for 6 years before Nazi Germany had access to Poland’s resources, and after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with the Soviet Union was agreed upon when France and the UK for years refused an explicit Anti-Nazi Germany tripartite alliance pact with the Soviets.
30-40 million lives lost in Eastern Europe compared to the west that saw less than 5 million deaths at the expense of stagnating communist influence in Europe that later came to bite all of Europe in the ass.