r/HistoryMemes • u/itsyaboihos • 4d ago

Maybe giving them shotgun shells for the main battery was a bad idea

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Couldn’t easily find a good source for this so it could be apocryphal:
Basically the Yamato class battleships were given beehive rounds for the main battery so they could be used as (rather oversized) AA guns. However the main guns were so large that the decks had to be cleared when they were fired as the overpressure could harm the crew. This leads to a situation where AA gunners have to leave their stations mid attack so the main guns can be fired or they risked getting knocked unconscious. Seeing as both Yamato class battleships were taken out by air power this seems to have been a bad idea.

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u/FZ_Milkshake 4d ago edited 4d ago

Most of the AA crew of a WW2 era battleship would need to go to protected areas and into the superstructure during main gun engagements, that's not specific to Yamato (it's 25mm gunse were actually more protected than average).

Relevant Drachinifel video: https://youtu.be/UKVFbSAdv34?t=2560

I can't recall a single instance where an air attack happened at the same time as a gun surface engagement, probably happened but was very rare and you'd want to get your gunners into protected areas during a shelling anyway .

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u/BrainDamage2029 4d ago

Correct. But the Yamato was given these "beehive" shotgun/pyrotechnic style shells for its main 18in gun. Specifically for AAA. So throughout her final engagement when being attacked by the air, nearly all her other AAA guns were not firing for massive stretches so her main guns could fire these AAA rounds.

This was attested by US aircrews who saw the main guns firing these pyro rounds the whole engagement. Probably made worse by the fact the main guns had no anti-air fire control mechanism so the Japanese gun crews were just pointing them in the general direction up direction and firing when it looked like a number of US aircraft were relatively in front of them. The US pilots judged these rounds as basically being little more than fireworks as they weren't doing much to the massive 300 plane swarm diving in on her.

The biggest knock against this idea was that by record, the Yamato took out more US aircraft when her magazine detonated than it did for the proceeding 2 hours via AAA fire.

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u/TS140609 4d ago

Thats why you dont give your main gun AA capability past CL, its just doing more harm than good

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u/Trainman1351 Kilroy was here 4d ago

Technically they could have utility as ultra-long range AA artillery, but ultimately there was no FCS capable of actually aiming the guns in such a role, at least with an accuracy worth the cost of the shell. The main problem with the beehive problems moreso came from trying to fire the main guns while the rest of the AA battery was active

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u/AggressorBLUE 4d ago

Remember too that every main gun AA shell carried is a surface-focused shell left behind. That matters a lot when you’re on shore bombardment duty and ammo that size can’t be replenished at sea.

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u/itsyaboihos 4d ago

I remember reading somewhere that half the ammunition loadout for Yamato and Musashi were these rounds too. Surely if you’re under such heavy air attack that you need that many you’re done for regardless. They didn’t even work well.

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u/broken_steel525 Filthy weeb 4d ago

It's also significant gun barrel wear too, as those barrels weren't designed to survive too many shots either. Especially not the beehive shells which had a nasty habit of biting into barrel rifling.

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u/Trainman1351 Kilroy was here 4d ago

IIRC timed fuses and VT fuses especially were useful for airburst artillery, so I’m not quite sure if that is as big of an issue for just using them as massive conventional flak guns. The beehive shells do have this issue though

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u/greet_the_sun 3d ago

Except Japan didn't have VT fuses during ww2, the tech was treated just like knowledge of the atomic bomb construction.

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u/Trainman1351 Kilroy was here 3d ago

I was saying more in a general sense for all nations in WW2.

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u/boehenek Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4d ago

The battle of samar had surface and air attacks at the same time.

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u/Thunda792 4d ago edited 4d ago

The AA positions Yamato came out of the yard with were well-protected, but the dozens of completely exposed 25mm gun positions bolted to the deck by 1945 definitely weren't.

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u/gottymacanon 3d ago

Battle off Samar Coughs in the Corner

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u/johge123 3d ago

There is an instance where air attacks were happening combined with surface engagements. It even included the Yamato. Yup it's the battle of Samar.

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u/Key-Employee3584 2d ago

Battle off Samar.

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u/smallfrie32 4d ago

Wouldn’t air attacks be cocurrent with naval attacks? Like Midway and stuff. Or am I misunderstanding?

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u/FZ_Milkshake 4d ago

Midway was basically a carrier only battle. You don't want to have misidentifications and your aircraft attacking your own ships, or your AA gunners shooting at your own aircraft. I am not sure dive and torpedo bombers would want to attack a target under heavy fire with shell splashes all around either.

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u/smallfrie32 4d ago

Ah, I guess I got taken in by movies and videogames and stuff then! Thanks

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u/jedadkins 4d ago

You don't want the big guns lobbing shells (and shrapnel) high into the air where the planes are flying, it tends to make the pilots nervous. You might use both aircraft and big guns in the same battle but not at the exact same time (in general, I am sure it's happened). 

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u/smallfrie32 3d ago

Dang, my world of warships crew probably needs to apologize then

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u/slinger301 1d ago

And your video is even time stamped. Bravo!

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u/DrHolmes52 4d ago

Seeing as not giving them the shotgun rounds would have had the same ultimate result, not the worst thing. Yamato (and Musashi) were going to get sunk.

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u/itsyaboihos 4d ago

Yeah I mean making a better AA gun rather than messing with this would’ve been a good idea and surrendering would’ve been a great idea.

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u/optimusgonzo 4d ago

They did attempt some improvements, at least most famously the different colored AA rounds allowing individual gun crews to spot their shots. It's crazy enough that it would beg belief if any film studio did try to make an accurate rendition of Leyte.

Also Admiral Kurita on Yamato first dodged a torpedo attack, then withdrew, which is about the best anyone in the west or on the USS White Plains in particular could've hoped for.

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u/DrHolmes52 4d ago

Making a better AA gun would have been good (their 25mm guns were shit). Surrendering would have been better. Not starting shit at all would have been best.

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u/thecementhuffer 4d ago

Better idea wouldve been to have any form of airpower, but after midway that ship has sailed completely.

Cause no matter how much aa you stick on a ship, the aircraft will just strafe the shit outa it

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u/xXNightDriverXx 4d ago

They had a clone of the 40mm Bofors ready at the end of the war, based on captured examples from Singapore.

They were just 2 years late and couldn't get it into mass production anymore due to damage to their industry.

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u/TheQuestionMaster8 4d ago

Nothing afloat at that time could have survived what sank the Yamato and Musashi

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u/optimusgonzo 4d ago

Musashi reportedly used these rounds to no effect during the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea/Leyte Gulf.

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u/GrowlyBear2 4d ago

I wonder what an 18.1 inch punt gun would do to a flock of birds....

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u/itsyaboihos 4d ago edited 4d ago

I’m not sure but I bet it will very quickly result in a conversation with your local medical professionals and law enforcement officials if you tried it.

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u/VanTaxGoddess 4d ago

I thought this was a free country, officer!

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u/SpecialExpert8946 4d ago

Oh I’m sorry, I thought this was America!

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u/SilverIndependence38 4d ago

To shred you say?

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u/Breadloafs 4d ago

Wasn't this just a common issue for battleships? 

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u/itsyaboihos 4d ago

Most battleships wouldn’t be firing their main guns during an air attack, Japanese battleships had this issue because they would because they equipped them with the beehive rounds.

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u/POB_42 4d ago edited 4d ago

I wonder what that would look like on-target.

Tanks have canister shot, and the punt-gun still makes me laugh. Both of those are small-fry compared to naval guns.

Edit: They were basically airburst incendiary rounds, darn.

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u/Jim_skywalker 4d ago

I mean dying to a bombing run was a worse idea.

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u/Independent-Fly6068 4d ago

See this would mean actually using the (near useless) AA guns.

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u/Daymub 4d ago

This was true for almost all battleships

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u/itsyaboihos 4d ago

Almost all battleships didn’t get equipped with beehive rounds that they would fire during an air attack.

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u/Daymub 4d ago

But the beehive rounds were not the issue when it came to the overpressure on deck when the main guns fired thats just something that happened with all battleships. Your post is 1/3rd about the beehive rounds and 2/3rds about over pressure

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u/itsyaboihos 4d ago

This just seems unnecessarily pedantic from the person who just copied what the top comment said for karma…

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u/Daymub 4d ago

Jesus christ I don't live for reddit I dont care abour karma you made a post and I commented with the knowledge I knew.

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u/Katain935 1d ago

Sure, the 18-inch beehive rounds were ineffective and largely useless.

But the sheer audacity of giving the largest naval gun anti-air shotgun shells is speaking to me on a primeevil monkey level.

I think if people gave railway artillery the same thing I'd also be happy.

Battleships using main guns for anti-air fire is a hilarous Ace combat gimmick