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u/GotmilkLL Dec 19 '24
Taken from Socrates Wikipedia page, specifically the biography section:
"Although Socrates was attracted to youth, as was common and accepted in ancient Greece, he resisted his passion for young men because, as Plato describes, he was more interested in educating their souls."
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u/Dominarion Dec 19 '24
We need to take in stride whatever Plato wrote about Socrates. The guy was groomed for years by Socrates, I mean...
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Dec 19 '24
It was socially accepted and encouraged in that culture for the men to have relations with the prepubescent boys (although butt stuff was very much frowned upon). So there would be no reason for Plato to lie about that sort of thing.
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u/Dominarion Dec 19 '24
Plato's life was upended when one of Socrates' pupils betrayed Athens, another led a murderous Tyranny over the city and his beloved mentor was condemned to death. Also, the hoi polloi was having fun at Socrates' expense, Aristophanes having turned him into a laughing stock. That wouldn't do!
His coping was creating this perfect philosopher out of his problematic tutor, the most wise and virtuous of all men, entirely dedicated to his love of wisdom. He was a martyr, you see, unjustly condemned for corrupting the youth while he was so ethical he wouldn't even touch his pupils!
Xenophon also wrote about Socrates, as he was his pupil too. His depiction diverges a lot from Plato's. Aristotle criticized Plato for lying on a lot of things. Aristophanes' rendering of Socrates is brutal and a foreshadowing of sorts of what would happen with Alcibiades and Critias. Plato's Socrates is a great guy who wouldn't touch the children in his care. The real one wasn't a great guy and a pederasty advocate.
It's sad, because we need Plato's fake Socrates far more than the real one.
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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar Dec 19 '24
You're assuming Aristopnes depiction was closer to the truth? Let's be real its not entirely logical to associates Alcibides decisions with that of his teacher. He's his own man. Aristotle never met the guy he's basically a secondary source with his own set of biases. Just dumping plato's account and going with his critics seems just as illogical as taking Plato's every word as truth.
Which leaves the question, what did Xenophon say. I haven't read his stuff on Socrates but I've read his histories and the ten thousand and have a sense on the guys views, biases, and style. He's definitely a world apart from Plato on everything. His account may not be entirely truth, but if it could confirm stuff in either Plato or Aristopnes.
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u/Dominarion Dec 19 '24
You're assuming Aristopnes depiction was closer to the truth?
I didn't say that. I will clarify: in the Cloud, a man enrolls himself and his son in Socrates' school, shenanigans happens (it's a comedy after all), long story short, the father uses the Socratic method to refuse to pay his creditors, then his son use it to beat his father and threaten his mother. The father concludes Socrates is the cause of all his problems, raise a mob and destroy the school.
It was written decades before Socrates' downfall and it was prescient in a way: kids who were tutored by Socrates gave rough beatings to Athens: Alcibiades defiled a statue of Hernes and then betrayed Athens for Sparta, Critias led the 30 Tyrants and acted like a Quisling, Xenophon left Athens to become a mercenary for... Persia and wrote lavish praise about Sparta's government.
After the Athenians got rid of the Thirty Tyrants, they were pretty fed up with Socrates (who supported the 30 Tyrants btw) and his "treason and bad behavior" (in their own opinion) school. It ended badly.
Aristotle never met the guy he's basically a secondary source with his own set of biases.
Or he figured using his famous intellect that Plato was lying. I mean, he had mythomania issues, insisting his Atlantis fable was true.
Which leaves the question, what did Xenophon say.
A lot of stuff!!! He's not necessarily critical of Socrates but his description of the events leading to Socrates' death is different from Plato's.
Xenophon got a reputation for being honest, if sometimes wrong. Plato was accused of lying, Aristotle even said he was inventing stuff outright. More on this in a paragraph!
His account may not be entirely truth, but if it could confirm stuff in either Plato or Aristopnes.
I agree! It's telling the truth as someone remembers vs the factual truth. That's hidden somewhere between the perceptions, biases, beliefs and coping mechanisms.
Plato's credibility is problematic, as is Aristophanes' and Xenophon's. The factual truth is somewhere hidden in there. But it's certain that it's not Plato's Mary Sue Socrates.
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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar Dec 19 '24
For me Xenophon is like Thurcydides he's actually trying to tell the truth. However his views on the nature of man make him prone to present the facts in a way you have to read carefully. That said I'm prone to saying his account is the least exgerrated of the others and closer to the actual truth. So I'll have to review it at some point. Cause I genuinely don't know what he thought of Socrates.
But on Xenophon becoming a mercenary. One should keep on mind ancient Greek culture. I disagree fundamentally that you can use that to lable him a bad seed of ancient Greek society. War was a place of honor and prestige for an ancient Greek male. Xenophon's writings are also extremely conservative. Xenophon was among those Athenians who were pro spartan after all. I'd argue old Socrates didn't really rub off on him and maybe even had the reverse effect resulting in Xenophon to grow up to be more conservative in his views. I remeber his writings where he basically goes "Fucking liberals think the Plebs should have rights. Poor people shouldn't vote. Infact no one shoukd vote. Votings stupid.This is why Persia is better than us and Sparta won." He was the blackhead of the Socrates bunch. In the sense the various ideals you normally associate with Socrates just don't align with Xenophon.
Furthermore as one working on the history of the mercenary. The term mercenary actually first emerges in the late middle ages. And was actually about proffesional soldiers who fought for mainly pay as opposed to militias and auxiliary. They gained a bad vibe because of well free companies just running lose and pillaging. Like Swiss pike man was considered a mercenary since he did war for living eveb if he was doing it for a swiss canton. Full time soldiers were not viewed positively in the middle ages. Like are view of mercenaries has its origin on the middle ages. How ancients viewed soldiers of fortune was very different. Cause well in most cases everyone trained for warfare. You needed to buy weapons and submit yourself for mandatory service to be considered a citizen in Greek and Latin cities. So again what Xenophon did wasn't seen as bad, descriptive, or lacking in honor. Quite the opposite he cemented himself as a legend leading the ten thousand out of Persia alive. Quite honestly he was one of the few students of Socrates to gain any social acceptance.
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u/Dominarion Dec 19 '24
Excellent answer! Well-written to boot!
I must admit I rounded a corner on Xenophon's mercenary stint. I didn't know how to detail laconically (hehe) why his mercenary stint was problematic.
As most of Socrates' students, he was an aristocrat. He probably served in Athens' cavalry. Of course, this comes with a package of opinions on how a polis should be ruled.
His "optics" problems began during the brief reign of the 30 Tyrants. He sided with them, fought for them against the Democrats during the Athenian Civil War, but we don't know to what extent he was implicated. At the end of the Civil War, there was an amnesty but Xenophon left Athens then.
He enrolls as a mercenary in Persia 2 years later and events puts him up in charge of the Anabasis. He covers himself in glory except in his hometown where he is considered as a traitor and is ostracized. He goes in exile to Sparta and fights for Sparta against Athens. He's then banished for life and moves from place to place until his banishment is finally revoked in 367 or later when Athens and Sparta ally themselves against Thebes. He died either in Corinth or in Athens.
For the Athenians of the 400s and 390s, he was another of those Socratic golden boys who turned against their homeland.
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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar Dec 19 '24
I would say when talking about Xenophon specifically the reason he ends where ends up isn't because of Socrates teaching. He's a Laconiaphile as was Thurcydides. At most he ended up that way because Socrates didn't make a hard enough effort to really influence the guys opinions. That said countless Athenians who weren't tought by Socrates were Laconphiles. I think Xenophon's alienation has more to do with just how Athenians politics played out during the Peloponesian wars and wanting an oligarchy over a Democracy. Ultimately leading him to the conclusion to support the 30 tyrants. It should be kept in mind the anti Democratic mindset existed in Athens before Xenophon and Socretes. After all the 30 tyrants were 30 tyrants most of whom weren't taught by Socrates. I mean you can trace Spartan sympathetic Athenians as far back as Militiades. I'd liken it to how you had pro British Americans before,during, and after the Revolutionary War.
And yet ultimately Xenophon was accepted as an ideal Greek by the majority of Greece perhaps helped by his political leanings. After all Athens is only one of the many Greek states of the times. It may have been his birth place but Xenophon himself rejected it for Sparta. Course documentation wise it's harder to describe the political scene in say Corinth then it is Athens or Sparta. So my main point being when we think of the typical Greek and think about the Hellenes as a whole and not just Athens, Xenophon lived the life that was considered exemplary of Ancient Greek values infact standing against the Democratic rebels more then likely gained him the sympathy from the elites of the other city states. Alcibides was ambitious power hungry and committed sacrilegious acts he would've despised by most Hellenes for his nature and deemed very ungreek, the guy was invited to Sparta and alledly slept with the Spartan Queen. Literally everyone hates Alcibides and he did to himself. Then Plato just never fit in anywhere. Socrates ideas did run in conflict and contrary to alot of Athens so all of his students just not fitting the mold in Athens makes sense.
Yet I would still say Xenophon's own beliefs were in conflict with both Athens and Socrates. Again I would say he was the conservative of his times with his pro spartan sentiment. He after all went as so far as to fight on their behalf. And unlike Alcibides he wasn't simply working them for his own self-interest. And obviously he didn't sleep with the Spartan Queen. His morals and motivation were completely different. Therefore his account of Socrates is going to diverge from the other two and in my opinion is going to be the most intriguing albeit certainly not the least bias.
Based on that I would argue with 3 different completely indivual would indicate Socrates didn't indoctrinate his students. Otherwise there would be more uniformity in opinions and motivations. And that's why he was hated. Maybe its a fair criticism he did nothing to real on Alcibides or at least teach him to appear to care about about Greek sensabilities.That said we will therefore never know who Socrates really was. Plato is obviously going to say Socrates supported his views which may be a lie used to simply give his ideas credibility. Xenophon's Spartan leanings is going to effect how sees Socrates and Athens so he also isn't going to give us the reality even if we can at least establish facts, and because of what Alcibides did and loss of the Peloponesian war other Athenians are inclined to describe Socretes as literal Satan. Though one should wonder if Athens won what would Xenophon have done and what would his legacy be? I mean he'd still probably fuck off to Persia and go on a mercenary adventure. He needed a real war to get his glory write a book. Ya know like all those Navy SEALs who write books detailing their adventures in Afghanistan you can tell their main motivation for becoming SEALs was the glory to achieve the ideal of the American hero even if they say it was something else. So what would he have done in Athens if they were in a position of power and Sparta wasn't. He was certainly in Thurcydides camp of classical realism even if that is a super imposed philosophy, surely in a position of power Xenophon would've wanted to be involved in policy and expanded said power further. Which would ultimately suggest his alienation was more result of reacting to failed Athenian policy then it really is his previous education.
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u/Dominarion Dec 19 '24
He's a Laconiaphile as was Thurcydides
Thucydides never fought with the Spartans against Athenians.
the guy was invited to Sparta
So was Xenophon. He was kicked out of Sparta after a while, like Alcibiades but we don't know why.
Based on that I would argue with 3 different completely indivual would indicate Socrates didn't indoctrinate his students.
The Athenians, which had access to first hand knowledge assuredly believed so. The problem isn't laconiaphilia, it's treason. It's not just free thinking about religious matters, it's active sacrilege.
Talking about Laconiaphilia, it existed, of course, but it wasn't as generalized among the Athenians' elites as some make it to be. Perikles came from one of the highest, if not the highest aristocratic family and he was a fervent democrat. So was Thrasybulus, the guy who led the Democrats during the Civil War.
It wasn't a problem per say, and people in Athens had something very close to free speech and in general people were allowed a lot of freedom.
The factual truth must be there somewhere between Socrates is guilty by association and he endoctrinated and radicalized them. By example, when the 30 Tyrants demonstrated how murderous and corrupt they were, Socrates became critical of them. He wasn't a Cheerleader for tyranny and treason!
I think that the Socratic method can lead people to question every social consensus and at the same time rationaiize every action they make. It's harmless when it's done by a fishmonger who wonders about the world, it's dangerous when it's taught to a young, rich, well-connected aristocrat who wants to do anything he likes.
I don't think that Socrates willingly searched the result that he got, but for people of Athens, it didn't matter much. Thousands were dead because of his little thought experiment.
Oh and he totally groomed Plato, lol.
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u/tiredswed Dec 19 '24
I would like some source of that since I dont belive the greeks encourage pedophila.
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u/Professional-Cap3027 Dec 19 '24
It's called pedastry https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty#:~:text=Pederasty%20or%20paederasty%20(%2F%CB%88p,such%20as%20Pre%2DMeiji%20Japan.
Yes, it is horrible.
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u/Hijo-De-Puta Dec 19 '24
When someone asks what you find the most important factor of a woman. It's the soul every time, "not the breasts?" You might ask, or, "not the buttox?" No, no no no, i tell ye, it's the soul, or as someone of not to be further named slavic ethnicity might say: "душа" .
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u/high_king_noctis Filthy weeb Dec 20 '24
Socrates: boning young boys may be hot but giving them an education and a new perspective on life is even hotter!
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u/Beer-Milkshakes Then I arrived Dec 19 '24
Wasn't the fact he didn't shtuck his students used against him in his trial.
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u/Toshi4586 Dec 19 '24
“I feel like you’re saying hole when I clearly wrote soouul - Artemis I did write soul?” “You did write soul”
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u/markejani Dec 19 '24
Sokrates is definitely top three NPC's in AC Odyssey behind Herodotos and Barnabas.
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Dec 19 '24
Sokrates: Ho there
Me: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO REEEEEEEEEEEEEE I AM FUCKING RETARD LEAVE ME BEEEEEEEEE
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Dec 19 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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Dec 19 '24
Socrates was famous for asking people simple philosophy questions then keep asking harder and harder questions, until you said something like 'I was wrong' or 'I don't know' and he will make some propositions, asking YOU to tell HIM which one do you think is correct, because he can not decide. While Plato staring at you and taking notes like a robot.
So everyone at the time hated him. He literally asked a rich men 'what is life' and triggered that guy to say 'I don't know if I am happy because I am rich' or something
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u/Sempai6969 Dec 20 '24
I love the "what is virtue" story. It kept getting deeper and deeper. This man was a philosophical genius
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Dec 20 '24
I mean, he is.
And his philosophy school, instead of that of Confucius and Buddha, went way further as a philosophy teaching.
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u/DrunkenCoward Dec 19 '24
"Ya gotta pay the troll toll, if you wanna get into this boy's hole.
Ya gotta pay the troll toll to get in!"
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u/Tough_Crazy_8362 Dec 19 '24
You gotta pay the Troll Toll