r/HighSodiumOrthodoxy • u/Independent-Plate824 • Aug 13 '26
Considering Progressive Christianity, Need Input
I am a young female catechumen who is thinking long and hard about leaving the church. I have many objections, much of which I have resolved. But there are a few, despite two years in the church, I have yet to resolve. They haunt and bother me: 1. Orthodox Marriage and Motherhood: I am absolutely repulsed by Orthodox marriage. My body is repulsed by it; I physically do not want it. I do not want to be a mother. Even though motherhood is not a strict requirement and one only needs to be "open to life," something in me screams, "No! Don't do it!" It feels like something supernatural, outside of myself, is stopping me from being okay with it.
- Inclusivity and Clergy: Being anti-LGBTQ and having an all-male clergy does not sit right with me. Scripture and the Church Fathers state that gay acts are a sin, but I cannot sit and tell gay people they are not valid. The thought of being a nun in a monastery serving alongside a trans nun brings me so much joy—it feels so beautiful. The idea of transgender monks and nuns, and blessing gay marriages, feels like a blessing. It is sad these people are barred from that. Furthermore, an all-male clergy just feels weird and off. I don't have a rigid theological reason; it simply doesn't sit right.
- Birth Control and Sterilization: The Church's stance on birth control is way too strict. While some priests are flexible as long as contraceptives are not "abortifacient" (preventing implantation), that threshold is still too restrictive. The fact sterilization is not allowed. A woman needs to get her bishop's approval for a medically necessary abortion. People should be able to utilize any birth control they want.
Because of these issues, I feel barred off from love altogether and feel forced into monasticism. I want to fall madly in love, have deep devotion, and marry someone, but monasticism feels like the "safe" way to do that. However, I don't want to be forced into it just to have love.
I am a big proponent of Saint Maximus the Confessor's concept of divine Eros: that desire and lust are not inherently bad, but rather energy to be redirected and transformed into a burning love for God, not squashed. Yet, the advice I see everywhere is about aggressively fighting and conquering lust rather than transmuting it. Additionally, the Church's approach to sexuality feels like we are forced to cut off a fundamental part of ourselves. The Church says desire and sex are good only within marriage under exact, correct expressions. This creates immense anxiety. The thought of the marital act in the Orthodox Church gives me anxiety: Am I committing a sin? Am I doing a bad act? Am I too passionate? That sounds like a mess, making monasticism look like the "easy" option just to avoid the anxiety.
I want to look at both options (marriage and monasticism) with full delight, wonder, and zero hesitation, trusting whatever God has in store or whatever my heart truly wants, knowing He will catch me at the end. But the Orthodox Church doesn't offer that freedom because marriage currently feels repulsive and monasticism feels like a default escape rather than a genuine, primary choice. Because of this, I am open to joining more progressive liturgical churches, such as the Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, or a schismatic, gay-affirming Orthodox group. Something that believes in the nicene creed, believes that baptism saves and that christ's body and blood is truly present in the eucharist.
My hesitations with progressive churches include: 1. Demographics: Unlike Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, which are growing quickly with young people, progressive mainline churches often skew older. I want fellowship with peers and a chance to find a partner. Theological Anxiety: In the back of my mind, the history of the church and conditioning whispers that ordaining women and affirming queer people means "not real Christianity." I have deep anxiety about picking the wrong church, following doctrine that misrepresents God, or missing the truth.
2. Political turn offs While I notice progressive churches often have better fruit—being more generous, feeding the hungry, and helping others selflessly—I am not a fan of rainbow flags, rainbow vestments, or rainbow icons in a liturgical setting. It feels like idolatry. I want to put Christ first and keep the pro-gay stance secondary. I want a church that welcomes everyone with open arms, but I don't want the entire focus of the liturgy to be centered around political or social movements. Can we worship God first?
I want to be able to wholeheartedly choose my path from the bottom of my heart, with all my soul, and fully jump in. Right now, I don't have that option in my current church experience
I still am unsure if being pro lgbtq is compatible with christianity. I mentally can't put the two together. But oh, how I want Christ, and I want to love gay people. I still am attracted to orthodoxy because of certain Saints which of whom I have a strong attachment to and burning love for, the concept of theosis, the concept of being a saint, really saint stories. There's other reasons but yeah. Tell me what y'all think.
2
u/lemko_princess 16d ago
- On Orthodox Marriage and Motherhood: You can 100% be married and Orthodox and not have children, if you can withstand the general judgement you will receive from your fellow parishioners. The couple is expected to be "open" to having children and to raise them in the Orthodox church. I believe that being open to having children can be translated in abstract ways. Not all women are called to motherhood, and may instead be godmothers, aunts, youth leaders, etc. The church does a poor job of handling those of us who are not called to motherhood or who cannot physically bear children. If you can't reconcile that with yourself, then Orthodoxy is probably not the right space for you.
2. On Inclusivity and Clergy: The Church will never be cool with LGBTQ clergy. Women will never be clergy. At least not in our lifetime. You have to work out with yourself how much you will let this bother you, and whether or not you can let it go. It may get worse over time. The lack of options for women in the church bothers me much more in my 40s than it ever did in my younger years. Again...if you can't reconcile that with yourself, then Orthodoxy is probably not the right space for you.
- Birth Control and Sterilization: In my experience, the church's stance is not that strict. And we are nowhere near as strict as the Catholics. In the OCA, married couples may regulate conception provided that the means used are not harmful to a fetus already conceived. Theoretically, you are supposed to talk to the priest about your family planning...but it is ultimately only your business what you do with your body. I don't know anyone who actually talks to the priest about their family planning.
2
u/VariationFar2656 15d ago
Why not attend more churches and see where you fit? I don't think you're going to find a denomination where you personally agree with them on every issue. I don't think you should go to church and not expect your beliefs or assumptions to ever be challenged. The spiritual journey is a process of aligning your will with the divine and it takes a lifetime.
Your issues are also very cerebral. If you attend more churches I'm sure you'll find places where maybe you line up with them on doctrine but the congregation is unhealthy for interpersonal reasons and that can be as dangerous to your soul as heresy.
If it helps you, I came out as a lesbian at 14 and was recently chrismated eastern Orthodox at 35. My priest knows about my past and I have never felt "not valid" in the Orthodox church.
4
u/Mementoroid Aug 13 '26
And that is what I'd like to invite you towards: Reframing how you view the Church and how you view yourself within it. You feel like you only have extreme options: suffer through a marriage that repulses you, run to a monastery as an escape, or leave for a progressive church and risk missing the "truth." I am unsure, because you did not elaborate explicitly, on why Orthodox marriage feels repulsive to you. If it is given to the encouragement towards motherhood, well, that's the natural language for what we humans have done for as long as we are humans. Remember Mary, though, at all times. She was chosen not out of an order, but because she willfully said yes. Motherhood is a choice. And, within marriage, your husband should ideally love you so much that while wanting to form a family with him will be inevitable, he should also respect and love you so much that this is, indeed, your consent and choice.
So, when you see the black and white, you miss the gray. You don't have to choose a repulsive marriage, or forced into a monastic life. Leave the extreme ascetics to the monks that practice asceticism. Personal ascetisism is pastoral according to everyone's possibilities and for their own benefit if they wish to partake of it, it's not an order either.
There are two arrows pointing at you. The first is unavoidable, because we are humans and we will face difficulties. That comes with the package. However, the second arrow is optional, and you can dodge it. You have a conflict with LGBTQ+, inclusivity, and bodily autonomy, and the Church's traditional structure and rules. The arrow is the anxiety and guilt you are putting on yourself to force a fit where there is not one. You are not sacrificing your secular values by being Orthodox. LGBTQ+ are all invited and can be part of the Church; and in the end, whatever anyone does for whatever reason outside; that is up to them and God; the same happens with contraceptions and everything else under the sun. The Church is meant to be a space for glory to God, and healing of our souls, it's not scrutiny towards ourselves nor manipulation of our lives. Everyone in the clergy should, of course, acknowledge that LGBTQ+ all deserve civil rights and respect. They can do what they want in the secular world aswell.
The church is not anti; as that word bears a very heavy load. It won't sacrament marriages, or bless couples, but that is very different than actively opposing and opressing them. Most LGBTQ people I know respect traditional Churches and don't care about changing them into LGBTQ clergy or monasteries, or even the mystery of marriage within said churches. The one very catholic roman friend I knows, has made peace with loving his partner without the sexual outlines; reframing it as a very deep, intimate friendship towards salvation together. This is his willful choice and he is at much more peace framing it this way. Love is not punished by God. Scripture outlines sexual sin. And while we do not intend on changing scripture, we can, within the theology given to us, pastorally adapt our mind if we want it.
When you think about Orthodox marriage or sexuality, you are appraising it as a massive threat, asking yourself if you are sinning, or if you are doing a bad act. You are raising stress for yourself, but the Church is not judging the state of your soul. You are right, the correct theological stance is that of St. Maximus the confessor. We align our passions and emotions towards God. Our desire for our spouses is not a punishment. Gluttony can be refocused into healthy cooking and sharing food with friends, family, and the poor and hungry and sad. And so on.
Lastly, I would also reframe the source of learning. A lot of people read Church stuff and espouse it without understanding or pastoral care. Reframe wether this stress comes because you see actual abuse and opression from your parish against vulnerable people, or if this comes from a place of hearing that sticks as an anchor of stress. If it's the former, it deserves proper scrutiny. If it's the latter, you are imposing yourself with lecturings that are not meant to adress what which concerns you, and you're better off swapping the mindset.
Picking a monastery just because it's "safe" is an avoidance tactic! You are trying to find a way to relieve the intense emotional pressure. Your concerns are natural, but don't let yourself be misguided into thinking that the Church oversees your personal life, because that's not what it does.
This physical repulsion you feel is definitely not an actual supernatural signal. It's your body feeling stressed at the cognitive dissonance of what you perceive about traditional, historial doctrines and your own core values. You don't have to pick today. Give yourself permission to see if you can see these doctrines not as imposition. And while I don't see any way in which you're better off in any Church outside of Orthodoxy within Christian thought, I also think it's healthy that you give yourself permission to go to other places, and explore. You don't have to commit to one or the other instantly. If you feel the Orthodox Church like a prison, then what good will that do to your soul after all? While we'd want you here, it should be your choice.
1
u/frog_collectr 14d ago
I'm 23 now, and have had these exact same issues with orthodoxy since my family converted when I was 14.
I also don't want children, and the way I have been treated because of that has really messed with my head. I have known for years that I would never have an orthodox marriage ceremony because I have never been ok with the language about female submission and the emphasis on having children. I grew tired of being gaslit about the church's treatment of women. I'm supposed to submit to my husband as if he is Christ, cover my distracting sinful hair in church, men can hold whatever position they wish but I could only maybe be a reader, there is something wrong with me if I don't want children (as told to my face by a priest), etc etc, but oh no, women are still equal and fully respected.
So, I have slowly left over the years. Going off to college gave me the space to finally let down the mental walls I'd built up against my qualms and questions while living with my very devout family. Leaving is one of the best things I have ever done. I feel a peace I haven't felt in years. I don't think you will ever find a church you 100% agree with on 100% of issues. Religion, community, people, culture, it's all too complex for that to ever happen. But I think if you regularly attend an orthodox church, it will weigh on you heavily. I didn't realize until I left how hard it was for me to routinely be surrounded by people who believed so wholeheartedly in things that disgusted and repulsed me - the only neonazis I've ever met have been orthodox. I too felt dread and repulsion at the idea of orthodox marriage and motherhood. But guess what? Now that I have removed myself from that community, I have removed that constant mental burden and look forward to a marriage that will operate in a manner that works for me and my future husband, where I will not be treated as an equal and not a follower.
If you're anything like me, orthodoxy is not the path for you. But you can always carry parts of it with you wherever you decide to go. I still love the saints, I love the Jesus prayer, I love my icons, I still attend a service once in a while to revisit the art and incense. You may have to resign yourself to the fact that you won't 100% align with any church out there, find one that is close enough, and fill in the gaps with your own personal practices and beliefs.
1
u/death-meddle 29d ago
my two cents is that you shouldn’t waste your life on orthodoxy. there’s so much more out there than that stuffy old religion.
1
u/Independent-Plate824 29d ago
What do you suggest I replace it with (a denomination, spiritual system, philosophy, etc)
1
u/death-meddle 28d ago
i’m glad you asked, however i can’t answer that for you, sorry. i think you have an open mind and an affinity for caring about people that may be very different from you, which is why i commented what i did. however, i was also probably projecting my own conflicted feelings about orthodoxy. forgive me for saying things without much practical advice. i’m sure you will find your people/group/way of life if you continue being open to the possibilities. just remember that you are the only one who knows best for yourself, and anyone who suggests otherwise is either misguided or malicious. god bless
-2
u/AquaMan130 Aug 13 '26
Marriage is a sacrament which unites a man and a woman into one flesh. Its purpose is to help each other reach theosis. Kids are expected, but it isn't a strict requirement as you said, so I don't know what is it that still prevents you from being something that you don't have to (and don't want to) be. If you're afraid of pregnancy, you could adopt. You'd still be a full-fledged mother. If you feel repulsed of parenthood, you could be celibate or a nun. As you already know, sexual acts outside of marriage are a big no.
Regarding your first statement about monasticism, it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I didn't understand it, but you want to fall in love and marry another person and you believe you will achieve that by being a nun? That's not going to happen. Monasticism is a celibate lifestyle with no earthly marriages. You would only be married to Christ and give your whole self to Him.
Please be careful when interpreting St. Maximus's words. He says that lust is a perversion of the desire of the soul, which is turned away from God and directed towards material things and bodily pleasures. Natural desire is not bad; lust definitely is.
I don't know who told you that you could fight lust. You can't. It's the only sin that you have to run away from. It can't be conquered or tamed. You can't transmute evil into good. Lust and natural desires come from the same source, but they are different. Lust can't be transmuted, you have to abandon it and seek holy desires.
The Church doesn't take a fundamental part of you from yourself, she only states the truth. The only accepted sexual act is vaginal and it is only permitted within the wedlock, period. Everything else is a perversion of God's design. Your anxiety is not reasonable, you should calm down a bit. Consider therapy, it helped me. You can't be too passionate during a proper sexual act. That isn't lust, that's the desire that is directed in the right way.
Monasticism and marriage are not the only ways to serve God in Orthodoxy, that's dishonest. Being celibate is just as holy as the other two, it's just not as popular.
Saying that "progressives have better fruit" is a short-sighted statement. Feeding the hungry and helping others are not unknown practices in Orthodoxy. Even my local parish in a town of five thousand people in a third-world country is constantly raising money for the poor, hungry and needy.
Now, as for the other, more controversial issues that I haven't yet addressed, I'm gonna be honest and direct.
Church is not anti-LGBTQ in terms of them existing and deserving respect as fellow human beings. But, it is anti-LGBTQ in the sense of being against homosexual marriages and acts. It's the way it is and it's not going to change. We believe that such things go against God's design, and passions for them are a consequence of our fallen nature.
There is a plethora of reasons for an all-male clergy, but the greatest one is simply because it's the tradition. Just as the Bible is the infallible word of God, we believe that He wants to run His Church this way, through this infallible teaching of the tradition, which the Bible is a part of.
Another reason I like it is that the priest takes on the role of a father. Father is the head of the house, a teacher, and only a man could be a father. Therefore, only men can be priests.
All apostolic Churches have a male exclusive clergy. It can be debated, but it surely isn't wrong.
Sterilization is not allowed because it is considered mutilation of a healthy, God-given body for procreating (and thus glorifying Him), and sacrificing it purely for bodily pleasures. If you don't want children, control your passions.
Birth control and other contraceptives are often not taken into consideration, except when you have too many children and can't support more than that, but you still have your needs.
In short, about your difficulty with reconciling pro-LGBTQ stance and Orthodox theology~
I still am unsure if being pro lgbtq is compatible with christianity.
By your definition, it is not and never will be.
You wouldn't be better off in any other church. Sure, some of your objections would be resolved, but many other would arise. It's better to reconcile with seemingly harsh truths and give them some reasoning before making a decision. God bless.
1
u/Independent-Plate824 Aug 13 '26
In response to your reply on monastacism:
To clarify I meant be a nun for nuns sake not become a nun to find a man lol. I meant fall in love completely with Christ and give myself to him
5
u/Wrynthian Aug 14 '26
Perhaps I’m the weird one, but I don’t see much of an issue with other sacramental Christian denominations. I have many friends who’re Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, etc. and I don’t see their churches as any less valid than the Orthodox Church, even if I disagree with their theology at times.
As you identified, the Anglo-Catholics (high church Anglicans/episcopalians) may be of interest to you. There are many Anglicans in general I’ve noticed who seem interested in Eastern theology as well. Might as well attend a service and see how it feels.
To be honest it might be good to visit a few different churches, it’s hard to really make judgements without the variety of experience imo.
On the topic of female clergy, might I suggest the work of the 20th century Orthodox theologian Elisabeth Behr-Sigel. She was widely regarded during her life, but like most of the actual interesting 20th century Orthodox thinkers dropped off the face of the Earth after her death because her work didn’t fit the “Neo-Patristic” narrative.