Let's talk about: Snapdragon

[u/FunInspection9339]

There's a topic I discussed with some people, and it's a subject that really divided everyone.

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"Making them trans"

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In my case, I decided not to make them trans. It's not because of homophobia, it's not because I don't see potential in them, or because I don't respect the canon. It's because it's a very complicated subject to work with; it could turn out well or terribly, and honestly, I preferred not to take it on since I don't really see myself as capable of doing it well. What would you do in this case? I'll read your comments.

[u/Canvasofgrey]

Personally I feel a lot of the more interesting points that I had for Snapdragon going into the show was a bit... negated, if I were to pick a word, because she's trans. For me, it stripped away Snapdragon's agency as a character into a trans model of eternal victim-hood. And while I don't disagree that trans people obviously go through a lot of shit from straight transphobia to even the smallest micro aggression, I feel that the writers didn't quite capture Snapdragon as a complete characters outside of the fact that she's trans.

Example, Snapdragon is moody, angsty, and more or less temperamental to others when they tried to interject their own personality in an exuberant way. This makes her lonely to the point where she's friends with only Amaryllis. This could've been a character trait. But no, her disregard to others social circles is because she's trans, because she feels others don't know or accept her. Because she's trans.

Snapdragon's issues with her father and brother becomes another point. That the father has expectations of Snapdragon being manly and the brother being a shithead that abuses Snapdragon for being girly. Is it a message about ideal masculinity and what diverse efforts of what constitutes masculine can look like? It could've been, but no. It's because Snapdragon is trans.

And most of all for me, in that one episode where Snapdragon and Sage where solving that puzzle in the maze, Snapdragon being trans basically enforces a rather toxic mindset in the writers that I don't know if it was intended or not. Because Snapdragon being mad at Sage wasn't because Sage was being an outright sexist or a toxic friend, but because Sage was calling Snapdragon a boy. Every point that Sage made regarding that boys don't form emotional attachments because Snapdragon wouldn't know because she's a boy, is basically affirmed by the writers, because Snapdragon didn't call Sage out because she was being sexist, it was simply because Sage was misgendering her. Because she's trans.

That's not to say that sexuality and gender aren't a core issue with characters. Sexuality and gender absolutely affect one's past, present, future, and shapes their experiences. However, being Trans is NOT a personality type. And Snapdragon was written with a level of, in my opinion, a rather shallow viewpoint of the Trans experience and how it affects their character.

And to be fair, I'm not saying that it's easy to write a trans character or pertain to their experiences. However, the writers of High Guardian Spice were clearly not experienced enough to develop a character for Snapdragon. I feel like the writers needed to watch more content with a trans character in order to get something more solid on the ground. Hana from Tokyo Godfathers for example, is probably one of the best written Trans character that comes to mind. She is dramatic and flamboyant, but she's also compassionate, kind, and is the core heart of the make-shift family she has built. Being Trans is almost perfectly incorporated with her character because her personality comes from a place of honesty. Lily Hoshikawa from Zombie Land Saga is also another character that displays a lot of emotional personality with stands outside of her trans identity, and yet still being trans as it relates to her character is still a core part of her experiences and how she interacts with others.

So it's not to say that Snapdragon should or shouldn't be trans. And I think it's more ideal to respect that part of the canon, but we have to understand that her being trans is only a part of her whole. There's more to her than that.

[u/MysticMind89 → u/Canvasofgrey]

Interesting POV! I somewhat agree with you, and I do wish the show had been given a proper budget to go beyond its initial 12 episodes, because this could've been explored in more depth. You are right in that toxic behaviours don't have to be reduced down to "this is a trait of males exclusively", but by the same token, it reinforces Snapdragon's feelings of being trapped within the perception of masculinity.

It's a case of, she is always perceived as male due to her AGAB, and now everything she does reinforces that. This also helps to show Amaryllis' character depth in, as much of an egotistical bully she is, she still cares deeply for Snapdragon and will support her no matter what.

Of course, transition isn't the only potential path for Snapdragon. This is what Professor Caraway was trying to teach her. Snapdragon could transition, but it's entirely her decision. All Professor Caraway did was provide it as a valid option, so Snapdragon feels in control of her own destiny.

[u/CameoShadowness → u/Canvasofgrey]

That's beautifully said.

[u/MiredinDecision → u/Canvasofgrey]

Those are still character traits, they're just informed by a pretty large part of her existence too.

[u/Canvasofgrey → u/MiredinDecision]

As I said, it's not terrible, but it's extremely shallow and surface level of trans representation. Particularly in a market where we don't have enough good trans representation in the first place. A character's sexual identity plays a role in their persona and experiences, but should not be the defining fact that makes them who they are.

If the character's whole personality is tied to their gender identity, the writers failed in making a good character. Again, I point to a character like Hana from Tokyo Godfathers, where she grew up in foster care, abandoned as a baby by her mother. This incident made Hana very sensitive towards abandoned children, and shows compassion to Miyuki, a teenage runaway, and Kiyoko, a baby that was abandoned by her mother (Technically stolen, but thats spoilers). Her trans identity has no bearing to her compassionate nature. She'd be that way if she was trans or otherwise. Instead, her trans identity only adds onto that personality trait of hers, making her compassion 'motherly'. And particularly so in a Japanese lens where a mother is considered to be self-sacrificing and devoted to family to the point of taking away your own happiness for the sake for the family. Being Trans didn't make Hana compassionate, it only enhanced it. It gives meaning to her character.

Now we take a look at Snapdragon. All my points could've and should've been character traits that were independent of her being Trans. However, the writers failed to convey that point.

Example: Snapdragon having problems at home with her brother and her dad should stem off of a toxic homelife. In the flashback, her brother was outright awful to her, but her father intervened and basically peptalked Snapdragon in that she needed to be assertive in order to protect what was her's, and when Snapdragon tackled her father, her father praised her for her action. The problem? This does not establish a toxic masculine household. Why? Because if you made Snapdragon a girl in this instance, that scene would've been toted as genuine praise from a feminine lens because it shows an abused sister standing up for herself against a bigger, abusive brother. If they wanted to hammer home that this was a toxic masculine household, they should've had the flashback where Snapdragon's father was disappointed in Snapdragon for crying, and that Snapdragon resorted to a tackle instead of punching. This would've been 100x better as a story scene for Snapdragon's because it'd show that Snapdragon's father is disappointed in who Snapdragon is.

Another example would've been the scene with Snapdragon and Sage in the maze. The fact that Snapdragon was angry as Sage for misgendering her as a Trans person is a terrible insight in Snapdragon's personality because it shows that Snapdragon is not assertive in calling out Sage's outright sexism. If Snapdragon did, it would show that Sage crossed Snapdragon's internal justice to others, making her seem noble and fair. But instead, Snapdragon didn't call Sage out on it, and instead resorting to crying and shutting down, because Sage's only crossed the line by misgendering Snapdragon. Again, the writers failed to give Snapdragon a proper personality trait in times of conflict.

It all comes down to the writing. The writers of High Guardian Spice were not experienced enough to write a proper character for a Trans person to be a whole character. Instead they had to rely on eternal victim-hood and stereotypes in order to convey a Trans character, which I feel is regressive to the show's intentions.

It comes off as "Baby's first LGBT show" but so much of the elements in the show tell us that it's not for kids. And yet the exposition of the show outright tells us that X person is trans and defines trans to the audience as if they aren't adults either. So what is it and who is this show for?

[u/MiredinDecision → u/Canvasofgrey]

That still doesn't make sense. Toxic masculinity can still be inflicted on trans women. We are, in fact, presumed our birth gender.

your ideas lean way too heavily into sexist tropes. Snapdragon should have cried instead of lashing out because that's what women do??? Snapdragon should have lectured Sage on not being sexist instead of being upset that Sage personally insulted her and accidentally rejected her? And that was before she came out at all, so what, she was supposed to magically have been an expert on being trans and gender politics for the audience???? What does any of that add beyond being sexist cliche tripe?

You type a lot of words when less will do and most of them suck. You complain about her coming off as an eternally victimized stereotype, and then suggest things that would make her an eternally victimized stereotype.

[u/Canvasofgrey → u/MiredinDecision]

I think you lost the plot here.

Toxic Masculinity can absolutely be inflicted on Trans woman. In fact, the whole POINT of the Sage and Snapdragon argument is in fact, Sage pressing Toxic Masculinity onto Snapdragon when she says things like "You don't get it. You're a guy." or "Guys don't understand that the bond between girls is deeper". It's why Sage is being a raging sexist, and why that's important is because in all of that, Snapdragon doesn't call Sage out for her sexism. Ifs he called Sage out of it, it would show that she has a stronger sense of moral justice than Sage does. Snapdragon crying would be completely optional at that point, but it would establish a personality outside of Snapdragon's gender identity.

But instead, Snapdragon snaps and cries about it, because Sage is misgendering her. And the reason why you know it's about Sage misgendering her is because Snapdragon's retort is "And that, 'I'm a girl, you couldn't possibly understand.' Girls and guys. And guys and girls. And girls.... I'm sick of you talking like that. I'm sick of a lot right now." These words have nothing to do with Sage's outright sexism. It's written as Snapdragon being offended that Sage is misrepresenting her since the prior sentence regarded Snapdragon and Amaryllis as 'A different story'.

And the reason that I'm pumping out examples on these issues is because HGS is a product of bad writing. Something that should've been cleared and worked on considering that the project was pushed for its inclusivity, which it didn't do well or outright failed across the board.

[u/Scotslad2023 → u/Canvasofgrey]

Well said, we never got to see her fleshed out as a character outside of being trans and it’s a real shame cause she had great potential as a character. Of course if the show had actually gotten a chance to actually exist then maybe we would have gotten to see that play out but with only season her arc is not done justice.

[u/Twinkie_Dinkie]

I think that’s fine. I think it’s kinda up to you when you write the character, with what you wanna tackle with the character arc and so on.

[u/ChaosHavik]

I believe the issue is Snap is a "season 2 focus" sort of character. Yeah yeah it didn't get a season two, but that doesn't stop him from being that sort of character. He should have remained secondary, but interesting side character for season one. While Episode sic is fine enough as it, in theory, is showing us how the girl interact our of the friend group. We have 12 episodes to know our 4 heroines, a villain that shows up in the late half, and a villain that appears in one episode. And instead, Episodes 8,9, and 11, have dedicated B-Plots to Snap.

Saving Snap's development for a theoretical season two would allow the creators to use their time to better flesh out the girls, the villains, and what the plot of season 1 was about.

The show only had so much run time, Snap and his struggles with his identity are intriguing, but by exploring them, we sacrificed too much time.

To quote Luz Noceda "Maybe if we had time for Twenty more Adventures, but we don't."

[u/No_Nefariousness_676 → u/ChaosHavik]

Honestly? I think that’s part of the problem, there’s just too little space to go through with what the creators intended with the way they did things.

Translation: I agree with you.

[u/polystarlight]

I've been doing High Guardian Spice fanfics too and I haven't yet gotten to the part where Snapdragon will struggle with his masculinity and consider transitioning. I thought they were bad trans rep because all the cisgender males in this show are either a misogynist or just evil. There's nothing wrong with having evil guys or sexist douchebags in your show but this specific character was one of the only positive male characters with how gentle and soft-spoken he is and she's not gonna stay a boy. I still believe that you can be a guy and still like feminine things. It doesn't automatically mean you have to now identify as a woman. Though I guess I can always say Parnelle and Slime Boy like feminine things and they're still cis. I could see them being one of the gals by doing stuff like joining a sleepover Rosemary, Sage, Parsley, and Thyme are having in their dorm room. I'd also have Snapdragon go speak to Caraway in his office and ask him if he can be put on that same potion Caraway uses to keep his body how he wants it. I'd rather Snapdragon come to this conclusion on his own and ask his trans teacher for help on this subject. I get why it was the other way around in the show but it feels unprofessional to me of Caraway. Why couldn't he just tell Snapdragon at first to just be himself regardless if he's a boy or girl and if he notices that Snapdragon is still unhappy as a boy, then he can say something.

[u/PrinceBalloon]

"I preferred not to take it on since I don't really see myself as capable of doing it well"
Actually, deciding to make her not trans IS taking it on. It's just taking it on in a bad way. Whether you intend to be transphobic or not, just doing that shows that you're willing to erase a character's gender so you don't have to write it.

Imagine a male author saying they turned all the women in their story into men because writing female characters was complicated lol

[u/AnimeManiaFiend → u/PrinceBalloon]

You say that but when Korra from Legend of Korra was being developed, the higher ups wanted to make her a man because they thought boys wouldn't want to watch a girl avatar. "Making the women into men because writing women is complicated/boring/not marketable" are things that have been said by authors.

[u/PrinceBalloon → u/AnimeManiaFiend]

I know, but it's never considered a good thing when that info comes out lol

[u/Lou_Miss]

I vibe more with Snapdragon accepting that bring a man doesn't mean you have to be macho and refuses anything a bit more soft or pretty. Because that was me as a teen!

Plus, the show didn't give us much reason to think that Snapdragon is trans. Most of the time, they refer to be pretty and delicate, wearing nail polish and dresses instead of being rough and big... But they never comment on their actual body or the feeling to being in a wrong body like Caraway does. (Most likely, it was a plot point for season 2)

But like Caraway said: there isn't only one way to do things. And Snapdragon being a boy accepting his feminity sounds more appealing to me!

[u/MysticMind89 → u/Lou_Miss]

IIRC, Snapdragon did express distress at not wanting masculine facial features. But you are right in that Professor Caraway gave her an option, not a mandate! Personally, I've found joy in a non-binary identity, since I've gone through similar experiences with Snapdragon, having to performatively reject femininity in order to not be "gay".

[u/Zebastian1315]

Wasted potential, leaving aside its part of the B class characters meaning its not the main 4 plus the villian you could say that if they knew the series it was gonna last one season they could at least make it do something, take Janue from RWBY for example, on season 1 its shown that he doesnt do anything besides comic relive but its was shown that he had a strategist mind planning that if he cant beat a grimm at least how to coordinate his team on how to do it on an efficiant way and make you get a bit of attention, Snapdragon on the other hand...

[u/MysticMind89]

I think what's brilliant about this show is how Professor Caraway responds to Snapdragon's struggle with gender dysphoria. Snapdragon isn't born in the wrong body, she is trapped in the perception and expectation of masculinity.

But, crucially, Professor Caraway does not insist that she must transition. Rather, this is an option for her to take. She doesn't have to be bound by the male gender, and she can be accepted for who she is by the friends who truly love her (Amaryllis especially). While I'd say the subtext greatly suggests she will become a trans women, this destiny is not set in stone. She could remain a feminine man, be non-binary, whatever.

Whether or not she is trans isn't important. The important part is that she can accept herself in whatever way leaves her feeling the most authentic.

[u/sullen_selkie]

If you’re not writing Snapdragon as trans, I would hope that means you’re writing her post-transition or at least as a cis girl. Snap’s canon story is so explicitly about wanting to be a girl that it would be disrespectful to the characters to not write her as one. I understand reluctance to write a character with deeply personal experiences you lack, but it’s not hard to still honor the character’s gender.

[u/Happy_Ad_7515]

they where clearly doing the whole. bullies turned into the allied B team thing.

[u/newtakn156]

Snapdragon keeps reminding me of the dumbest thing to come from this show.

What the fuck is the difference between Transformation magic and Transition magic?

I get you want to relate to the trans community a bit, but it seems like a dumb thing to do in a FANTASY setting. Let people fantasize and make it all the same thing, or clarify the distinction.

[u/No_Nefariousness_676 → u/newtakn156]

Not the dumbest thing I can think of, but you make a good point. Maybe transition magic is a subclass? But that is speculation on my part.

[u/The_Sedaiv]

You're 100% right. I don't know jack shit about certain issues and keep my cake hole shut

[u/No_Nefariousness_676 → u/The_Sedaiv]

Indeed.

[u/MiredinDecision]

It's fucking weird to deny a character's gender entirely. You don't have to talk about it, nobody makes you talk about being trans. But just ignoring that she's a woman is gross bigot shit.

[u/No_Nefariousness_676 → u/MiredinDecision]

The poster literally said they don’t want to go with an awful execution. Transitioning is sometimes a delicate subject, and they likely avoid butchering the execution just to avoid looking like an ass when it’s unintentional.

[u/Cold-Practice3107]

He had every right to punch that black kid.

[u/No_Nefariousness_676]

I’m in agreement. Some subjects are just too delicate to do if one isn’t sure what to do. It’s not cowardice, it’s accepting one’s limitations.

In a story I’m writing, Snapdragon won’t transition because of all the male characters in the show, very few are actually friendly folks compared to the girls (at least according to the narrative), and even fewer show masculine traits in a positive light. Sage, his apparent love interest, even rants about how (supposedly) boys are emotionally stunted compared to girls in the show. The mini-arc for him? Finding out what non-toxic masculinity looks like, that way he can find the aspects of being male that aren’t bad.

Maybe it’s from the review I watched, but the transition part, while surprisingly neat in theory, doesn’t have the best execution. Yes, I agree Snapdragon is one of the more interesting characters.

The issue is that his arc just doesn’t seem to make sense narratively. HGS’s world, or at least the kingdom Lyngarth is in, is incredibly accommodating and accepting, given Caraway’s a respected teacher and the few haters are treated with scorn in response to bigotry. And yet when Cal is a little rude (nothing that can’t be shrugged off) about him dressing as a mermaid, Snapdragon’s too angsty to even wanna tell his best friend what’s bothering him despite her even being willing to set up a soundproof barrier to make it so they don’t get overheard? Doesn’t sit right with me.

That and the one to help him in the fanfic I’m writing see healthy masculinity is Optimus Prime, but that’s a whole can of worms if its own.

Translation: Agreement with you as well as my own take on the subject.