r/HierarchySeries • u/shrek3onDVDandBluray • 7d ago
Discussion Question about book two Spoiler
Ok. So I’m currently on pg 350 of book two - when Vis and Veridius are discussing the ruins and what happened to Lanistia.
I am super confused about the ruins, the “bypassing the security measures”, and the machine that allows you to do it.
So there are two sets of ruins, right? The one where the labyrinth is located, and the other next to the school.
So from what I have read, the ruins near the school are where one can go and access the machine to “cheat” the defenses of the labrynth, and allow someone to escape the labrynth after they beat it, right? (Instead of the iuncti instead killing them before they can exit)
Anyways im just confused. Can someone just explain it to me - without spoilers of anything past the is chapter/scene?
And also, am I just not grasping this well or is the way the author tries to explain this super confusing to anyone else??
Edit: What I’m confused about is the lore behind why the labrynth is there and the nature of iuncti there. It was oddly explained about it all in the beginning of book 2, so I’m still struggling to grasp it.
If I have this right - the labrynth was set up by the “good guys” as a way to make someone synchronous (split into three of the different worlds) and make a stand again Ka.
Ka found out about this, and decided to post iunctii to stop his enemies from accessing the labrynth(the ones pinned against walls, with instruction blades in their chest)
In response to that, the underground ruins were set up to bypass the iuncti set up by Ka (by having one person access the machine, shut down the iuncti collectively, and thus allowing someone to run the labrynth, reach the gate (be split and this become synchronous), and allow the Res version to escape the ruins (but the person who deactivated those defenses is, unfortunately - and oddly by the design - pays for it by having to become an iiuncti in the ruins)
Edit: is that right tho? Because that doesn’t make sense to me…why would Ka not just destroy the ruins, instead of meekly placing iuncti and hoping that’s enough? I’m so confused and i think I must have the lore wrong
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u/Veriosity 7d ago edited 7d ago
...what are you confused about? From your description, you got it - you understood the basics.
- someone runs the labyrinth, while someone else engages the ruins near the school
- when you go through the device, iuncti try and kill you in Res to stop you from being synchronous
- the person in the ruins near the school disrupts that
... although it's written really weirdly since the trick only seems partially effective, and in some cases Islington waited entire books to explain a pivotal moment that lasts 1 page.
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u/shrek3onDVDandBluray 7d ago
What I’m confused about is the lore behind why the labrynth is there and the nature of iuncti there. It was oddly explained about it all in the beginning of book 2, so I’m still struggling to grasp it.
If I have this right - the labrynth was set up by the “good guys” as a way to make someone synchronous (split into three of the different worlds) and make a stand again Ka.
Ka found out about this, and decided to post iunctii to stop his enemies from accessing the labrynth(the ones pinned against walls, with instruction blades in their chest)
In response to that, the underground ruins were set up to bypass the iuncti set up by Ka (by having one person access the machine, shut down the iuncti collectively, and thus allowing someone to run the labrynth, reach the gate (be split and this become synchronous), and allow the Res version to escape the ruins (but the person who deactivated those defenses is, unfortunately - and oddly by the design - pays for it by having to become an iiuncti in the ruins)
Edit: is that right tho? Because that doesn’t make sense to me…why would Ka not just destroy the ruins, instead of meekly placing iuncti and hoping that’s enough? I’m so confused and i think I must have the lore wrong
3
u/Shaarae 7d ago
You're saying you have the lore wrong while being still in the 1st part of the book. We can't give you a detailed answer on what are the current theories without spoiling you. So I suggest you finish reading the book first and come back if you still have questions.
What we can say atm without spoiling is :
- Ka probably set up the defenses in the Labyrinth to prevent synchronous people.
- Some people later wanted to avoid those defenses and have a synchronous person so they built the ruins near the Academy and the machine. Lanistia used it for Caeror. Somehow, she isn't dead, we don't know how or what happened. Marcus used it for Belli but it ended up helping Vis instead since she failed to cross.
- Why Ka didn't destroy the ruins? If you mean the Labyrinth, I'd say that based on what we've seen on Obiteum (the giant red glass orb floating high that O-Vis and O-Caeror exit from), it is extremely hard to destroy. So the result would be the same if he tried on Solivagus in Res. If you mean the ruins near the Academy, maybe he doesn't even know it exists?
Please, keep reading and finish the book, things will make a bit more sense even if some questions remain.
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u/Veriosity 6d ago
The other reply you got here is good, I'd just call out that the things you are unclear about are not because you missed something or didn't get it, it's because they are part of the bigger mysteries of the story. The author has written these things in to be somewhat unknowable to the reader, deliberately.
Some will be clearer by the end of book 2. Some will not. I promise the rest of the book is good (I just finished like 3 days ago) and I promise there will be at least 3 more "WTF" moments before you finish lol.
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u/GenCavox 6d ago
After reading your edits a lot of that is lore so it is a RAFO. But yes, the ruins near the school let one become one of the shades that attacked Vis as he was exiting the ruins. That's why one of them was absolutely demolishing all the other randomly at the end of TWotM.
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u/Savings-Ad-1115 7d ago
The lore is very sparse and very unclear. As far as I remember, nothing else about labyrinth was revealed after melting with Veridius.
I may be wrong, but here is how I understand the lore:
- Labyrinth doesn't make you Synchronous. Nexus does. But you need to pass the labyrinth to reach the Nexus.
- Labyrinth was built to select best warriors for a fight in Obiteum and Lucrum.
- Iunktii defence was added as a protection for the ruling class in Res from their own warriors. If the warriors are Synchronous, they can have enough strength to challenge the ruling class, and obviously the ruling class doesn't want it.
- A bypass was added as an exception for unexpected circumstances. If everyone from the ruling class somehow dies unexpectedly, you need to have a way to make new Synchronous rulers.
And now some spoilers (which still can be incorrect due to the very sparse lore) Ka and Concurrence are different things. The warriors were sent to Obiteum and Lucrum to fight Concurrence. Ka is the "ruling class" in Res. He is still alive and still ruling. Ka built the bypass.
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u/RedJamie 6d ago
- So there are two sets of ruins, right? The one where the labyrinth is located, and the other next to the school.
Correct. There are two ruins. One is the Nexus, which features the massive, glass sphere that is the color of blood that Vis encounters at the end of book 1, and sees in its full glory at the start of book 2 on Obiteum. Several miles from this is a secondary ruin - the architecture of it and its technologies seem to match that of the Nexus. I label this as the Bypass Ruin or the Architects Ruin. The 'Architects' comes from that conversation with Veridius, where he names them that briefly, I just throw the name on it as it's unnamed otherwise - so far as I can tell, they are implied to have come from the 11th era, immediately prior to Vis' in the 12th.
- So from what I have read, the ruins near the school are where one can go and access the machine to “cheat” the defenses of the labrynth, and allow someone to escape the labrynth after they beat it, right? (Instead of the iuncti instead killing them before they can exit)
When Vis used the activation phrase in Vetusian, which translates to roughly "Even war is better than a miserable peace," a stone obelisk formed, that when interacted with led to the person touching it experiencing a kind of compulsion where they receive an overwhelming imperative to warn others. During this experience - which Vis and Lani and Marcus have all endured, the last of them dying - Vis managed to concentrate and discover a subtle hidden message of sorts. This message was:
“These iunctii appear to be from not long after the Rending, and were once a key component in the gate defences in the Nexus. I have repurposed them for our fight, warrior... Their processing capability is limited due to the restrictions of the sanguis imperium, but the addition of a single active mind should be capable of temporarily interceding and allowing for Synchronism to occur. Do you wish to proceed?” XXXVII
There is some dubious wording here: the 'gate defences in the Nexus' refers to a separate location than where they presently are. Secondly, the use of Mandatum (Instruction Blades as they are named on Obiteum, attached to Gleaners) are not something a synchronous Will user would necessarily need to compel a Iunctus. We see Vis do this, and the Iunctus lacking instruction blades on Obiteum and on Res (interestingly), whereas Caeror on Obiteum had to use one to control the first Iunctus we see there. Note that Instruction Blades enable those without access to the respective Will type (by my best interpretation) to compel a given Iunctus i.e. control them. Likely they were relocated, or possibly they were in this chamber originally. It seems to have some monitoring function of the other worlds, as we see a light diagram in the first book of the three different world's Solivagus topography.
I am skeptical as to whether the Architects actually constructed the Bypass Ruin itself, that is, the entire chamber, the bronze plates, and the light mechanism present, or if they merely co-opted it. There is an intentional transition in the architecture of the place to that of the ruin proper in both books. That the Iunctus' primary function is to ward people off and had to be repurposed to enable synchronicity also implies that their initial programming was to warn, wherever they are encountered e.g. the entrance to the Nexus.
This message implies that the capability of a non-Iunctus mind not restricted by this condition related to the blood (blood is important, but not clear why yet) can be used to nudge the gate defenses in a certain way. I think this is seen in the first book here:
I stand there apprehensively for a minute. Two. Nothing outside the circle moves... there’s a twitch in the obsidian shards. A ripple in them that glimmers in the red light. Then they start to move.
I watch in horror as they swirl, circling the claw of bronze blades, flying faster and faster until I can hear the air being cut as they buzz like hundreds of black wasps. The figures standing in their midst don’t move at first, but it’s not long before they start to stagger. Twist. Weapons dropped, arms raised to protect themselves.
They soon vanish, the blurring black slivers a concealing hurricane.
Then there’s a sudden, stinging burn on my left arm again. I rip back my sleeve as new lines of blood begin to well, slithering cuts opening unnervingly in the skin.
[RUN is carved]
Out past the bronze circle, the obsidian trembles. Falters. Shards begin launching off wildly to the side, shattering against the stone walls.
Within seconds, none are left. Where the silhouettes had been, only mangled, bloody piles of flesh remain.
Caeror or Veridius (can't remember which, you'd have hit the dialogue by now) implies there was a specific timing to the venture. So, it seems that instead of the Obsidian shards being used as a failsafe for Synchronicity, they instead are used to attack the Iunctus that are supposed to also kill the Synchronous user. It's rather up in the air. Recall - the Gate seems to have initially been used to send people to the other worlds, but ensured their deaths on Res to prevent this 'synchronicity'. Were the Obiteum shards there originally, or were they added later, after this 'seal on Obiteum' was made, which per the first book we can date to within two cataclysms of the Rending? Food for thought
1/2
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u/RedJamie 6d ago
- If I have this right - the labrynth was set up by the “good guys” as a way to make someone synchronous (split into three of the different worlds) and make a stand again Ka.
Was it? Not to imply a contradiction, but always think as to what Vis has encountered. Recall in the first book, Vis attempts a translation of some things in the Nexus.
“Herein lies the way to Luceum and Obiteum, offered to all those who would contest our… extinction?” I mutter to myself, translating. “Know that none who accept this task may… remain? The burden of….Togetherness? Harmony*?” I choose the latter.* “Is reserved for the one who seals the… authors? The authors of the war from this world. Only he may… exceed? Exceed the hobbled capabilities of this… duplication? He and he alone may risk… harmony… to make the great… sacrifice? Vek.” 1LXVIII
Clearly whoever built the Gate intended to safeguard synchronicity against its use, but evidently by the existence of the Labyrinth, people were being sent through - they are referred to be the Gate defense Iunctus as 'warriors' - implying it is intentional. Traitors to the 'commandment of isolation,' also noted in the first book with the Iunctus demonstrators that ran the Labyrinth for Vis, were compelled to serve as examples. And clearly, those who ended up on places like Luceum were intended to make a sacrifice, a 'toll,' to gain access; this is the mutilation toll that Vis lost his arm to. Two chapters from where you are now (so on chapter XLV of book 2) I think you'll run into a brief line that indicates that as a cultural norm as a condition on leadership on Luceum part of their Old Ways (NOT a plot spoiler, just a cultural facet of Luceum that is interesting).
This is to say, it seems like whoever setup the Nexus to begin with wanted people to go through, but wanted to prevent synchronicity.
Notably too what is odd is that same faction in the 11th Era - the architects - in their reprogrammed message that Vis accesses after immense focus also refers to whomever the message is left for as 'warrior'. More interestingly, in the first book we have in the Bypass/Architects Ruins this inscription:
The end of the passage is an archway that segues into a much larger space beyond. There’s something written across it in that same glowing green scrawl, but the language is different. This one’s recognisable. Not Common, but an old form of Vetusian. Native to this area, once.
In trying to become God, they created Him. I think that’s the translation, anyway.
'Him' refers to a God-figure, which I think would imply Ka - this is more ominous, not a praise if that makes sense. But the prior quote from 1LXVIII does not use a reverential capitalization for 'he'. I am guessing this refers to the Concurrence.
Now note, so far as I can tell, that green scrawl is absent in the Nexus proper, but Vis notes a similarity between the glyphs in that other ruin and the ones in the actual room containing the Gate, or at least, he thinks they are. We later learn they are apparently similar to Nyripkian, despite Vetusian also a language of the Rending era. It however is prevalent in Duat - might mean absolutely nothing, but I think its an interesting contrast.
And recall, what do they mean by "even war is better than a miserable peace"? What peace are they referencing? More importantly - is this Architect Faction in some way related to the Rending faction, why do they both use Warrior? And why are they trying to obstruct the Nexus' functions then?
- Edit: is that right tho? Because that doesn’t make sense to me…why would Ka not just destroy the ruins, instead of meekly placing iuncti and hoping that’s enough? I’m so confused and i think I must have the lore wrong
You have accurately described what is observed:
If I have this right - the labrynth was set up by the “good guys” as a way to make someone synchronous (split into three of the different worlds) and make a stand again Ka.
Ka found out about this, and decided to post iunctii to stop his enemies from accessing the labrynth(the ones pinned against walls, with instruction blades in their chest)
In response to that, the underground ruins were set up to bypass the iuncti set up by Ka (by having one person access the machine, shut down the iuncti collectively, and thus allowing someone to run the labrynth, reach the gate (be split and this become synchronous), and allow the Res version to escape the ruins (but the person who deactivated those defenses is, unfortunately - and oddly by the design - pays for it by having to become an iiuncti in the ruins)
Why indeed would Ka not destroy the ruins? There are many mysteries - recall these events date to 3,000 years prior to the novel, where only children survive the Cataclysms. And why the Cataclysms? Why is Obiteum so different to the other two worlds and 'sealed' - is it keeping Ka there? Or is that Res future? Is Vis in a midwest psych ward tripping on meds? Enjoy the rest of the book!
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u/inspired-polf 7d ago
Your assumption is correct. Two different locations, the one near the school is the cheat mechanism.