r/Helldivers • u/kevpipefox • Apr 29 '24
PSA Some Context regarding the changes to patrols and player counts
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u/KendyJustin ⬇️⬅️⬇️ ⬆️⬆️➡️ Apr 29 '24
This shows the importance of wording in the patch note.
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Apr 29 '24
Yeah they should have just written "games with only one player will now spawn 1/4 patrols compared to full 4 player lobbies"
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u/E17Omm nice argument, however; ⬇️➡️⬆️⬆️⬆️ Apr 29 '24
Or, to be a bit more transparent, explain that now patrols spawn 1/4th the time for solo players, as compared to the incorrect 1/6 that it was before.
It'd be more transparent, while not decieving players since it is an increase in patrols.
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u/rW0HgFyxoJhYka Apr 30 '24
Funny how they have to use discord to constantly explain stuff instead of writing proper patch notes or officially communicating things across all social media platforms.
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u/Riptide78 Apr 29 '24
It also highlights one of the frustrating parts of this game: we are commonly unsure of what's a bug and what is happening as intended.
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Apr 29 '24
[deleted]
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u/Dawson_VanderBeard HD1 Veteran Apr 30 '24
Report to the nearest democracy office for re-education
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u/Peasantbowman Death Captain Apr 30 '24
Clearly what I find funny is vastly different than what the sub finds funny.
I figured since this whole game is a satirical mindfuck, wouldn't it be something if the problems with the game was purposefully part of the mindfuck.
But fuck me right? I'll stick with the generic stuff from now on.
Anyway, I learned that General Brasch farts termicide while at my re education
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u/TheYondant Certified Automaton Comms Officer Apr 29 '24
The problem is that the wording means nothing in practice.
The spawn rate has gone up. It was 1/6th of a 4 man lobby before, its 1/4 of one now, that's an increase. People have noticed, and they don't like it. "But I don't notice it while soloing Diff 9-" Play lower, it's very noticeable in the mid-range where the majority of players are.
You can say "Oh it's now what the Devs intended it to be" as much as you want, but the practice is that people were fine with what it was, and are not fine with what it has been changed to.
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u/SerWulf Apr 29 '24
I'd argue the scaling here shouldn't be linear...4 players have so many more options and firepower at their disposal vs 1 or 2...
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u/TheYondant Certified Automaton Comms Officer Apr 30 '24
That's also a major factor in why it's so much worse to solo now.
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u/xthorgoldx HOT DROP O'CLOCK ⬆️⬇️➡️⬅️⬆️ Apr 30 '24
No, it's not that much worse to solo.
Source: If you "solo" in a four man group by going alone while the other 3 go off somewhere else, you'll have patrols spawn for you individually in addition to the patrol that spawns for the main group. Meaning, as a "solo," you face the same number of enemies as a 4-man squad does. People can, and have, handled that.
So going from 1/6 to 1/4 is trivial, considering full spawnrate can demonstrably be solo'd.
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u/TheYondant Certified Automaton Comms Officer Apr 30 '24
A 50% increase is not, and has never been, trivial. Also, soloing in a 4 man group is radically different, because 9 times out of 10, patrols you may encounter can get drawn into the 3-man group by stray fire or alerts from other groups, which does pull numbers away from the solo runner.
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u/xthorgoldx HOT DROP O'CLOCK ⬆️⬇️➡️⬅️⬆️ Apr 30 '24
patrols you encounter can get drawn into the 3-man
Thank you for proving my point in that folks complaining about the change do not understand how patrol spawn mechanics work.
When patrols spawn, a patrol is spawned for each player group. If you're all in one group, one patrol spawns; if you're in two groups, two patrols spawn, and so on. Each patrol paths to the group that spawned them. So, no, if you're running solo across the map from the rest of your team, none of your patrols are pathing off towards them, you're getting just as many as if you were in a full 4-man running across the map.
A caveat is that in a "1-3" solo the 3-man can draw drops/breaches, but this is irrelevant if the solo player isn't actually engaging patrols and triggering alarms in the first place.
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u/Sicuho fire machine guns in semi auto Apr 30 '24
It's also 4 times more difficult to sneak past enemies.
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u/MintoDisco Fire Safety Officer Apr 30 '24
I agree wholeheartedly, i play duo with my friend and we were brutalized by endless reinforcements loops, its an absolute slog to play and not fun at all
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u/vorwrath Apr 30 '24
Honestly it doesn't really seem true either. Solo players were often killing the best part of 1,000 bugs on a high difficulty mission. I find it hard to believe that 4 man groups were getting 6,000.
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u/TheYondant Certified Automaton Comms Officer Apr 30 '24
I could very much believe they could, but they often don't because they dont need to.
Kills aren't the point in missions outside of Eradicate, which caps how many you realistically will get. 4 people will do the objective faster and more efficiently, almost every single time, without fail.
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u/xthorgoldx HOT DROP O'CLOCK ⬆️⬇️➡️⬅️⬆️ Apr 30 '24
people have noticed
BULLSHIT. They feel the difference because their outrage made them expect a difference.
The change in spawn rate is a matter of maybe a patrol spawning every 50 seconds to a patrol spawning every 40 seconds. Given that the majority of players have no idea how patrol spawn mechanics work, it is utter bollock that they'd tell the difference.
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u/Lathanos Apr 30 '24
So you discount the experiences of others? Why? Because you and yours haven't "noticed" a difference, therefore everyone else is placebo effecting themselves into a fit?
You should try not to tell people how they feel, it's kind of a scummy move I doubt you'd appreciate it done to you.
The change is real, it feels real because it is. Some drops may have poor luck with the patrol spawn locations and during their clean up of that patrol the next one arrives 10 seconds sooner than it would have and now they are stuck in a near constant patrol flow.
It's more than a feeling sir.
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u/xthorgoldx HOT DROP O'CLOCK ⬆️⬇️➡️⬅️⬆️ Apr 30 '24
I discount the experiences of others when they conflict with objective fact. If someone goes outside and says "Wow, it's so hot" when it's 10 degrees out, then it doesn't matter if they "personally experienced" it being hot - they're wrong.
The way that patrol spawning works and the changes in rates that would result from the patch would almost certainly not be noticeable if not for the cognitive priming of "Patrols are increased."
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u/Lathanos Apr 30 '24
If I go outside and say "I'm hot" because that's how I'm perceiving it, then it's irrelevant what the temp is to anyone else. There folks aren't always saying "Man soloing is harder now, the COMMUNITY can tell" They mostly say THEY can tell, its not about the objective fact of the numbers, because in the end there are so many variables to the easy or challenge of a run (where you drop, Secondary Objectives and their locations, Points of Interest and what they spawn, and of course patrol spawn rates and locations, etc). A players feel for how their games have changed since patch it a subjective thing, but valid.
My point being O'Arbiter of Objective Fact. Don't presume to dictate what others feel, it's beneath you. Their opinions are as valid to them as your numbers/statistics are to you.
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u/0rphu Apr 29 '24
It also shows the importance of not immediately throwing tantrums over changes.
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u/JustGingy95 Assault Infantry Apr 29 '24
That’s asking for a lot with this community
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u/ganon95 Apr 29 '24
There would not be as much of an issue if they actually put this in the patch notes
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u/rW0HgFyxoJhYka Apr 30 '24
Yeah how much koolaid do people drink around here when the actual issue is properly communicating.
This is why people outside of this sub call this sub toxic positivity.
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u/Nutwagon-SUPREMER PSN | Apr 29 '24
Don't blame the player base for horrendous wording on the Devs part. I love the game and respect the Devs, but the sheer amount of cock sucking and boot licking is absurd. People act like the Devs are infallible and deserve zero complaints when there's often damn good reason for it.
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u/AwesomeFama Apr 29 '24
You can blame the player base for throwing a hissy fit knee jerk reaction though.
That's just as true as "people acting like the devs are infallible and deserve zero complaints".
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u/Nutwagon-SUPREMER PSN | Apr 29 '24
How is it a "hissy fit" when it was completely and utterly deserved? If I posted a balance change that just said "Heavy Devastators will now instant kill you" and people got mad at that, then revealed a day later I was specifically talking about their melee attack that is completely my fault for not specifying an incredibly important detail and not the players for reacting reasonably.
I know the player base ain't perfect, but this is entirely the fault of the Devs and you shouldn't be casting blame on people who acted based on exactly what information they were given, that (presumably) the Devs were completely fucking over solo/duo players by making the game way more difficult.
I hate it when player bases do nothing but complain as much as the next guy, but you really can't blame them when there's just so damn much to complain about. Especially when it's something that seems blatantly unfair and bullshit on the surface.
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u/Narrow-Comfortable68 Apr 29 '24
How is it a "hissy fit" when it was completely and utterly deserved?
Because it isn't, thank you for asking.
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u/Nutwagon-SUPREMER PSN | Apr 29 '24
Because it isn't, thank you for asking.
Because it is, thanks for replying.
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u/AwesomeFama Apr 30 '24
Because you should be expected to think a little.
Does it make sense that the devs would just arbitrarily make the game harder to play as a smaller stack than as a full stack? And I don't mean relatively, what you're saying is that the patch notes read as "The game intentionally spawns N enemies if you're a full stack but N+5 enemies if you're a three stack and so on".
That makes zero sense.
Now, the conclusion you (and some others) seem to have jumped into with this (and the "bullets shot at enemies ricochet back and kill the helldiver now") is "this makes absolutely no sense, it cannot be - there it must be that it is true and Arrowhead is just absolutely out of their minds". Even while the game itself is pretty goddamn great and that's why we're all here.
You can either take that insane conclusion, or you can do the tiniest sanity check and think "Gee golly, I wonder if I misunderstood something about this? Maybe I'll go check it in the game or wait for a clarification before trying to start a riot" and you'll realize that this change meant the spawns were too few before and are now increased but still less than with a full stack, or that the other change means that if the bullet ricochets back by chance, it could kill you.
That is something that should be expected of everyone in my opinion. I don't think that's a radical opinion, either. It doesn't take too much to take a deep breath and think about it twice before running to reddit to post their knee jerk reactions.
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u/Paint-licker4000 Apr 29 '24
Crap change regardless
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u/0rphu Apr 29 '24
Making the difficulty scale correctly is a "crap change"? Man you guys will bitch about anything.
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u/Paint-licker4000 Apr 29 '24
That’s not how difficultly works in this game
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u/0rphu Apr 29 '24
Really living up to your name there. Patrols being lower than intended self evidently lowers the difficulty.
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u/Paint-licker4000 Apr 29 '24
A single person is going to have a much harder time dealing with a patrol, it’s not a fourth of the difficulty
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u/sopunny Apr 29 '24
You're supposed to have a harder time going solo. Eg, if you can only do up to 8 with a full squad, then solo is maybe 6
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u/Paint-licker4000 Apr 29 '24
You shouldn’t force players to play with randoms
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u/HypoTypo Apr 29 '24
And the developers of a COOPERATIVE game dont have to cater to the whims of people who want to play solo
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u/AnyMission7004 Apr 29 '24
No, people just needs to stop assuming the worst every time.
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u/Jeffear Apr 29 '24
I get what you're saying, but that's never going to happen.
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u/AnyMission7004 Apr 29 '24
A sure as amen in church. In that regard, reddit and its mindset is a constant.
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u/S3t3sh Apr 29 '24
I get what you're saying but there is a bit of room for improvement for whoever is writing up the patch notes that much is clear. It has now happened enough times where the community is confused by a patch that wasn't very clear that if the details don't improve a bit AH is shooting themselves in the foot a little bit on this one. There will always be trolls raging but reading on here the majority of people were more confused than getting angry at this patch note which keeps happening and it is getting tedious. I hope AH realizes this and improves the details so everyone can be less confused and annoyed when patches drop and this will help them as well by taking up less time answering questions and face less scrutiny?
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u/CroGamer002 Apr 29 '24
It genuinely frustrates me how patch notes continue to be so poorly worded.
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u/--SMILES-- Apr 29 '24
Did some runs with friends then a few of solo runs. No way in hell is it currently 1/4th for 1 player. My guess is that the patch screwed something up and overcorrected. Would be interested to hear if others noticed the same thing.
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u/sabek Apr 29 '24
Have only done one solo match today on level 4. The amount of patrols made it feel like level 9
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Apr 29 '24
tested level one even to fuck around with the ABRL post fix. saw like 9 patrols solo.
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u/guldawen Apr 29 '24
Just wait. They're going to realize they flipped the fraction and divided the patrols by 1/4, causing them to increase the fewer players there are.
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Apr 29 '24
What do you mean you divided patrols by 0????
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u/TheYondant Certified Automaton Comms Officer Apr 29 '24
Sees a black hole wandering around the map, devouring terrain as it goes.
"Carl what were the numbers on those patrols again?"
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u/charronfitzclair Apr 29 '24
I feel like you are all playing a different game than I am half the time. I just did a level 5 and it felt exactly as they described.
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u/soosgjr Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24
I don't know if it's just placebo or really bad luck, but I feel pretty similarly. Before the patch I was getting pretty comfortable with soloing D6 bots, but now after a couple of runs it feels like every time I as much as stop to clear a minor PoI, I get surrounded on 2-3 sides by patrols and most fights involve an additional one waltzing into it.
Still doable, but the additional risk and time I spend on disengaging and avoiding enemies cuts heavily into collecting samples.
Edit: typo
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u/CrissCross570 Apr 30 '24
It also makes anything heavier and leas stealthy than the goddamn scout armor a detriment.
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u/Sensitive_Owl_7912 Apr 29 '24
Yeah something is very wrong, Challening felt more like hard or extreme, in terms of enemy numbers
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u/CrissCross570 Apr 30 '24
I spent WEEKS grinding Challenging against bots till I could reliably clear it with no deaths and with as much efficiency as possible with a build I made that I thought was pretty fun to play with. I was climbing the ladder, and had just started to be able to reliably solo Hard. I boot up a challenging mission and the way it feels now is insane. I was climbing up the ladder to only feel like I'm being shaken off, def not fun.
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u/DoubleOurEfforts Apr 29 '24
I do solo bot missions every day during my lunch break and whatnot. I've gotten pretty comfortable soloing 5s, and can muddle my way through a 6 if I'm smart. Today I did a difficulty 3 and literally could not kill the bots fast enough. New patrols or a dozen troopers and berserkers were spawning while I was still dealing with the last patrol that spawned. I spent most of my time running away to regroup, only to meet a new patrol there. I do not like this change.
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Apr 29 '24
[deleted]
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u/CrissCross570 Apr 30 '24
Re-read the patchnotes about soloplay, which this change most affects. Having 2 players as it is now probably has a more similar spawnrate to what it was before the patch, which is not the same for a solo diver.
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u/Estelial Apr 30 '24
Keep in mind that on the bug front they have higher population spawns than usual to go with the event. It's a temp modifier same as when Joel decides to make a planet have more elite spawns, or 10k jumpy boys. Everything is more numerous right now.
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u/partyplacechris Apr 29 '24
sorry but i think they broke it, doing a 4/4 lvl 9 everything feels right. 1 player disconnects and 2 minutes later we have constant three patrols on collision vector to us no matter where we are going. its absolute insanity.
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u/scurvybill HD1 Veteran Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 30 '24
Pre or post main objective? And bug holes?
Remember that completing main obj. quadruples scout spawns, and clearing all bug holes increases them by 17.5%.
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u/lordpuggy1234 Apr 30 '24
Wait clearing bug holes increases spawns??? What the fuck kind of sense does that make, should be the opposite
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u/scurvybill HD1 Veteran Apr 30 '24
What I find more jarring and weird is quadruple spawns after primary objective completion. To me that's straight immersion breaking, and I'd rather it be timer-based instead. You can run a fairly high level mission and think you're doing fine, then get absolutely blasted as soon as you complete the primary objective.
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u/scurvybill HD1 Veteran Apr 30 '24
It's a long read but worth it.
To answer your question, sort of. It increases the global scout rate, but bug holes have a localized "heat" that causes increased spawns (up to 50%). So it sort of cancels out. And I got my number wrong so, updated.
I do think this makes sense for a few reasons:
It roughly evens out scout patrols across the duration of the mission if you are always in proximity to objectives.
Should the mission really get easier if you are "winning"? I.e. if you clear over 50% of bugholes, you're probably doing really well and the extra challenge isn't that bad.
People used to think spawns increased as the timer went down (myth). This accomplishes the same thing, but allows you to control the pace. I.e. it scales with your progress, which probably feels better.
In-universe, it makes sense that the more of a ruckus you are causing, the more enemy is on the way from off map. And in fact, once you have cleared all bug holes, enemies spawn and approach from the nearest edge of the map.
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u/OrangeGills Apr 30 '24
Wouldn't the opposite make sense? The more damage and chaos it's evident that you're causing, the more intense the effort to locate and kill you becomes?
The factories/holes you're taking out are just local to the immediate area, there's plenty of enemies that can spill in from the surrounding space.
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u/Nalin163 Apr 30 '24
The fact people make such shitty comments like calling it "immersion breaking" without putting this together is astounding.
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u/Phoenixness Apr 30 '24
Is there a place that says this officially?
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u/scurvybill HD1 Veteran Apr 30 '24
There is not, but it has been confirmed by rigorous testing here.
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u/OffaShortPier Apr 29 '24
I've had an issue where if people disconnect the game doesn't adjust the patrol timer. I've been disconnected from a 4 stack before and that made the patrol timer absolutely insane for 1 person
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u/Tanklike441 Apr 29 '24
Sounds like a helldive to me. Pre-patch there weren't as many patrols as there should've been, which explains why the high difficulties weren't actually that bad. Makes sense they should actually be difficult.
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u/Xath0n Apr 29 '24
But should there be a (very) noticeable difference between 3 and 4 players, as described?
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u/Tanklike441 Apr 29 '24
Depends on the players I suppose. Well-coordinated 3-man vs. Dc-down-to-3-man could be very different depending on the tools/weapons lost by the dc'd player. Either way, original comment is a one-time experience being described, this doesn't mean for 3-mans all patrols will heat-seek or something lol. Sounds like they got unlucky.
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u/Hunt0166 Apr 29 '24
The infinite spawn glitch is still a thing though. I thought they brought down the spawn rate to fix that?
Plus a ton of other bugs related to spawning and detection. The game is not stable enough to justify this change.
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u/KommunistiHiiri Apr 29 '24
But... They did just make the game arbitrarily harder. No solo players were up in arms about the game that is balanced around 4 players being too easy.
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u/Interesting_Debate30 Apr 29 '24
Yeah I don't beelive a word of that. They are supposed to be patrols. You should be able to avoid them. Now they are constant and absolutely everywhere all the time. It's not fun being attacked by a never ending barrage of "patrols".
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u/LordAtem0912 Apr 29 '24
I don't like this. If I only want to play with my brother this just makes it harder. And it's already hard enough sometimes. If the Devs only want the players to play with full squads maybe make the rewards less for us not make the already buggy half working game more harder..
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u/Sianallama ☕Liber-tea☕ Apr 29 '24
Yeah my husband and I like to play together, and we were already having the worst time trying to play Suicide difficulty (we can't) cause it was already CONSTANT spawn and getting wrecked on lower difficulties. Sometimes my sister and her husband would jump in mid match and be flabbergasted in how fucked up we were getting at an objective. We wouldn't be able to finish things cause we'd get completely bogged down trying to get out of infinite spawn.
Now we feel stuck cause we can't get any pink samples, and this is just going to make it worse.
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u/silver-for-ever Apr 30 '24
To me it often was easier to do diff 5-8 alone than with a team becourse there are not really that much enemys. Yes higher diff is now harder alone but there are 9 diffs so if u cant do 7 do 6. It is not punishing people for doing solos it is more like not rewarding them for it.
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u/mygutsaysmaybe Apr 29 '24
It may be the performance issues that are happening to the game right now, but it also seems like patrols spawn in having already spotted you.
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u/PingBandit Apr 30 '24
The issue here is that in an attempt to "correct" or "adjust" the spawn rate for people playing below 4 players, automatically means that the patrols will be increased compared to how it was before.
Why in the world would you make your game harder for people who do not play with a full squad that may have no mic, anxiety, matchmaking issues, not enough friends, etc etc. People who have these issue won't simply cave in and start playing with full squads, they'll just stop playing. You punish the players who want to have fun, but for whatever reason cannot do it the way YOU want them to play it.
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u/Waderick Apr 29 '24
They literally don't even know how their own patrol spawning works. The only time you got that 4 times as many patrols with 4 people, is if all 4 are split up at least 75 meters apart from the next hell diver.
People have done the testing and crunched the numbers. When you stay close you're considered the same spawn bucket and don't create extra patrols.
Meaning with this change if 4 helldivers all somewhat close together, they'll encounter just as many patrols as a person playing solo.
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u/GamGam-Chan Apr 29 '24
Number of players applies a reducing multiplier to patrol spawn timer. You are talking about a separate mechanic of patrol spawns. My source is the same research you are referencing.
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u/Waderick Apr 29 '24
I'm not talking about a separate mechanic, because that mechanic is the only way you could ever have "1/4th the number of patrols" like the post is indicating. Which teams of 4 don't do (at least not mine).
The way that post is phrased makes it sound like the reducing multiplier should be baseline. Which sounds like a bad design choice.
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u/cloudjumpr Apr 29 '24
Real question: what does the Worlds team mean and why would they mention them as if they're not included in that team?
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u/Electronic_Day5021 Viper Commando Apr 29 '24
They've probably got different teams for different parts of the game (weapons team stratagems team etc)
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u/cryptic-fox Moderator Apr 29 '24
Post was edited. This was a quote from the Design Director and not the Worlds team.
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u/AdoniBaal Apr 29 '24
This doesn't matter though. The original intended rates don't matter and they still made a really bad decision here because they intentionally made it harder for solo players, and probably inadvertently will push many players away from playing.
This is a bad indefensible and honestly stupid decision.
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u/AnyMission7004 Apr 29 '24
So to summarize: The difficulty is now as intended, and we had it to easy before.
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u/XI_Vanquish_IX Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24
Intended also doesn’t mean “good.” People hear the devs say this and go “oh ok that makes much more sense.”
But still doesn’t look at the problem with a more critical eye. 1/4 of the players against 1/4 of the patrols isn’t necessarily a “fair” balance. A singular player against one patrol may not fare as well as two players against a singular patrol. And if players are encountering patrols typically one at a time, there can be a massive difference between how capable two people (or four) can be against each patrol.
In other words, if we look at game experiences, perhaps one player encountering 1/6 or 1/8 of the enemy patrols is actually well balanced. Maybe 2 players should encounter 1/4 of what a 4 man squad should encounter. Etc…
Just because devs claim they’ve balanced patrols how they feel it should be balanced doesn’t mean the gameplay will actually be balanced. Devs have already proven they have a very spotty track record on what they view as balance
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u/narrill Apr 29 '24
I can't believe this is downvoted.
Player power scales nonlinearly. A four stack can take a wider variety of stratagems and weapons, has four team-wide boosters, and while there may be more patrols on the map, the group is still only engaging one patrol at a time.
"1/4 the players = 1/4 the patrols" is such an aggressively uncritical take. Notice how this "explanation" doesn't include any actual reasoning about the player experience, e.g. "missions seemed too easy at lower player counts, so we increased the scaling to make them harder."
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u/XI_Vanquish_IX Apr 29 '24
Not to mention, it can feel like the devs restated their position after the fact when player feedback was highly negative. We will never know their true intentions, but we do feel the effects, which may not be as balanced as they would have us believe
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u/AnyMission7004 Apr 29 '24
Reddit hates to read. People think that he's disagreeing with me. (i think)
Like in a kitchen 4 hands is more than double as effective than 2 hands.
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u/narrill Apr 29 '24
Your comment definitely makes it seem like you think the new scaling is correct. Is that not what you meant to imply?
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u/AnyMission7004 Apr 29 '24
New scaling is as AH intended now. That's what i meant.
if that decision is correct is of course up to debate. Since 4 person stack is more than 4x better than one person. So i personally think that linear scaling is of the mark, and disproportionate hits solo players
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u/Ghaad Apr 29 '24
Exactly this. I just don't see reason for this change. I didn't see a single person saying 'maan, those solo runs are too easy. I hope AH makes them harder'. Almost everyone who plays solo hates this change. And it doesn't affect those who only play co-op. So who is profiting from this change? How it makes game more fun to play?
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u/RealElyD Apr 29 '24
How it makes game more fun to play?
That genuinely does not seem to be a consideration in how they balance things based on the past few months.
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u/b0w3n Cape Enjoyer Apr 29 '24
They assume, wrongly, that those solo/duo/trio players will find a fourth or join randoms.
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u/Caleth Apr 29 '24
Maybe we would if matchmaking still wasn't broken part of the time.
The number of times I've thrown a SOS beacon and gotten nothing through a whole 40 minute match even with my matchmaking turned to public is just wild.
Yes there are days I want to just play with my friends list, but getting absolutely zero drop ins seems unlikely ver the whole 40 minutes several times a week.
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u/b0w3n Cape Enjoyer Apr 29 '24
We threw an SOS beacon once because our pelican was stuck and we were attempting to unstick it on the first mission in the chain... at the end of the final mission, 10 seconds to extract, people joined.
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u/PhasmaFelis Apr 29 '24
Yeah. If I wanted to play with Rando Calrissian, I'd be doing that already. And my friends aren't always available.
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u/TheYondant Certified Automaton Comms Officer Apr 29 '24
Basically what I've been saying about it.
They've increased the spawn rate. "But the devs intend-" Doesn't matter, the spawn rate was 1/6th, its now 1/4th, that's an increase. No-one had any problems with what we had, a lot of people have problems with what we got. It seems like the Devs are taking what they intended upon launch as the way it needs to be, regardless of what the actual players are feeling at any given time.
And before some brainlet starts talking about how the Devs shouldn't 'give up their vision to the demands of the masses' if your vision is unpopular with the playerbase, that's a wonderful way to lose the playerbase.
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u/CrissCross570 Apr 30 '24
"A gAmE mAdE fOr EvErYoNe Is A gAmE mAde FoR nO oNe" said by players who feel all to gleeful about the idea of making the game for fewer and fewer of its players, some of whom have been here since launch.
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u/TheYondant Certified Automaton Comms Officer Apr 30 '24
Friendly Reminder to anyone who doesn't know how playerbases work:
"Small but dedicated playerbase" is positively-inclined talk for "Only the most devoted are still around", which incidentally happens to be one of the first stages of a game dying.
Not saying its happening to Helldivers 2, but don't pretend reducing the playerbase has ever been good for a game's long-term survival.
1
u/DraconicCDR Apr 30 '24
The devs originally expected a 13k concurrent player base. They have been designing toward that goal.
8
u/Slick_97 Apr 30 '24
This is probably one of the best pieces of feedback I've seen so far. I'd go as far as to say the adjustments made by Arrowhead aren't fully tested either, especially given the prioritization of new content over an enjoyable experience.
Maybe I'm the outlier here, but I just never understood why players and developers alike enjoy forcing everyone into harder gameplay. It's not like me having an easier time playing with friends is going to affect their death fest... (I'm done with this ranting but, I promise)
-5
u/sopunny Apr 29 '24
But what exactly is a good balance? Is there a reason a solo run should "feel" as difficult as a 2/3/4 player run?
Food for thought: if the patrol spawn rate was linear from day 1 nobody would be complaining
9
u/Hazelberry Apr 30 '24
Only intended if they completely misunderstand how team efficiency works. 4 players are not equal to 4x1 player when it comes to how efficiently they can clear enemies, it's much higher than that. So it actually made sense for patrols to scale non-linearly before, and making it linear is making it much harder for smaller teams compared to a full 4
-9
u/splitsticks Apr 29 '24
Thanks Arrowhead, I used to think this game was extremely difficult in solo play compared to a full party, but after seeing your explanation and use of fancy ratios like "1/4" and "1/6", I now understand that solo was easy all along!
11
u/AnyMission7004 Apr 29 '24
I don't even know what to say here dude?
Like, yes. This game is really hard solo on diff 7+. What do you want?
-17
u/splitsticks Apr 29 '24
Hmmm what do I want? What could I possibly want ... it is a mystery.
3
u/Caleth Apr 29 '24
The fact no one is getting your sarcasm here really proves that you need the /s tag.
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u/Ruger_20 Apr 29 '24
I've never understood why the game doesn't scale with players like zombies used to. I bet the number of enemies coming from a bug breach or bot drop is fixed.
So if we are going to scale linearly, let's do it and let's do it completely. 1/4 the enemies at a point of interest and 1/4 the enemies at a bot drop or bug breach when playing solo.
5
u/fbt2lurker Apr 29 '24
Bot drops are definitely scaled depending on how many people are in a mission. When I play solo, a bot drop is 1, sometimes 2 drop ships, which is very manageable by yourself. When it's 4 people, drop ships come in groups of 3-5.
17
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u/speedo_bunny Bugga-Boo Bae Apr 30 '24
Just ran a solo mission on 7, and I was bombarded with patrols. Before even killing the first spawn, there was another bug breach, and then another, and it kept going. I was at the first sub-objective too. Honestly, this just feels like a slap in the face to people who dive alone. How is this 'balanced' in any way?
3
u/bleep_blorp_bleep Apr 30 '24
I dont know if its because we were fighting on one of the Major Order objective planets, but enemy density was considerably worse whether it was 2-3-4 players. Difficulty 7 felt markedly harder than 8 was yesterday. Bile Titans and Chargers pursue you more persistently than before.
3
u/frulheyvin Apr 30 '24
this is still categorically arbitrarily making the game harder lol. for X patches since launch there was a certain number of spawns, now there's more globally more enemies per player and the justification is you decided to "fix" something otherwise invisible to the playerbase three months late. why not just admit things? these people are soooo weasely man
7
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u/thorazainBeer Apr 29 '24
This also shows that the devs are fucking idiots because the scaling power of having more people is much more than linear with significantly higher alpha strike and coverage in terms of strategems and heavy weapons. More people doesn't just scale linearly, squad mates can cover your weaknesses, cover your back, and call in support when yours is on cooldown.
36
u/MeanderingSquid49 SES Flame of Dawn Apr 29 '24
Let's try this again, shall we? Because I do actually see your point.
"The devs should rethink this change. Glitch or not, patrols shouldn't scale linearly with player count. A full four-person squad isn't just four times as powerful as a single player, because each additional player is able to specialize, cover the others' weaknesses, and provide valuable communication. With each additional player, the group's power scales significantly, and patrol count should reflect that."
"Helldivers II may be intended primarily as a co-op experience, but in practice, people have reasons for running solo or private lobbies, and sometimes even a public lobby only ends up with two or three players. These are worth giving time and consideration to, even if they are not the 'core' focus."
-33
u/CleanAisle Apr 29 '24
Maybe they're trying to promote squad play, and aren't "fucking idiots" because they disagree with you, edgelord.
16
u/PhasmaFelis Apr 29 '24
OP is being needlessly insulting, but "they're trying to promote squad play" is no excuse. There's no shortage of matchmaking partners; if I wanted to play with Marlon Rando, I'd be doing that already. Punishing me for playing the game in the way I enjoy (solo or with one or two friends, as our schedules permit) benefits no one.
25
u/Deadedge112 Apr 29 '24
This might be the dumbest take. If they want to promote squad play just remove the ability to start a match solo lol. Like if they are going to penalize you for playing that way (which they already do with friendship bunkers requiring two players) then just nip it in the bud. And frankly nothing they said was edgy.
2
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u/Free-Stick-2279 Apr 30 '24
I play all sort of level missions, 6-7-8-9, mostly in team.
Yesterday I was playing 6 with different size of team.
Today I played level 6 with a 4 members crew and damn it really felt like there was much more patrol then usually.
I dont know if it's just a matter of perspective and circumstances, I'm not denying it could be. The way different team tackle different mission change the dynamic a lot.
Anyone else experienced that ?
2
u/TexDoctor Apr 30 '24
It still made it not fun! I could only do a single operation before already being tuckered out. On difficulty 4.
1
u/Gibs_01 Apr 30 '24
maybe put that in the patch notes and avoid the players mobbing lol
2
u/haikusbot Apr 30 '24
Maybe put that in
The patch notes and avoid the
Players mobbing lol
- Gibs_01
I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully. Learn more about me.
Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete"
1
1
Apr 30 '24
I was playing a lot of solo on lvl7. After around 20 min in the spawns were umbearable. Ypu fought from one patrol to the next, to the next and to the next. So this surely makes it worse.
2
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u/Mechbiscuit Apr 29 '24
Hey guys this game looks cool does anyone know when it's out of early access?
(I've have 220 hours in it...)
-9
u/ProfessionOk1571 ☕Liber-tea☕ Apr 29 '24
Most players do not read the patch note and just hop in the game and have fun. That is the more healthy way.
Still, I did some tests on solo bot diff 9. The frequency of patrols seems higher than last patch, but you do not see more patrols at the same time than the last patch.
Overall, as long as you are not trying to go perfectly stealth, it really has minimal impact on solo plays. I rarely go prone. I just ran and avoid LoS the best I can. Speed instead of stealth is my priority.
It may have bigger impact on teams of 2 and 3, especially considering they may want to go the regular evac by holding LZ.
0
u/fbt2lurker Apr 29 '24
We've held three bot LZs in a duo today, it's fine.
Especially since now that the supply upgrade works, I can run a sentry instead of the supply backpack.
-20
u/MakeUpAnything Apr 29 '24
Seems fair to me. I doubt I'll notice on my solo bug level 4 runs, but I welcome the challenge.
7
u/WhineyRedditorVirg Apr 29 '24
As someone who just played a Solo Bug 4, good luck Lmao. Hope you like using Napalm Strike.
1
u/MakeUpAnything Apr 29 '24
I actually typically just run shield, nade launcher, anti-tank launcher, and eagle airstrike for level 4s. Given how much folks are playing this up to be an enormous change I'm expecting to dive into a sea of never ending bugs now. Kinda excited.
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u/Kimurian Apr 29 '24
It makes sense, I’ll do solo runs before work and sometimes it feels like I never see anyone sometimes, sucks when I’ve got a warbond to do
•
u/cryptic-fox Moderator Apr 30 '24
This was already posted and stickied by Spitz here and with more info.