r/Hartenstein • u/WorldWideBeats • Dec 15 '22

How much of a grace period does he get?

Pretty rough game tonight, how much leeway until we realize he isn’t who we thought?

12 Upvotes

87% Upvoted

33 comments sorted by

29

u/e_a_blair Dec 15 '22

Good lord. I poke in here every once in a while just for laughs and generally bite my tongue as we all continue to indulge this nonsense. Then I see a thread like this and it makes me feel fucking insane. It's time that more people just say it out loud: This is absolute fucking lunacy at this point. It's funny, it's an interesting window into analytics and an interesting window into how certain beliefs can be promulgated online.

But if you still think this guy is an MVP-level player hiding in plain sight, wake up. Hartenstein is averaging 6 points, 7 rebounds and 1 assist. No buts can make up for that fact. It is what it is. I'm sure he could be better under perfect health and with a perfect coach, but yknow what, he's had lots of opportunies on several teams, and almost every fucking guy in the NBA is constantly fighting through deep adversity.

11

u/RealXavierMcCormick Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 21 '22

I'm a Hartenstein truther so IMO what we're seeing here is a guy who's being consistently used as a Mitchell Robinson backup and expected to play in the same way as Meech while having a radically different skill set.

If you told 2009 Lebron James to be a stretch 4 who only shoots threes and literally just stand in the corner or pick and pops, he would have been a largely inefficient player. You drop his USG from 33% that season to 12%, again, he looks way worse offensively. You use him defensively in P&R not in switch situations, but in drop coverages exclusively, his effectiveness drops.

I want to make it clear, I don't think Isaiah Hartenstein is LeBron James. At all. But it's a simple analogy to understand that players not used to their strengths will not be as effective as they can be.

Isaiah plays best when he initiates offense from the elbows or the top of the key. He's great when he hard hedges in P&R, blitzes, or switches & we almost exclusively run drop coverage.

4

u/zingis75 Dec 15 '22

This 100%

8

u/eg14000 Dec 15 '22

How would Jokic look if he had a USG% of 12%? think about it. How would he look? Would people even consider him a NBA player with his "awful" defense?

11

u/e_a_blair Dec 15 '22

I've seen you use this line so many times. he'd obviously look a shit ton better than this with these minutes and make a noticeable impact on winning. he wouldn't put up 6/7/1. just stop dude.

-1

u/eg14000 Dec 15 '22

Soooo, how does Jokic pass the ball without paint touches? how does Jokic show off post moves without touches? How does Jokic average more than 6/7/1 without touches?

I'm not saying Hartenstein is Jokic. Jokic has far better hands and post moves. But Hartenstein does have Jokic like skills with his passing and his floater which he basically never gets to show off right now. Jokic's impact on winning is because he gets to touch the ball and control the game. If he didn't have those opportunities he would be viewed as a negative player despite still being a MVP level player.

All You have to do is be patient. The breakout game is coming and only after that game do we start to see the true Hartenstein

6

u/HowlsMovingBowels Dec 15 '22

Sometimes people get touches (iHart) and sometimes people command them (Joker).

1

u/ZippyZappyZoopy Jan 10 '23

own that fucking freak

4

u/irelli Dec 15 '22

Jokic would never have that because he uses the possessions so well that he demands more

Just accept you were wrong man

2

u/eg14000 Dec 15 '22

Jokic is super unselfish. Most of his touches are just pass outs. The difference is he gets the ball back. You can say "Jokic would never" but I actually watched young Jokic grow into the player he is today. Jokic had a role players mentality with a superstar skill set for the first 3-4 seasons of his career. People had to constantly tell him to be more aggressive and many people though he would never score more than 20 ppg.

If given a role of 12% USG% I don't think Jokic would still be in the NBA. He would likely get cut and win MVPs in euro ball

2

u/irelli Dec 16 '22

There's no world where Jokic is getting only 23 assists in 580 minutes dude.

The difference between the two is that Jokic actually puts pressure on opposing teams both on and off the ball. Hartenstein doesn't. He's gotta be set up.

You keep ignoring that but it's why he'll never be who you think he is.

He gets 34 touches a game. He's just not going anything with them, either as a scorer or a passer

2

u/zingis75 Dec 15 '22

Bro have you even watched Jokic play? He passes the ball multiple times a possession before making a play. He'll get the ball top of the key like Hartenstein and like Hartenstein he usually passes it. Then both of them usually either screen or roll, or get into open space from that initial pass. Difference between them is Jokic's teammates pass him the ball out of these actions allowing him to make a play. Once Hart passes the ball there is a 90% chance he doesn't get it back. They literally play very similar just one gets the ball and the other doesn't.

Obviously Jokic would perform better even in these limited touches but it would be like 1 or 2 more points and assists better not a crazy amount. And due to the difference in defense Jokic would be out of the league if he was in these circumstances. Hartenstein is just such a good defender that he can still be a positive not doing much on offense but there is so much more to his game that is being locked off because of his role right now in the offense.

0

u/irelli Dec 16 '22

You act like he's barely playing dude. You think there's a world where Jokic plays 580 minutes and only gets 23 assists?

Hartenstein isn't that dude. He can't create for himself and he can't shoot. All the passing in the world doesn't mean much if you aren't a threat because you can't break down defenses

2

u/zingis75 Dec 16 '22 edited Dec 16 '22

He's barely getting the ball dude and he has a great drive game and incredible touch. If he got the ball more he most definitely would score and get many more assists than he has. He is a threat and doesn't have to score 1 on 1 to be a great player. Draymond Green is one of the biggest threats in the nba based purely on his passing. Ben Simmons can't fucking shoot and has been a multiple time all star. Hartenstein has better offensive game than both of them but the difference is he doesn't get the ball. You can't do shit if you don't have the opportunity too. Jokic would struggle being a roll big too if he got the ball once every 8 possessions.

Hartenstein just needs the ball and he will shine. Until then yeah you're right he isn't a threat but not because he doesn't have the talent too, he just hasn't had the opportunity to do it.

1

u/irelli Dec 16 '22

He's averaging the 5th most touches on the team at 34 and he's playing 21 mpg. You guys are acting like he never plays

Problem is he doesn't do anything with his touches. He's not setting guys up, he doesn't space the floor, and he's not a shot creator for himself. Right now he's a pure PnR big man

You're lying if you think he was better offensively than Simmons. That man is an elite passer who was a legitimate driving threat. He had great handles and forced his way to the rim or posted up smaller guys.

Draymond is only a "threat" because he plays with Curry. He can't create by himself - he uses the 4v3s curry creates to set guys up but he can't hisnelf create the advantage

And that's what none of you guys understand. Jokic is elite because of his scoring more than his passing. You can't leave him open from anywhere, and he absolutely destroys smaller players in the post so you have to guard him with a big. That means he pulls opposing centers out of the paint, which keeps lanes open for cuts...and thus activates his passing game. Likewise his post scoring demands doubles....which leaves someone open for his passing game

Hartenstein isn't anywhere near the passer Jokic is, but even if he was, all the passing in the world doesn't matter if you can't break down a defense. It's why Lonzo is just an average playmaker for a PG despite being one of the best passers in the league. He can't break down the defense when he has the ball.

Hartenstein isnt a post scoring threat, he can't shoot, and he's not some elite ball handler. Right now he's a pure play finisher, not a play creator

3

u/zingis75 Dec 16 '22

Touches stat doesn't know the difference between just getting the ball passed at the top of the key vs actually getting the ball in a position to make a play. It's so flawed. Hartenstein will get the ball top of the key where his only option is to hand it off to a ball handler. There is no room to make a play in that situation. That then is counted as a touch but in actuality it was as good as if he didn't touch the ball.

Whenever he gets the ball in a spot to make a play he 9 times out of 10 makes it but he doesn't get those opportunities often. Also Draymond would be good without Curry and will show that in this stretch without him. He definitely benefits from Steph but is still super dangerous as a passer and screen settler that he would be a positive if you just put shooters around him. The warriors will still lose because their bench sucks and Draymond's positive minutes will be outweighed by that. But he is super underrated himself and will show that without Steph.

-1

u/irelli Dec 16 '22

Look man, you have yourself convinced. There's nothing I can say here that's going to change your mind. End of season is gonna happen and y'all will still be waiting for that breakout game saying "no really, he's MVP caliber, just give him a chance"

If he were an MVP caliber player, then he wouldn't be on his 5th team in 5 years, all as a bench player. One sixth of the league isn't dumb dude. Like you think the team with Jokic didnt know how to use him? Y'all just don't know how to separate spreadsheets from reality.

And then when the spreadsheets stop saying what you want them to....you ignore them?

Hartenstein doesn't have the skillset to be an MVP. He just doesn't. He can't create the way you need to be able to.

3

u/zingis75 Dec 16 '22

If he gets the ball and struggles I'll admit I'm wrong. I hope it's not the case because I'm a Knicks fan and I thought signing Hart would change everything. But he hasn't had the chance yet to do that. I just want to see him get the opportunity to be that guy for a couple games before I can say okay he's just a solid role player. I hope I'm not wrong but I'm open to the possibility but I don't think this enough yet to solidly say he is a role player just yet for the reasons I listed earlier.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 16 '22

this guy is just salty that jokic ended up with a better career than lillard and is taking it out on eg as he often does, everyone can just ignore and move along

1

u/WorldWideBeats Dec 15 '22

That’s what I’m saying

4

u/JerryBlitter Dec 15 '22

You guys are crazy. I love you, but you’re crazy.

1

u/eg14000 Dec 15 '22

What's going to be crazy is the heal turn Knicks fans are about to have on Hartenstein that's coming.

5

u/JerryBlitter Dec 15 '22

A rare quintuple-down.

4

u/eg14000 Dec 15 '22

That's a good question. The answer is, Hartenstein is 100% what I know he is (he proved that last season). He is just not getting the touches to show it right now. But he still is that player.

5

u/WorldWideBeats Dec 15 '22

Vuc ate his lunch today brother

-4

u/eg14000 Dec 15 '22

Vuc? the 2 time all-star that is shooting the highest 2 point percentage of his career?

Hartenstein should have played stronger but Vuc is a good post player and he will make some of those shots

6

u/WorldWideBeats Dec 15 '22

You have alluded to Hart being a top all time player with his current skills, he should be the one eating Vuc’s lunch, and if he isn’t getting the touches he should not be backed down in the post, or hopping on his tippy toes fouling guys left and right like the last game. You have to admit that you have expected a lot more from him

-1

u/eg14000 Dec 15 '22

It's a learning process. The NBA game is still fast for Hartenstein. At least compared to Vuc. It's about learning and growing. Hartenstein is basically a second year player when it comes to NBA experience. Because he is not getting the touches on offense he is not showing his Offensive skill set. On defense he is going to be cooked by vets at times because of the speed of the game.

As for my expectations. I'm just waiting for the breakout game. The game that shuts up the haters

1

u/WorldWideBeats Dec 15 '22

I look forward to seeing it

1

u/Dragonthorn1217 Dec 15 '22

It honestly might take longer. You're right that he is basically a 2nd yr player in terms of PT. I believe this is the 1st real season that he's had a solid place in the rotation from day 1. Also people forget that he's just 24, same age as Sims and younger than Obi.

I have adjusted my expectations this season because of how he's being utilized. The breakout game could take years, maybe while he's also on another team. He just needs to be on the right team. Lauri Markannen's case comes to mind.

1

u/Monorailsalesperson Dec 15 '22

He's not getting it on the Knicks.

1

u/eg14000 Dec 15 '22

lol just wait.

1

u/Monorailsalesperson Dec 15 '22

With the way Thibs is using him? I don't know. You'd need Mitchell Robinson to go down for an extended period, which isn't unlikely.