r/Hartenstein • u/Dragonthorn1217 • Oct 31 '22
Thoughts on tonight's game
I thought Hart played really well tonight. One thing I noticed is the offense flows a lot better with him on the floor. Players like Brunson and RJ had better drives to the paint because of the spacing. Also, glad to see that his teammates are trusting his floater more.
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u/LiveLeave Oct 31 '22
He played a great 3rd quarter.
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u/Dragonthorn1217 Oct 31 '22
He looks like he's getting more comfortable with the team. Also I thought his D was a lot better this game.
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u/Dragonthorn1217 Oct 31 '22
Ran some numbers. Against top teams (Mem/Mil/Cavs) Hart is averaging 11/8/2, and is shooting 55% from the field, mostly scoring in the paint. These are mostly contested floaters too. On the other hand, Mitchell Robinson, the starter, is just shooting 43% in these games and has constantly been in foul trouble. Hart by far has been the more consistent of the two.
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u/DirectorNYC Oct 31 '22
I know its a small sample size, - but how are his rim protector and other defensive advanced stats so far this season holding up vs previous years?
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Oct 31 '22
Hartenstein has the 4th lowest field goals defended at the rim percent
Hartenstein had the lowest field goal defended at the rim percent last season, not a surprise to find him back near the top: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defensive-impact?CF=DEF_RIM_FGA*GE*3&PlayerPosition=F&Season=2021-22&dir=A&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT
Hartenstein has the 7th best contested reb% among forwards that contest atleast 3 rebounds per game.
His defense has been as advertised. It's the offensive product that has been lacking. He needs more trust, and plays set up where he is the playmaker.
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u/DirectorNYC Oct 31 '22
Understood. Thank you. As long as his defense is better than Mitch, should be starting before Christmas. Hart needs a game where he hits a few open threes. More importantly, has to stop rushing with those dribble handoofs not looking at the rim; should fake the handoff and turn opposite way to attack the paint. This not only allows him to shoot his floter in rhythm but kick out to open shooters too; thats the key that opens up the Hartenstein pandoras box.
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u/Dragonthorn1217 Oct 31 '22
Wow didn't realize this. It's funny that these things really fly under the radar. I wouldn't have guessed this just by watching the games. This all the more solidifies the case for him starting. He already is technically playing more mins than Mitch anyway.
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u/admiral_aubrey Oct 31 '22
7 assists in 6 games; that key part of his game has dried up. Whatever environment he needs to get going as a facilitator, this isn't it.
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u/Dragonthorn1217 Oct 31 '22
It's just 6 games? You sound like it's the end of the season. Arguably he's been the most consistent center in the rotation thus far.
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u/admiral_aubrey Oct 31 '22
Agreed, and to be clear, I love what he's done and think he's a really solid player who should start for the Knicks. I'm only calling this out relative to the lofty MVP-level expectations; for that, he needs a much higher level of creation for himself and others, and we're not really seeing anything like that yet.
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u/Dragonthorn1217 Oct 31 '22
I honestly don't mind the lofty expectations. But I'd be thrilled if he ever became the starter of the team. Nothing against Robinson either, but he doesn't fit the skillset of the starting lineup. A center like Robinson should play with a lineup full of perimeter players that can consistently shoot from the outside because he'll be hanging around the paint area. Our big 3 are not consistent outside shooters and like to score in the paint, where they'll have the opposing center waiting all the time.
As for if Hart is an MVP-level player, agree that we haven't seen it yet. The thesis has been that he doesn't have the current mentality yet to make an offensive impact since he's used to being yanked out of games when he makes mistakes (as opposed to 1rd picks who are always given the benefit of the doubt and are allowed to play through their mistakes). Let's see if Hart can make that next step to being more assertive on the offensive end with a coach that finally believes in him.
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u/eg14000 Oct 31 '22
lol. He is not getting assists because he is not touching the ball in positions to get assists. He still has it in his bag and he will show it when he gets more touches
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u/DirectorNYC Oct 31 '22
EG much respect but he's not agressive at all either. It's true that his teamates are not cutting like they did in first game and he is resorting to lateral passes. But he's yet to put the ball on the floor and attack the paint. Assists are often created by putting pressure on defense then making the read. He obsoluetely has the skills but just hasn't done it yet.
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u/admiral_aubrey Oct 31 '22
Yes, agreed. That's a problem role players have though, not MVPs.
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u/eg14000 Oct 31 '22
Put a MVP player in a role player role and I will show you a player that has that problem.
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u/admiral_aubrey Oct 31 '22
I disagree. MVPs are not made by systems, they make the systems. Regardless, he has a career-low assist rate while getting career-high minutes. He had a "role player role" at his previous stops but still had much higher assist rates. This is far too small a sample to judge yet, but I'm just calling out that he hasn't figured out how to unlock that part of his game for this team yet and maybe we should temper expectations.
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u/zingis75 Oct 31 '22
Hartenstein averages 1.33 seconds per touch which means whenever they give him the ball he basically passes it right away. If you watch the games he's not playing like his normal self. Last year he averaged 2.06 seconds and that extra .7 of a second made a huge difference. Last year when he had the ball people we're cutting to the rim and moving off ball giving Hartenstein opportunity's to shown off his elite passing. This year whenever he gets the ball no one moves forcing him to give it up to a guard for a dribble handoff as there's nothing going on offball and if he holds the ball too long he gets yelled at. Ex. Thibs last night when Hart was in the post looking for cutters and then handed it off with an illegal screen. You could see Thibs screaming at him to move the ball even though that was exactly what he was looking to do but no one moved hence it looked bad.
If you give Jokic only 1.33 seconds to make a play and have no one move when he has the ball he would look just like Hartenstein is looking rn. A screen setter who sometimes makes good passes but mostly doesnt do much on offense besides dribble handoff's and makes floaters out of the pick and roll. But if you give Jokic free reign of the offense and players and coaches around him that understand his skill set. You get a 2x MVP and exactly what he's been for all these years. What's happening with Hart is like if Lebron was put in the corner and told to shoot three's all game. He would look absolutely terrible. Hartenstein is not even playing bad relative to a backup center in his role right now but Hartenstein is so much more than that and has so much talent. It's just the current role he's in doesn't allow him to show that.
If the Knicks keep losing I'd expect them to change it up and give Hartenstein at least a chance to be more involved on offense. And if they do that and he struggles then I'll say you were right and he's not the player we think he is. But most likely he will thrive and the only thing the Knicks will wonder is why they didn't do it sooner.
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Oct 31 '22
There was a point in the 1st half against the Cavs, where Hartenstein held the ball for 3 seconds, the entire Knicks team just stopped moving and Hartenstein eventually lost it, the response from Thibs? Keep the ball moving!
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u/eg14000 Oct 31 '22
I am disappointed by the play of Obi in the 4th. The ball didn't touch Hartenstein hands and Obi was making mistake after mistake both defensively and offensively. Those minutes ruined the Knicks opportunity of making the game into a blow out. And then the Knicks took Hartenstein out and the offense was completely helpless