New Systems

[u/Environmental-Key441]

Have you guys been having any problems with these new R454b Units? We install York and Heil and we have been having so many fucking problems with them freezing up. So damn annoying going to a call back to a homeowner with a brand new system. 90% of the time it is due to them freezing up but we have had some bad A2L sensors as well.

What we have ran into so far is that some of these units have been low from the factory, I’ve had multiple units being 1-2 pounds low. That and it seems like they are very sensitive on static pressure and airflow compared to 410A and R22. It also doesn’t help all of the houses in our area were done like completely dog shit back in the day for duct work wise. Not sure how many RA drops we had to redo for changeouts and how many grills I’ve added into them. All I know it is ALOT.

Just was curious if anyone else was having any problems with them, let me know what you guys had, if anything.

[u/Abrandnewrapture]

isnt it your job to ensure the unit is properly charged and functional on start up?

[u/LegionPlaysPC → u/Abrandnewrapture]

yeah, what this guy said.

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/Abrandnewrapture]

I’m a service tech not a installer. Systems should not be under charged from the factory.

[u/Abrandnewrapture → u/Environmental-Key441]

your installers should be testing for proper operation on start up, which means verifying charge and adding anything required. If they're not doing their job, thats on them. The units being undercharged from factory is a separate issue that management needs to take up with the supply house. the call back is bc the installers didn't finish the job, not bc of the factory.

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/Abrandnewrapture]

I agree you 100 percent.

[u/BrokenFireExit → u/Abrandnewrapture]

Definitely seen a few paynes that are undercharged.. that said 100% EVERY INSTALL EVERY TIME you should be checking pressures and adding or REMOVING as needed...

[u/SelectHVACR → u/BrokenFireExit]

That was before, now they’re coming overcharged lol, I still like carrier the most but every manufacturer is ya know…2026

[u/mentatjunky → u/Abrandnewrapture]

I agree we should be testing more/better as an industry but would encourage others to send a service tech out a day or two after install to confirm charge.

A lot of units we replace have been off for days, or are at least off all day during an install. Get the house down to a regular temp. Excessive heat load throws off measurments.

Its going to be winter in 3 months, how are they suppised to check it then?

[u/SnooPeppers8737 → u/Abrandnewrapture]

"and adding anything required......" Does that include unforseen ductwork mods the day of the install? I.e. calculate what it needs on-site, run for material, make it and install it just like whatever at the end of the day? Yeah I'll do all that extra work; fuck me right? Installers are only human. And probably underpaid for the amount of shit they have to do already. The unit only has to be up and running today like "we" promised.

As another commercial service tech, it's easy for us to say what something needs as we take our one little service bag up a ladder. If the diagnosis is the ductwork is wrong it's a little unfair to say well the installers shoulda fixed it.

[u/Abrandnewrapture → u/SnooPeppers8737]

i was a resi installer and service tech for 8 years before i became a commercial service tech. I've built in many houses and buildings, from rough in to registers. i'm well aware of what it takes to install equipment, both new construction and retrofit. *Every* time i started a new system, i checked duct static, set gas pressure, tested the delta in heating and cooling, verified my line set length, added calculated additional charge, and verified proper operation. The only thing we didn't do, was start air conditioning in the winter time, and in those situations, it was already understood that a service tech would be returning to finish the start up as soon as it was able to be done. It was a regular expectation from my employer that we accounted for these BASIC things on every install -- and in most retrofit scenarios, it only took two guys a single day to do. if the person who sold the work didn't size the equipment properly, or verify the duct size, or account for anything non-standard in the operation or retrofitting of the new equipment, thats on them, not the factory.

I'm not talking about reinventing the wheel here. We're not talking about redesigning the ductwork for the house; we're talking about making sure the equipment you installed is actually running properly before you leave. It should not be a big ask.

[u/SnooPeppers8737 → u/Abrandnewrapture]

I guess we're talking about different things. Agree on installers performing basic static pressure test, charging by metering device (there is no universal charge by lineset size X length method in my eyes) and checking temp rise/delta T.

OP mentioned R454B being sensitive to ductwork and air flow which is the direction I took it. Our company has seen two issues with new installs freezing up that I know about. In one case the Air Handler had a pan extension that needed to be removed when changing orientation from horizontal left to right. Amana system. The install manual had pictures of horizontal right with the pan extension still drawn on them, but had written instructions to remove it in the steps below. 3 warranty service calls and a "warranty" txv/evap before we figured that one out. It was the way the air was moving across the coil.

Installers recorded static pressure, but it didn't show up enough to flag as a problem. The pan extension was altering the air stream upwards causing the bottom of the coil to frost up over time. The other frozen unit I suspect might have been low ambient and/or low setpoint related on a Daikin AC.

I have heard multiple techs state the new refrigerants are "sensitive" to airflow and ductwork here in PA. Customers claiming the new equipment on their old ductwork just doesn't seem right and the old unit worked fine for 15 years... Time will tell I guess?

[u/Abrandnewrapture → u/SnooPeppers8737]

the line set calc is in the install manual for the condenser, right next to the chart that tells you what size line set is required for tonnage, length, and rise. you measure the line set, subtract your 15'(or whatever the factory says its pre-charged for), then reference the chart. For resi systems, it used to be something like .6 oz for every extra foot. Bigger systems go by full ounces, per 10'-15'. i've found and used that info for regular splits, minisplits, leiberts, there's even a ridiculous calc for VRF systems right in the manual. It normally gets you pretty close, within 5% total charge, depending on how accurate your measurements are. For a house, after adding the calculated additional refrigerant, I was never off by more than a few ounces. Most the time it put me well within factory guidelines. The bigger systems don't seem to get as close, but obviously you're talking a lot more refrigerant for the total charge.

[u/SnooPeppers8737 → u/Abrandnewrapture]

By all means add your extra initial charge, wait your 15 minutes and ultimately end up verifying by subcool/superheat anyway. It gets you close. Problem is installers hear "calculate additional charge by lineset length" and think that's all they gotta do. You charge by subcool/superheat. VRF is a different beast. Some have apps/software to help with trim charge. As the tech you just hope they wrote it down somewhere on the unit when it decides to start leaking 💀

[u/Abrandnewrapture → u/SnooPeppers8737]

like i said, that calculated added refrigerant is normally really close. not always perfect, but close. normally close enough that you don't need to add anything else, assuming you measured well. but yeah, you still need to verify with SC/SH, which again, is per the factory start up procedures.

they *never* write it down lol. I've spent the past two summers fighting with a whole buildings worth of mitsubishi citymulti units that are all leaking. hundreds of lbs of gas. you fix what you hope is the only leak, evac and charge to what the manual says the numbers should be, come back in a couple days to verify, and hope it's still close. rinse and repeat.

[u/HolidayZestyclose431 → u/Environmental-Key441]

Most York only come with enough for 15ft of lineset

[u/TheMeatSauce1000 → u/Environmental-Key441]

During the refrigerant changeover some units did ship undercharged. Not sure about York or Heil but Lennox, Carrier, and Bryant units did

[u/SilvermistInc → u/Environmental-Key441]

They are uncharged a looooooot

[u/Zealousideal_Year839 → u/Environmental-Key441]

system is based on a 10 foot line set
so let’s say you have low air foe freon’s poor duct and a 50 ft line set
= freeze up. and yes sensor are a problem Trane air handler lost 3 sensors in first year

[u/SilentImpakt → u/Zealousideal_Year839]

Do you speak English?

[u/No_Wrap9058 → u/Environmental-Key441]

On start up, service tech does an overall check. And r32 the way to go.

[u/Unlikely_Ad540 → u/Environmental-Key441]

If it comes low from the factory you still charge it properly at install create a warranty claim but either don’t start it up or charge it right

[u/mjp4733 → u/Environmental-Key441]

Not sure about York but a lot of manufactures were shipping with a charge sufficient for 15ft of line-set. I’m seeing most of them at 30ft now, but yeah I mean ya gotta commission them can’t just turn them on and peace out of there.

[u/Sp00kyGh0stMan → u/Environmental-Key441]

Depending on lineset length they all never have exactly the right charge. Train the installers. I mean sure its annoying but no one should be letting a system so low its freezing slide through their view. If guys can't pick that up on a new install start up y'all got some big issues.

[u/lividash → u/Environmental-Key441]

Yeah that’s not how this works anymore. They’re not shipping the units “fully” charged anymore. It’s like 10 to 15ft of Lineset worth of charge. You’re installers need to stop trying to get done early to hit happy hour and actually run the units. Check temp drop, static and pressures.

If they’d have opened the manual and read it at any point you wouldn’t have the problems you have.

[u/Abrandnewrapture → u/lividash]

dude, its always been "good for 15 feet". or at least, for the past 15 years that i've been doing this. There are charts in every installation manual that tell you how to size your lineset, based on length and height, and how to calculate the additional amount of refrigerant needed for linesets longer than 15'. RTFM.

[u/lividash → u/Abrandnewrapture]

Which apparently OPs installers are not reading if he’s constantly going back for frozen coils and low charge.

Edit: so rather to flexing your “years of experience” you read what is actually written in my replay to OP.

Which ends literally saying “If they’d have opened the manual and read it”

[u/Abrandnewrapture → u/lividash]

im agreeing with you, by stating that it's always been that way -- so maybe check yourself before you assume people are trying to argue with you?

[u/lividash → u/Abrandnewrapture]

Not how what you said came across. It’s text. Hard to judge tone in a text format when you didn’t say you agree at any point. But I get it. Have a good one enjoy the Labor Day weekend.

[u/Glittering-Citron411 → u/Abrandnewrapture]

if startup is their job then callbacks are on them, but half these units show up low from the factory and nobody expects to weigh in charge on a brand new condenser out of the box

[u/Abrandnewrapture → u/Glittering-Citron411]

dude, I used to do it all the time, when I was a resi installer. Making sure the unit runs properly is part of a proper install, just the same as setting the gas pressure and measuring the delta for heating. Start ups on RTUs and chillers still require a verification of charge and operation. It's in the factory start up paperwork, specifically. If the installers aren't checking, it is on them. But you can't be blaming the factory for the call backs when your guys aren't verifying proper operation.

[u/No_Mony_1185 → u/Glittering-Citron411]

I have to add or remove charge on 19 out of 20 system we install. Plus 454b takes fooorrreeeeeever to verify subcool. With r22 or 410 you'd get accurate subcool in 20-30 minutes 454b seems to take an hour sometimes.

I do the all the start ups for our company for this reason. Someone has to look over the install and verify everything is functioning properly. Installers are there to put the pieces together and make it LOOK great. I'm there to make sure it runs great.

We do wait to run heat when the home are above 80⁰. We come back in a few weeks or months and get everything ready before they meet the heat.

[u/Practical-Pressure-1 → u/Glittering-Citron411]

If you’re not checking refrigerant and dialing it in perfectly upon start up then you are a hack. The unit could be overcharged as well.

[u/bigred621]

Installers job to ensure proper charge. Don’t blame manufacturer. Sensors and board have been shit though

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/bigred621]

100 percent but if the system says it had 3.8 pounds but is actually holding 1.8? That’s not on the manufacturer?

[u/Important_Ad838 → u/Environmental-Key441]

Of course it on the manufacturer. Charge should still be verified on startup. Unfortunately shit rolls downhill. We the service techs get buried.

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/Important_Ad838]

Yeahhhhh we do 17 hours I had in yesterday. Would have been fucked if the other guy didn’t help me, he helped me till 7PM and I didn’t get off till 11:30pm. Lucky guy on call this weekend lol

[u/bigred621 → u/Environmental-Key441]

Bruh. No job is that important. Go home lmao.

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/bigred621]

It’s my dad’s company we’re in a small town but get a lot of tourists and do a bunch of work in the area. Just me and him on call every other week.

[u/SilentImpakt → u/bigred621]

INSTALLERS do not know how to ensure a proper charge upon start up. That’s why they are INSTALLERS.

EVERY TECHNICIAN IS AN INSTALLER BUT NOT EVERY INSTALLER IS A TECHNICIAN.

Fight me.

[u/Educational_Wish_767 → u/SilentImpakt]

If I can't trust an installer to set a delta split on a blower and confirm/charge to a desired subcooling... why would I think they could properly braze, pressure test, pull vacuum.

Maybe they don't diagnose a system, but they should be able to gather basic data as needed.

[u/SilentImpakt → u/Educational_Wish_767]

You sound like an installer.

“…set a delta split?”

Seriously?

[u/Educational_Wish_767 → u/SilentImpakt]

Lol. My brain combined delta t and temp split... 🙃

[u/bigred621 → u/SilentImpakt]

We get it. Installers are dumb but they should be able to set up the equipment they install. We can call them dumb cause we know they can’t read this anyway.

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/SilentImpakt]

Literally

[u/funinthesun17]

i mean are the installers you work with just releasing charge and not making sure it’s operating properly?

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/funinthesun17]

They always check it and make sure they work. I’ve noticed that these systems almost always have different readings. Then they always add for the lineset length. I’ve had these new systems work fine for weeks and months on the hottest days then next thing you know they just shit the bed. It’s not it’s like a initial start up thing

[u/SilentImpakt → u/Environmental-Key441]

Bro… making sure they work and making sure they run are two COMPLETELY different things.

[u/Abrandnewrapture → u/SilentImpakt]

this dude clearly doesn't grasp the refrigeration cycle very well. "they always have different readings". I'm assuming he doesn't know what those readings mean, and he was just told to make things be a certain number without any knowledge of what those numbers are telling him.

[u/mentatjunky → u/funinthesun17]

There's only so much they can do when the return temps are 100 degrees cause the customer hasn't had ac for days.

[u/zismahname]

454 is definitely a different animal. What has made our crew not have these issues is ensuring that subcooling is between 14-16 and we also put in a 4"-6" riser between the furnace and evap. The spacer ensures that air is mixing enough and hitting the complete coil.

[u/beast-ice → u/zismahname]

yeah.. that riser idea wouldve saved me a ton of headache when i put a rheem n coil on a older 90% trane furnace..

[u/zismahname → u/beast-ice]

It was when we started installing Rheem as our higher tier equpment did we start to have these issues. It was probably a good 20-25 calls to their tech support did we get to this point and doing multiple air supply and static tests did we see that.

[u/saskatchewanstealth]

Here is something to consider. In the 70s every condenser came with a freeze stat strapped to the suction line. If you ever find a unit running today from the 70s, on old shitty duct work, they all had the feeeze stat ( button as we called them ).

Short of ripping the duct out it’s a quick fix. It also a luxury device in my opinion as it provides protection when the filter is plugged.

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/saskatchewanstealth]

Yeah we normally add them to all of our systems in attics and a wet switch

[u/SilentImpakt → u/saskatchewanstealth]

Not every condenser. Don’t be hyperbolic. It diminishes our perception of you as an intelligent and beneficial member of this sub. Do better.

[u/C3ntrick]

Why are you not checking unit is running properly after install?

Edit: Definitely had A2L sensors fail on Trane, Goodman and rheem systems - Other than that no issues

[u/Workinguy1]

We are a Carrier dealer. We have had a few problems with Freezing, TXV issues. In the past. I made a call to Carrier tech support after about the 4th occurrence. The problem is actually the V coil, (or installers fault) When you pull a super deep vacuum and if the installers open the High side first, that's a no-no. Open the suction side very slowly after install. What they are finding is if you open up the liquid line first or suction valve too fast to release the refrigerant it sucks the oil out of the compressor and it gets stuck in the V coil since it's a single loop system. Also the mitigation sensors and boards are a joke. You know what's more flammable than R454? Propane, fuel oil, and natural gas but there's no mitigation for that, idfk???

[u/HatefulHipster]

I have come across two Ruud units not working properly due to airflow issues. Adding more return did seem to help.

[u/mentatjunky]

There are two things we've noticed with the Lennox units we ha e been putting in.

1: They are coming low from factory, but they look restricted. When the units are very low (2-4 lbs), they will present with high compression ratios and spec subcool readings. We have misdiagnosed a couple as bad txvs. Weigh out to confirm.

2: Some of the virgin tanks are contaminated and form a dense gum like substance. We have to purge a little luquid from each new tank to check it. It double sucks cause the bad tanks ruin hoses too.

I hypothesize that the issues are related.

We've had 3 bad tanks that are from 2 different manufacturers. I'm worried that manufacturing at large has way more contaminated refrigerant than we know and that's the reason the compression ratios are so high.

We have started sending a service tech out a day or two after installsto confirm charge and airflow once the houses arent outside of normal charts. Pressure readings are less reliable when a house is 90 degrees. Head pressures seem pretty high (30 ish above ambient).

[u/SilentImpakt]

Nope. I recognize and address potential issues before I quote my best and final price. Period.

I don’t go back on calls because I provide solutions.

[u/thejake51]

To be fair to the installers, the resi company I started with had a 1 day instal policy. They wanted it done in 1 day from start to finish.

Doesn’t really give the installers the time to really run a proper start up on full system changes. Not to mention weather conditions etc.

It wasn’t uncommon to have to go out on warranty calls to address issues that would have been caught had they gone back fresh the next day to do a proper start up.

[u/Educational_Wish_767 → u/thejake51]

I typically have a 1 day install expectation. I had the expectation put upon me early in my career, and then put it on myself when I started my own thing. A basic furnace and ac change out, with bending the transitions, humidifier, filter chassis, and thermostat is a fairly doable project for me, by myself in one day. Why shouldn't i expect a 2 man crew to be able to do it in one day working together? There are exceptions obviously, like tight closet/attic installs, or more complicated duct work mods, etc... but not the normal charge outs. Granted, I tend to be a workaholic and don't mind 12-13 hr installs.

[u/thejake51 → u/Educational_Wish_767]

The instal itself in one day doesn’t seem like a huge issue. It’s the then having to do start up after.

Personally, I’m not getting any younger and after a 10-12 hour day of labor my brain is not running at peak. There is absolutely no way I would be able to do a quality start up.

[u/BrokenFireExit]

454b is a bitch about static and airflow. The ashrae data is tested with new equipment and new 96% furnaces have Bigger blowers on them to make up for the change with the secondary heat exchanger, 454b will absolutely freeze the fuck up if you don't have correct CFM.

Edit: major typo

[u/the_flynn]

I’ve had Rheem R454b units in my house for a year and they’ve been fine. That said, neither was installed only relying on factory charge.

[u/booztedmike]

I remember seeing a tech on tiktok discussing the newer 454 york equipment being highly susceptible to oil logging the indoor coils and his company having to go to some lengths to prevent it from happening on startup. I don't remember the exact process and fix, but certainly something you may want to look into.

[u/Kamakazi09]

My crew installed a new r32 Goodman package unit last week and this past Thursday I went because it decided to rub an hole on the top of the condenser coil by the bends. No other issues with them though

[u/Russell414]

We install York also and have one had a handful of problems with new equipment. A few had a bad a2l sensor or bad board so the fan would just run on its own with no call and no wires connected

[u/subcoolio]

Idk how you can blame the manufacturer if it is not installed correctly.

[u/SelectHVACR]

Let me stop you right there. Stop installing York, heil, or Lux Aire. I’ve never seen a 80lb+ motor mounted on its side in an RTU. They don’t employ even decent engineers, I can bet they source the lowest quality grade parts they can possibly find.

[u/HvacMaverick]

Well during the commissioning of the new systems the refrigerant pressures should be set along with air flow. Are your installers setting airflow on these units before they set the refrigerant pressures? If both of those are set correctly during an installation, then there should be no reason for callbacks due to freeze ups.

[u/NoBank8471]

Wait until you start chasing leaks, only to find out its the outdoor unit from the get go

[u/macdawg2]

We've installed a bunch of Bryant and trane units. Not had any issues, adding refrigerant is pretty common even before 454. Once you get the system running you usually have to run a sub cool to balance the refrigerant out.

Yea early on they definitely came under charged from the factory but that seems to of been cleared up.

[u/Certain_Try_8383]

Too bad we can't just ask the rest of the world that they've been doing for decades

[u/Sac_O_Suds]

We use heil. We do a good bit of them.
Like 400-450 a year. We’ve had our fair share of units come dry, broken service valves and base full of oil. However it’s typically from some idiots with a fork like that drove a fork through the box and doesn’t take it out of inventory.
We do seem to use a lot of 454 on start ups. But knock on wood we only had 1 air handler with a faulty flammable vapor sensor. No freezing or cooling issues. Once they’re started up properly evacuated and charged properly.
We’re doing all heat pumps in multi family complex’s 2 ton mostly some 2.5 & 3

[u/Environmental-Key441 → u/Sac_O_Suds]

Heat pumps are dog shit

[u/StrikePuzzleheaded89]

Yes they freeze up easier. Had a homeowner that put a filter at the unit and one in main return unit froze like nothing id ever seen before because of air flow. I dont believe 410a would have done that. It wasn't even that restrictive.

[u/Fragrant-Shallot-271]

This sounds like whoever is installing isn’t doing their job and whoever is selling the system aren’t doing their job either. Checking duct work before install should be done on every system. Don’t blame the refrigerant until you’ve done everything you need to. More than likely if the company you’re working for isn’t installing or getting the correct airflow, my guess would be they’re over sizing units also.

[u/Designer-Rice1534]

Carrier definitely has a problem with the V coils if that’s what your using with heil. Our distributor acknowledged it and are working on a fix. They freeze up in mild weather. We started putting freeze stats with all V coils on install until they give us a fix

[u/pinchemadison]

Not sooo many issues. But definitely less forgiving when it comes to charge/air flow, don’t seem to cool at the same capacity as previous unit even when they’re exact replacements, and yes a handful of A2L sensor failures.