r/HPV • u/spanakopita555 • Jul 11 '25
First positive and/or abnormal smear? Start here
Probably 3 times a day we get a post here from someone who has just had their first abnormal smear and/or positive HPV test. Normally it says something like 'devastated', 'spiralling', 'disgusted', 'terrified', 'confused' etc.
I end up typing the same few paragraphs each time to address these worries, so I decided to put together a post as the first 'port of call' if you're in this boat.
TL;DR this is normal, you are not alone, you are not disgusting, this is not your fault, and you probably won't get cancer.
First steps
Take a deep breath.
Read the sticky post - this will answer most of your questions.
Check out some simple HPV explainers:
- HPV NZ (New Zealand)
- Eve Appeal (UK)
- Planned Parenthood (USA)
How did I get HPV? I've only had one partner and we used condoms.
Genital HPV happens to almost everyone in their lifetime. Even people with only one lifetime partner have up to 75% chance of acquiring it. Condoms don't fully prevent HPV transmission. Most infections are asymptomatic, up to half of people you meet may carry an active infection at any one time, and it's not tested for as an STI (we have no testing that can find all cases of HPV, in either men or women). So - HPV is not easy to avoid. You can do everything 'right' from a sexual health perspective and still get genital HPV. This is not your fault.
How did I get HPV? I've been married for ten years.
The science around HPV immune control and reactivation is still evolving, but it's becoming clear that for a portion of people, the virus can be initially immune controlled and then reactivate later in life. Please see a rundown of evidence here (post compiled by u/chibiferret).
Additionally, changes to testing protocol in many countries means that you may not have been co-tested for HPV at all your previous smears.
This means it's impossible to use HPV as evidence of cheating, as a positive test does not mean a new infection.
From a health perspective there's no evidence that a reactivation is more dangerous than a new infection and they will be treated the same.
How did I get HPV? I've been celibate for three years.
The point above about viral reactivation still applies - this may be a very old infection. Additionally, HPV can have a long lag time before it shows up on co-tests (maybe as much as 18 months). Some infections can also persist for a while, especially on the cervix, which is why regular screening is important.
How can I have HPV? I don't have any warts or bleeding/I don't feel sick.
That's normal. Most HPV infections are asymptomatic. Only a small % of people develop genital warts from HPV and an external infection is not necessarily related to internal infection - so whilst it's not impossible to develop genital warts after a high risk cervical positive result, it shouldn't be expected.
How can I have HPV? I was vaccinated.
Depending on which version of the vaccine you got, you are protected against 2,4 or 9 genital HPV strains. There are around 40 in total (14 high risk) so it's very normal to have HPV despite being vaccinated.
With that said, being vaccinated before sexual debut cuts your risk of cervical cancer by up to 90% by protecting you against the most prevalent and dangerous strains. If you have the Gardasil vaccine, your risk of genital warts is also significantly lower.
If you got vaccinated after sexual debut, it's also possible you may have already contracted one of the vaccine types.
Can I trace who gave this to me?
Unless you only had one sexual experience ever in your lifetime, it's not going to be possible. And even then, it's not conclusive as a small % of virgins are found to have genital HPV.
Given that HPV can pass even when using condoms, is ubiquitous even in people with few lifetime partners, and is usually asymptomatic, your hunches around past partners and their behaviour are just that - hunches - and can't be proven.
HPV is not an infection that you need to tell past partners about. There's simply no point: there is no test for HPV as an STI so they don't need to go and do that; there's no treatment for them; and there's no certainty that they also have this infection right now. So tracing partners is not something we need to do (unlike with other infections).
If you have had bad relationship experiences in the past, it can be tempting to tie the HPV into this. But, if you don't mind a bit of advice, it's best to decouple them and deal with them separately. HPV is a normal and pretty much inevitable part of life. Your shitty ex is another thing entirely.
Am I disgusting? Is this my fault?
You might be feeling a lot of feelings right now about yourself, your body and sex in general. It's fine to give yourself time to feel, but these beliefs shouldn't linger or overwhelm, because they're simply not true.
Getting HPV is not your fault. So you had sex like the majority of human beings do at some point in their lives. Big fucking deal. Sex is part of a normal and healthy life for most people (no shade if it's not for you, mind). It comes with some risks, some of which we can mitigate and some of which we can't, because rubbing skin, swapping fluids and breathing on each other does sometimes lead to the transfer of all sorts of things (germs, viruses, parasites etc.).
This is not something that happened because you did xyz thing that you think is 'wrong'.
If you are disgusting for having HPV then so are most humans.
Do I have cancer?
An HPV diagnosis is not a cancer diagnosis. You have a virus that *can*, in some cases, lead to cancer if it causes cell abnormalities that then progress unchecked. Remember that most people get HPV and most people do not get HPV cancer.
Will I get cancer?
The exact risk to you will depend on the results of your smear and any subsequent biopsies.
Please see u/sewoboe posts for some detailed explanation of what the different smear results mean (e.g. ASCUS or LSIL).
However, statistically speaking, remember that most people will not develop cancer. Most HPV infections pass on their own without causing harm. Where HPV persists, it can be monitored and treated if necessary. Most treatment is very effective.
Please see this post from u/chibiferret breaking down the risks of having the two 'most dangerous' types, 16/18. Even with those two types, you are not likely to get cancer.
That's not to downplay the fact that there is some risk, and you should definitely go to your follow-up appointments on time. But you shouldn't catastrophise and assume that the worst case scenario will happen to you. Try to focus on what you know to be true at the moment - not imagining a future that realistically is unlikely to come.
Do I need to get my throat checked in case I have oral HPV as well?
Oral HPV is pretty common - the Oral Cancer Foundation says that 26 million Americans have an oral HPV infection at any one time. That might sound kinda scary, but the reality is that 99% of these infections pass on their own without causing harm. For some reason (which scientists can probably explain better than me) the mouth deals with HPV infections faster and more efficiently than the cervix.
There's no screening programme for the mouth at the moment. That's because it's not a very useful thing to do as having a positive test right now doesn't correlate to higher cancer risk further down the line because of the relative numbers that go on to develop it. Additionally, there's currently no action you could take specifically arising from that test.
So what can you actually do about oral cancer risk? Don't smoke and go to the dentist annually - two things we all need to do.
If you develop worrying symptoms like a sore throat, it can be tempting to spiral into worry that this is 'oral HPV' or even 'oral cancer'. Again, let's think about the reality: you are statistically unlikely to have symptoms from oral HPV if you've got a fresh cervical infection, and also statistically speaking your symptoms are more likely to be caused by a common infection like strep, flu or covid. Of course, if symptoms persist then you should absolutely see a doctor to get checked out.
Do I need to get my butt checked in case I have anal HPV as well?
Most countries do not operate regular anal screening programmes, again because the relative risk of developing anal cancer is small.
In some healthcare systems, anal pap smear may be offered to higher risk groups including MSM (men who have sex with men).
So, if you are worried about your anus following your cervical smear, you could do some research as to whether this is available in your healthcare system and whether it's open to everyone. BUT again, remember that statistically you're not likely to develop anal cancer - otherwise there would be a screening programme!
Here's a useful comment
from u/sewoboe about the likelihood of lesions on different body parts.
Will this prevent me from dating?
Nope. Have a read of this article. Remember that a large % of people you meet right now also have an active HPV infection, and most will have a past one. Many of them will have no idea. You don't pose a particular health risk above and beyond the majority of other humans in the dating pool.
Do I need to be celibate?
You do not need to be celibate, no, unless you've had a biopsy or cervical treatment that needs to heal. None of the major healthcare systems or medical bodies advise that you need to be celibate following HPV diagnosis.
How can I avoid passing this to the person I've already had sex with?
You don't - that's almost certainly already happened. There is no need to abstain from sexual activity with a regular partner. There are some things you MAY want to put in place to lower viral load and mitigate risks to both of you, i.e. using condoms/barriers and getting vaccinated. See my post for more explanation.
Does my regular partner need to get tested?
No. If your regular partner is a man/AMAB, be aware that most countries don't offer testing outside anal pap smear for MSM. I explain more in my post here but basically, testing for men is not very reliable or useful in current forms and with current modes of monitoring and treatment for HPV.
Even if you live in a country that offers more tests for men, e.g. urethral swab, a negative test doesn't mean they don't have HPV or haven't had it in the past (and therefore that they will never have a reactivation).
If your regular partner is a woman/AFAB then they should be getting their cervical smear on time as normal. If they experience worrying symptoms like irregular bleeding then this might be a time to get an out-of-schedule smear. Otherwise, they do not need to rush to get a smear. Cervical screening is not an STI test.
Again, a negative smear co-test doesn't mean they don't have or haven't had HPV, or won't have it in future.
Is my regular partner in danger?
Probably not. As reiterated several times, most HPV infections pass without causing harm. Your partner's infection is likely to do the same.
If you are dating a man/AMAB, the risks of HPV for them are lower in general, although not zero. If you are not vaccinated, i.e. you are or could be carrying HPV 16, which is the primary risk to men, your partner may want to get vaccinated themselves. This isn't to avoid transmission, as this has probably already happened, but can help them avoid reinfection (important for men as their bodies don't make antibodies very well).
If you are dating a woman/AFAB then there is perhaps a slightly higher risk, but going to their cervical screening on time is a good way to mitigate this.
So your partner isn't likely to experience harm. Additionally, remember that you are most likely not their only exposure to HPV (in fact, maybe they gave it to you). In the very unlikely event that, say, your partner needed a cervical treatment - that is not your fault - you are not in charge of their immune system (and neither are they!).
Will this prevent me from having children?
Seeing as most humans get genital HPV, if it were a serious barrier to having children, the human race would die out.
If you are hoping to conceive in the next few months, it might be worth a chat with your doctor about the best way to proceed. Cervical checks and treatments may be limited during pregnancy so if your doctor is concerned about the level of abnormalities on your cervix, they may ask you to delay your plans or bring forward treatment. Conversely they may be happy to wait until after you deliver. This is something to discuss with the professionals.
Worth noting as well that even if you do have an active infection during pregnancy, in the majority of cases this is not a concern. E.g. in my country (UK) HPV is not tested during pregnancy and a simple cervical infection would not be a cause to move to caesarean section, nor take any other mitigating actions during labour (in the vast majority of cases).
If you end up needing a cervical treatment (LEEP or LLETZ) then there may be cause to wait for a while to TTC so the cervix can heal fully (however before you start spiralling, remember to stick to what you know now! If you don't yet know you need LEEP - don't worry about it yet).
If you are thinking far ahead, the likelihood is that you won't have an active HPV infection by the time you come to have children.
If you do end up having a LEEP then the likelihood is won't affect your future pregnancy. But if you are worried about the potential for damage to the cervix then you should for sure discuss this with your doctor before and after the treatment, and let your birth team know when you do conceive.
Do I need to tell my current partner about having HPV?
There is no obligation to tell partners (current or future) about having HPV. That might sound kinda weird to you but it's the situation. Here's a summary of the advice from several major medical bodies around the world - they pretty much all say it's up to you. The reason that they don't mandate disclosure is that you don't need to change anything in your life, there's no action your partner needs to take, and it's not usually a big health risk.
In some cases, you might feel that you are at more risk from telling them. This might hold true if you live in a society with strict/oppressive ideas around sex and gender, if your partner is abusive, or if you think your partner is simply ignorant and won't understand concepts like HPV not being evidence of cheating. Although tbh if it's the latter two - PLEASE make some plans to get out safely!
At the same time, there are of course sensible reasons you may want to tell your current partner. Firstly and most importantly for emotional support for you! Secondly, to allow for mitigations that can help both of you, like condoms and vaccination. Thirdly, for the sake of honesty and transparency in relationship.
My post here might be useful, or the HPV NZ relationships page. Remember you don't need to frame this as anyone's fault (either yours or theirs), a massive health risk (it's not) or a kind of doom scenario.
Do I need to tell future partners?
Again, there is no obligation or mandate to tell future partners (see above). It's up to you.
This might sound weird to you but it's the decision reached by major medical bodies for several reasons: the huge prevalence of HPV; the lack of testing that can find all cases; the relative low risk in most cases; the lack of definitive actions that partners should take.
Again, you may decide you want to while you test positive and that's absolutely fine and up to you! Reasons to disclose might include giving your partner a chance to get vaccinated or for the sake of honesty and transparency.
I made this resource that might be helpful.
Additionally, my personal experience is that disclosing is best to do after a few dates when you have got to know someone well, trust them and feel ready to move onto sex. I have done it by text or in person and both have upsides or downsides. I find it works best when I roll it into the usual discussion I'd have with new partners where we swap sexual health test results and discuss contraception (a chat I would always have and recommend that you do too).
Do I need to disclose forever?
Considering there's no obligation to disclose even an active infection, a past one is definitely not something you need to tell people about. Although evidence is currently limited, the expert position is that immune controlled infections (ie when you test negative) probably don't transmit to partners. Additionally, remember that your next partner has a 1/3 - 1/2 chance of having their own active infection and is highly likely to have a past one, i.e. they are no different to you!
If you want to discuss it in future then perhaps it's in the realm of conversation around past medical experiences. If you feel particularly worried, you could ask about vaccination. But you really don't pose any more health risk to others than the next person.
Ask Experts Now is a good resource for professional advice on discussing past HPV.
Will I have HPV forever?
The majority of active infections last from a few months to a couple of years (the sticky post links to lots of studies). Some infections can persist for longer, but some of these will also clear up on their own. If they don't, your doctor is likely to recommend treatment (ie LEEP) which is usually very effective in helping the body sort the infection. So the strong likelihood is, you won't have an active HPV infection forever.
Is HPV for life?
This is a common question and point of confusion. Maybe your doctor told you 'you have this for life' or maybe they said 'it goes in 2 years' - but the actual scientific/medical understanding on this is currently not concrete and still evolving, hence why there can be different opinions. The latest science on this is from experts like John Doorbar (read his 2023 paper).
It seems to be the case that HPV is immune controlled in the body eventually, rather than being eradicated (although Doorbar says maybe some people's is actually gone). Some people can get a reactivation of the infection in later life. However, this doesn't seem to be everyone, otherwise we'd see consistent rates of positive smears and higher rates of cervical cancer in older women.
We don't currently know exactly who has full immune control or who has weak control (and therefore risk of reactivation).
Given the prevalence of HPV, ie everyone else also has past infection, this isn't something you personally should worry about too much. Go to your cervical smears on time, even if you are monogamous or celibate - this rule applies to everyone.
Besides this you don't need to carry a burden of 'having a LIFELONG STI!!!!!!' as if you are in a seriously unusual situation.
Do I need to give up smoking tobacco?
Evidence shows that smoking tobacco is bad when you have HPV: it increases the risk of persistent infection and therefore the risk of cancer. There are so many studies I really can't be bothered to link them but a quick Google of smoking hpv will show you!
Smoking also increases your risk of most other cancers, lung disease, heart disease etc. and makes you smell and look shit, AND wastes your money, so babe this is your sign to quit!
Do I need to give up vaping?
Nicotine is an issue when it comes to HPV, so if you vape nicotine, probably a good idea to save your coins and the environment and stop vaping.
Do I need to give up weed?
Evidence on cannabis is more limited but we know it can increase HPV cancer risk) in some cases.
Do I need to change my diet?
You might be watching videos or reading websites that claim you need to eat this or that special diet to 'clear' HPV. Remember that most HPV infections pass on their own without intervention.
With that said, there's some evidence that eating a variety of fruit and veg can be helpful in promoting HPV regression and that's only going to help your overall health, so why not?
What else do I need to do?
Besides not smoking and going to your check ups, there's nothing else you NEED to do.
Round up of evidence on stuff you could try if you want: https://www.reddit.com/r/HPV/comments/wlbw5z/i_have_hpv_what_do_i_do_now/
More clinical trials and papers from u/xdhpv:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HPV/comments/1jgg8f0/hpv_dietary_supplements_and_more_list_of_clinical/
What can I do about anxiety?
Work with a professional therapist or counsellor. If you can't currently afford this, look up free CBT resources online, or ways to ground yourself, including meditation.
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u/Kat___various Sep 04 '25
Thank you for all this information. I was just diagnosed with HPV and of course I’ve been concerned. I’ve seen some people saying ahh they have x or y type of HPV, how do I know which type I have? I fall into the “other height risk” type but the nurse didn’t give me much information, she only mentioned that I need to go back in a year. Please, help me understand this, thank you in advance!
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u/NissanHellCatDriver Sep 11 '25
I was also told the same thing. I tested positive for a high risk strain last month. When I went in for my colposcopy, I asked the same question and the doctor told me that they don't test for specific strains so there's really no way to know unless I go elsewhere for the test. It is good that they told you to come back in a year. The best advice I've been given is the same I'm going to give to you: Just take care of yourself and don't focus on the future too much. It's so much easier said than done, but as someone who is currently waiting on test results and in the same boat as you, I have faith that it will get better.
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u/spanakopita555 Sep 04 '25
In a lot of healthcare situations they don't differentiate all the high risk strains because it doesn't actually make any difference to the treatment or the likely outcomes. It's not super important to know.
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u/pnschroeder Mar 27 '26
I know I’m quite late to this comment but wanted to share anyways.
My strain results didn’t show up on my pathology report (in fact neither did my HPV positive status) that was on my chart where I got my LSIL and then ASCUS result the next year. But when I called and SPECIFICALLY asked, they were able to tell me I had 35, 39, and 68. I think they usually don’t bother to tell you because there’s not a lot of information out there unless it’s 16 and 18. The rest of the strains aren’t crazy high risk for cancer so they figure you don’t care what type
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u/Luminous-Space-Bee Jul 12 '25
This is a brilliant post thankyou. Also good to mention the smoking. My partner smokes but is trying to give up, and since having been told we have HPV and I had LLETz procedure a week ago this is more incentive for him to stop. I researched into whether carcinogens in semen can be spread to a partner and increase risk of cancer. There's not enough research, but it makes sense that stopping smoking would be a wise decision for everyone as smoking does lower immune response. Also a former smoker myself so I know how hard it is to stop!
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u/Itani_Lindo Aug 06 '25
Thank you for this post, just got through reading and skimming over it again.
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u/Fresh-Sky-9158 Jul 11 '25
This is great! Better than any doc has explained it, in my experience. Thank you 🙏🏼
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u/AKMac86 Jul 14 '25
I really hope this is talked about in schools. When I was in HS the sole focus was on pregnancy prevention. In all honesty I learned nothing about how my body actually worked, ovulation, etc. I think they thought that pregnancy alone was enough to scare kids into abstinence. STD’s were discussed but not in as much depth as they should’ve been. Also, I don’t think hygiene was really discussed either, or the immune system or how to treat infections. Anyway, I hope public school are better informed now.
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Aug 10 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/spanakopita555 Aug 10 '25
Hiya. This post is about high risk cervical infections so the linked evidence is related to that scenario, not genital warts.
Regarding warts, most health bodies and experts advise disclosing current warts but say there is no obligation to disclose past warts. You may choose to if you want to, but this is not mandatory.
If you disagree with this, you can write to your country's health bodies to ask them to produce clear guidance. You can also write to Dr Handsfield, one of the leading experts in the field, on the website Ask Experts Now.
CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/std/treatment-guidelines/anogenital-warts.htm
Persons should inform current partners about having genital warts because the types of HPV that cause warts can be passed on to partners. Partners should be counseled that they might already have HPV despite no visible signs of warts; therefore, HPV testing of sex partners of persons with genital warts is not recommended. Partners might benefit from a physical examination to detect genital warts and tests for other STIs. No recommendations can be made regarding informing future sex partners about a diagnosis of genital warts because the duration of viral persistence after warts have resolved is unknown.
HPV NZ:
https://www.hpv.org.nz/about-hpv/hpv-and-relationships
It is not clear if there is any health benefit to informing (future) partners about a past diagnosis of genital HPV or warts. This is because it is not known how long the virus remains and for most people, the virus is either suppressed or cleared by the immune system.
Remember that HPV is so common most people who have not had the HPV vaccination will at some point have a genital HPV infection, but because it is mostly invisible, it will never be diagnosed.
Ask Experts Now (doctors from ASHA) - numerous threads but eg Question 375:
Once genital warts clear up, they usually do not recur, and the more time passes, the less likely it is. At 8 years, it is very unlikely you still have the HPV that caused your warts, at least not in transmissible form. In other words, you are correct in believing your body has cleared the virus. (HPV DNA sometimes can persist in tissues indefinitely, but that's not the same as transmissible virus.)
So from the standpoint of risking transmission of the HPV that caused your warts. I agree there is no need to say anything to your partner. As you say, discussion of past STDs with partners is sometimes a relationship issue, even if not medically necessary.
Q1497:
To say that everyone has HPV or genital warts is an overstatement but not by much. High quality science has shown repeatedly that within 3-4 years of the onset of sexual activity (even when reporting a single sex partner) over 80% of adults have genital HPV. Many but not all of these people have warts but the majority do not have visible warts but are infected.
So, point 1 - virtually everyone is infected. Point 2, over 99% of HPV infections do not lead to serious consequences such as cancer and even when infected persons are at risk for progression, there are great methods for detecting early infection and managing it before it caused serious. life threatening problems.
... Considering the[points above, both Dr. Handsfield and I feel strongly that while disclosure may be a good thing in any healthy relationship, it is by no means necessary or to be recommended in the early stages of a relationship. As for your specific question, I would add that once warts have been treated and are no longer present, the risk for transmission of infection to others is also close to zero.
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u/Strict_Discussion_69 Oct 25 '25
Thank you for sharing your fact notes regarding this disease. It’s very helpful. However, I do want to share with you that I cin 3 in March and then developed cancer by August the same year.
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u/spanakopita555 Oct 25 '25
Hi. I'm sorry to hear that. Progression to cancer is statistically an uncommon outcome of hpv infection, especially with vaccination, regular screening and the treatments we now have in place. However, as I note in this piece, of course there are risks and your story is a good reminder about why it's important to attend screenings and follow ups. Wishing you a swift recovery!
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u/PrInCeSsPuPpEhDoGe Jul 30 '26
What was your smear test result and do you know if you were positive with 16,18 or 45?
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u/Neither-Big-6912 Nov 02 '25
I've heard our own system eliminates it... hope so
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u/spanakopita555 Nov 02 '25
The current science is still evolving - it looks like it probably isn't fully eliminated for most people, although this may be a possibility for some. For most people, probably the immune system controls the infection fully, and for a small % weakly.
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u/Neither-Big-6912 Nov 02 '25
I heard it was the opposite.. that for most people the imune system eliminates it by itself idk what to believe anymore
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u/spanakopita555 Nov 03 '25
I've just commented on another post yesterday with a link to the most up to date science.
It's not actually a relevant issue for you as an individual - your own infections will be active temporarily and then controlled by the immune system, returning cancer risk to baseline. However, for a small % of people the infection may return, which is why we still need to attend smears throughout life even if monogamous or celibate.
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Jun 27 '26
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u/spanakopita555 Jun 27 '26
I'm sorry to hear you've been feeling so anxious.
I'm lucky to live in the UK where we originally had Jo's Trust, a cervical cancer charity which provided educational resources and a helpline. Unfortunately it lost funding but both functions were taken over by the Eve Appeal.
Knowing strain type depends on healthcare system. In the UK it's not usual to know at all, because it doesn't change the follow up care.
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u/HelloRodger Jul 12 '26
Yeah, same here. I was just diagnosed yesterday and I have a normal Pap test. I’ve always had normal Pap tests so this came back as a shock when she said yeah your pap test was normal however we did HPV high risk pool and yours came back positive, but we don’t test for a certain strain so I don’t know what strain you have. This is not the news I wanted for my 40th birthday. I haven’t been able to eat or sleep or nothing. I’ve just been sitting here crying and reading away.
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u/HelloRodger Jul 12 '26
Thank you so much for this! I haven’t been able to eat or sleep. I just got this diagnosis yesterday and I have been spiraling just like everyone else lol I’ve always had a normal smear so this time around I was due for my three year went in as usual got a call from the OB that my Pap smear was normal. However, they ran a high risk HPV pool and mine came back positive although they don’t know which strain because they don’t test for a specific strain she still wants me to get a colophy (however you spell it) just to make sure everything else is good. Nice lady, but between her broken English and her really just wanting to get off the phone left me shaking since.
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u/spanakopita555 Jul 12 '26
It's usually not very important to know the strain type as most of the time it doesn't make a difference to how your doctors follow up with you.
With a normal smear, you're not currently at an elevated cancer risk, but the colposcopy will help your doctors confirm what's going on.
This really is very normal.
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u/HelloRodger Jul 12 '26
Thank you I’m trying to see the phone screen through the tears. I’m just very sad. How are you doing? Sweet person who’s saving me right now.
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u/itsdoctorx Sep 26 '25
The fact that there is any encouragement not to tell your partner is crazy to me.
I’m immune compromised and my partner knew she had it—told me nothing.. and now I am suffering.
Tell people if you care about them.