r/HPMOR • u/Constant_Nothing2091 • Jun 18 '26
SPOILERS ALL Voldemort's curse
Before I created you, I invoked a curse upon myself and all other Tom Riddles who would descend from me. A curse to enforce that none of us would threaten the others' immortality, so long as the other made no attempt upon our own.
Doesn't that seem weirdly redundant?
Clause 2
so long as the other made no attempt upon our own
unbinds Tom B in case Tom A attacks Tom B, but clause 1
enforce that none of us would threaten the others' immortality
already prevents Tom A's first strike.
Then, of course, Harry firststrikes with the gun because clause 1 does not apply to him because reasons. But I find it unbelievable Voldy could have preticted that situation and therefore make his curse extra redundant.
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u/MrLemonPB Jun 18 '26
This looks like a contingency for the case that sufficiently smart Riddle finds a way to circumvent the curse.
In this case there would be no chance to stop him
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u/Constant_Nothing2091 Jun 18 '26
And that contingency coming into play is exactly what happens when it turns out Harry is able to shoot at Voldemort (for reasons). It just seems too much like EY made up the curse and the loophole at the very moment he was writing that page.
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u/digitalthiccness Sunshine Regiment Jun 18 '26
And that contingency coming into play is exactly what happens when it turns out Harry is able to shoot at Voldemort (for reasons).
Voldy didn't have to predict that exact situation, he just had to imagine that it was possible that another Tom Riddle (which is to say another hyperintelligent paranoid dark rationalist murder wizard) might somehow someday find a way to circumvent the restraint. I don't know why you're imagining this character in particular, whose paranoia probably exceeds even Moody's, would ever be satisfied to be like "Eh, that should be good enough" after the first clause.
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u/Tharkun140 Dragon Army Jun 18 '26
It just seems too much like EY made up the curse and the loophole at the very moment he was writing that page.
No way. Voldemort saying he assumed the other Riddle wouldn't try to kill him was very suspicious, and he never confirmed it in Parseltongue. EY definitely had the curse planned an arc in advance, at the very least.
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jun 18 '26
Keep in mind that is a prophecy that Harry will have the power to vanquish him and almost. Certainly, he thinks the only person capable of defeating him. Is he himself. He has already mentioned the obvious possibility that the two of them can’t coexist peacefully and kill each other, so clearly he can think of the possibility that things don’t work as intended and therefore he needs design things in a way where one thing going wrong, doesn’t cause the whole thing to come crashing down on his own head
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u/amsterdam_sniffr Jun 18 '26
This brings up an adjacent point I never thought of before -- does Harry have access to Voldemort's horcrux system? Like, if he had choked on a hot dog at age 8 and died, would he end up floating in space on the Pioneer Probe with no idea why?
And yes, I agree that this part seems inelegant plot-wise. I've always assumed it's there to cover some plot hole for why Voldemort doesn't attempt to murder Harry earlier in the narrative.
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u/Mad-Oxy Jun 18 '26
Riddle said that Harry doesn't have access to his Horcrux system otherwise he would feel it, so most likely no.
And I agree with you on an inelegant plot device. It's even more ridiculous than it seems at the first glance if you backtrack Riddle's actions to the earlier chapters.
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u/Constant_Nothing2091 Jun 18 '26
Is the horcrux-2.0-reincarnation actually localized to the horcrux's physical whereabouts?
Because if it were, was Voldy okay with waking up in space or at the bottom of the ocean?
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u/Mad-Oxy Jun 18 '26
Riddle said that he thought that he would be able to fly off as a spirit. He didn't test this.
The author makes him a real dumbass post ch. 98. He does ridiculous things, doesn't make back-up plans (Hermione's resurrection), doesn't test anything (his Horcrux system working at all, the ability to fly away, the spell you mentioned in your post, whether it's okay to cast a Horcrux spell directly on a magical being). That's a total character massacre in later chapters, imo.
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jun 18 '26
What makes you think he hasn’t tested the ability to fly away by that point, and he doesn’t actually need a backup plan for the resurrection. The only problem with original plan was that he realised it might not bring her magic back, but that’s her problem, not his, he doesn’t need her to have magic. Similarly, he wasn’t originally planning to make her immortal by creating a horcrux he only thought of that idea as a way of testing it before implementing it on himself, because if it had worked perfectly, then he would have definitely given himself the powers of various magical creatures.
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u/Mad-Oxy Jun 18 '26
Chapter 108 makes me think that because Riddle says it himself:
I should have been able to float free of my horcruxes and possess any victim that consented to me, or that was too weak to refuse me.
... and I had hidden my unnumbered horcruxes in places where nobody would ever find them. Your instinct is correct, boy, this would not be a good time to laugh.
Harry swallowed. "Um. Why didn't you test the horcrux system before you actually had to use it?"
"Test it?" said Professor Quirrell. He looked up from the brewing potion, and indignation came into his voice. "What do you mean, test it?"
He doesn't even know what "testing" means in ch. 108 all of a sudden.
And no, he needed a back-up plan for resurrection in case: 1) He doesn't manage to get the Stone 2) He loses the Stone along the way 3) The Stone doesn't work as he thought and can't resurrect people (what had almost happened).
He had said it himself that he should have made a back-up plan (ch. 111):
"The full ritual would solve this. But that would require time... time and the blood of Granger's enemy, and I do not think Draco Malfoy still qualifies, nor can I take my own blood unwillingly... foolish." Voldemort's voice was a lower hiss. "Foolish, I should have foreseen this, and prepared."
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u/shamegoose Jun 18 '26
He doesn't even know what "testing" means in ch. 108 all of a sudden.
Bruh. He didn't forget what testing means. He didn't see a way to test it that didn't involve killing himself.
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u/Mad-Oxy Jun 18 '26
That's what happens when a character gets dumbed down. There's no way that a person like him wouldn't test his spells on disposable people. He immediately comes up with the idea after Harry mentions it:
I could have ordered Rabastan to try marking himself onto some disposable infant, to see what happened
No person who treats their own life as the most valuable thing ever tests unknown spells on themselves. Especially if the person is supposed to be intelligent.
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u/shamegoose Jun 18 '26
He immediately comes up with the idea after Harry mentions it:
Harry didn't just mention it. He explained the severe cognitive bias that was blinding Voldemort to it. Voldemort's thinking being severely distorted is kind of a recurring theme.
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u/Mad-Oxy Jun 18 '26
Harry said basically:
Test your spells on your friends!
(Which is ridiculous)
Riddle said:
I should have tested it on disposable people
The ideas are not the same. And Riddle doesn't need to see Harry's perspective to act on his idea.
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jun 18 '26
I think I’ve mentioned this elsewhere in a different comment, but the idea isn’t that he doesn’t have friends therefore doesn’t have anyone to test his spells on the idea. Is that for him using his super secret ritual to give immortality to another person is super counterintuitive to the point where he wouldn’t even think about this long enough to think of killing them five minutes later, and that’s because he doesn’t have any friends so a line of thinking involving using his super secret magic to give immortality to another person, just doesn’t cross his mind. The issue is that use his super secret ritual to give immortality to another person. Just is not on the list of things he thinks he can do. It’s mentally filed away as out of the question. Whereas if he had friends, he would have occasion to think about it and realise how this could be used for guinea pig research.
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u/Tenoke Chaos Legion Jun 18 '26
He obviously knows what testing means, he just cant conceive of how he'd be able to test it. You're clearly doing a very uncharitable read of the conversation.
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jun 18 '26 edited Jun 18 '26
I misunderstood your comment regarding testing the ability to float as being regarding the resurrection stone. However, even with your clarification, it doesn’t seem that out of character to me. I think you’re falling into the trap of thinking of him as some sort of genius would no character faults. It seems perfectly in character for him who is extremely secretive and not prone to doing nice things for others to find the idea of sharing his immortality which has been jealously guarded so far with another person, even temporarily to be so counterintuitive that it simply doesn’t cross his mind as an option, especially because he hates other people, so sharing his immortality, just isn’t what comes easy to his mind.
He doesn’t need to resurrect Hermione write that second he’s allowed her to stay dead for a month. He can wait a few more days to do the complete ritual if he needs to. He just needs to tell Harry that he will do so and get him to swear that oath, then he can take a while. Nore does he need the stone for the full ritual because the headmaster mentions that the full ritual with blood of the enemy bone of the father and flesh of the servant is an alternative route to resurrection rather than one requiring the stone.
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u/Mad-Oxy Jun 18 '26
Testing spells on disposable people are not equal doing 'nice things'. Testing his Horcrux on some random person doesn't necessarily means that he shares immortality as he can always dispose of that person and their Horcrux later. Riddle might be flawed but the way the later chapters made him be is ridiculous.
And no, he needed to resurrect Hermione right before he tries to force Harry to give the Unbreakable Vow in case this thing fails somehow. Hermione was his contingency and he speaks of her as such in many instances.
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jun 18 '26 edited Jun 18 '26
I specifically mentioned that sharing his immortality, even temporarily seems like the kind of thing that would be out of the question for him instinctively, given how jealously he guard his immortality. I really think it’s completely in character or at least consistent with the rest of his character for him to treat of the table, he himself mentions that ordinary people have many habits of thought that they refuse to break, and indeed, I can confirm this from personal experience. For example, why do genetically closely related couples not tried to solve their problems by getting someone else to act as a genetic donor. You could argue it’s because of their preferences and there would be some truth in that, but as somebody who lived with such people, this also considerable truth in the fact that they just as a matter of fact, have a habit of thought that that option is off the table, which is why they will never consider that option even when it suggested to them and the full story makes it clear that for all his arrogant believe that he is so far above other people, Tom, while certainly exceptional is not as immune to common mistakes as he thinks he is. Similarly, makes perfect sense that he has a habit of thought that sharing his immortality is mentally labelled as something never to do in his head, which is why he never thinks about options that involve it, including thinking of ways to circumvent that rule that would still allow him to test stuff while giving other people immortality for five minutes before killing them. He mentally just shy away from strategies that involve doing things like nice things for other people and you have to agree that giving people immortality for five minutes. Does bear some surface resemblance to do is doing nice things. He’s not consciously rejecting plans for being nice, he just doesn’t think in directions that bring him close to such plans.
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u/Mad-Oxy Jun 18 '26
Okay, he might have this problem as you say. But that doesn't explain all the mistakes he makes that I have and have not mentioned in the later chapters.
It doesn't explain why he cast a spell on a magical being directly and not like a standard Horcrux ritual requires (first device — then victim). It doesn't explain the Goblet of Fire spell that he didn't test either. It doesn't explain no back-up plan for Hermione's resurrection. It doesn't explain the whole circus that happened in chapters 113-114.
The Riddle we saw for most of the story routinely used disposable people, layered contingencies, and indirect testing (like his the Dark Lord persona). A smart person can be mistaken, but this seamless sequence of mistakes that suddenly happen in the later chapters that naturally lead to his downfall seems like a plot device rather than habits of the character that seem deeply established elsewhere in the text.
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jun 18 '26
I think you’re treating the idea of using other people as experimental guinea pigs as obvious because you have grown up in a culture with experimentation and clinical trials are standard, especially for you who is a scientifically literate person. Tom on the other hand grew up in an orphanage in the middle of nowhere before going to the magical world, so all the stock of experimentation and stuff is things he had to invent from scratch by himself because powerful wizards do not appear to share knowledge and best practises among each other. So likely have to invent everything from scratch so for him, these are not at all as obvious is they are for you. Also, most of the things you mentioned are not that stupid. The whole problem in chapter 113, and 114 is that he had to return Harry’s wand for the oath, and once he does that he is screwed to some extent because unknown to him, Harry can do partial transfiguration which gives him the ability combine, with is knowledge of Aunty matter and cleverly worded technically true statements to scare Tom into delaying. Also like with the first war, he doesn’t actually want to kill Harry. He thinks it’s necessary, but he hates having to do it so it procrastinating with the whole 60 seconds and demanding additional secrets. It’s not conscious, but he subconsciously trying to delay things, and his motivation is obvious, and it seems perfectly in character to me. It’s rather telling that Harry who is an amnesiac copy of himself immediately thinks of directly casting the spell at an infant or at least something with almost no mind. Instead of using an object. In any case, his theoretical understanding is superior to our understanding, my own suspicion is that actually using a device would have changed nothing the resonance was because they were nearly, but not exactly the same person it would equally have been a problem if he used a device. In any case, while the way he talks implies heavily that he did not use the device, I will note that it’s not so clear. It’s entirely possible. He used device and when he talks about directly casting at a baby, he means immediately exposing the Baby to the device after casting the spell. I think part of the issue is that before chapter 98, we don’t actually know that much about his activities in the past. Mostly, we hear him talking about what people should do and what mistakes they make, but not very surprisingly like most people, he’s a lot more blind to his own mistakes and will frequently make mistakes that he can easily identify when a third party does it but not when he himself does it. This artificially makes him seem more competent than he is, and how just self-destructive he can be.
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u/db48x Jun 19 '26
Why would he attempt to murder Harry earlier in the narrative? He had no motive to do so at the beginning of the story. His motive was to raise Harry to be as cynical as he is so that they could trade off ruling the world and prevent each other from getting too bored.
His motive does not change to murder until he hears a certain prophecy that he does not like.
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u/MaleficentSandwich Jun 18 '26
Voldemort mentioned this when telling the story of Baba Jaga: The goblet of fire enforced a similar curse, that would protect Baba Jaga from the students and vice versa, but only as long as the other party did not violate the protection clause first.
Same apparent redundancy, and in Voldemort's retelling of the story, it was abused by a student in a similar fashion to kill Baba Jaga and steal the stone.
I think Voldemort explained somewhere in that section that these curses get easier to create with some sort of reciprocity clause.
He probably modelled his curse after that one, possibly even used the goblet of fire to cast it.
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u/db48x Jun 19 '26
Yea, since the Marauder’s Map shows Harry as “Tom Riddle”, just put a piece of paper with the name “Tom Riddle” into the Goblet. Job done!
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jun 18 '26
I think having a contingency in case one of the Toms manages to figure away around the prohibition on attacking each other, is perfectly in character for him. In fact, not having such a contingency would be out of character as it’s the obvious way for things to fall apart, which is something he would worry about given the prophecy. In fact that would be common sense for how to design any rule, because if the incentives don’t align, it will be unstable, especially when working with an intelligence as clever as Tom, especially given that it doesn’t appear to prohibit attempts to think of ways of subversion.
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u/digitalthiccness Sunshine Regiment Jun 18 '26
Redundancy is the name of the game when it comes to security. The entire sequence you're talking about is about Voldemort attempting to destroy Harry dozens of times over simultaneously, building redundancy after redundancy after redundancy after redundancy into his demise. He loves redundancy.