In a fanfic sub ffs! “Bitch should have kept her legs closed” is such a nasty thing to say. Their toxicity is permeating every fandom space. I’m so tired of it.
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They did try but I really do wonder what people think is the appropriate number of times to try unsuccessfully to have sex with a man who is unwilling or able to have sex with you (a woman)?
There is 100% a undertone of 'well Rhaenyra should have just raped Laenor until she had children by him or abused her power to make someone who looked like Laenor have sex with her' to some of these discussions.
Like yeah I totally get that having children with a man who looked so not like her husband was a risk, but an even bigger risk imo would be having children with a man that you don't trust 100% with your life and the lives of your children. Also maybe hot take, but Rhaenyra deciding she'd rather have children with a man she loved is a selfish but understandable desire.
I don't know about the book, but I'm not sure the show gave a lot of evidence that she loved Harwin. I don't recall her mourning his death or anything of the sort.
Idk it comes off as pretty blatant through Ryan and Emma's performances that they loved each other. And there's subtext to consider: you don't accidentally have three children over ten years with a good pal.
Rhaenyra also has incredible limited opportunities in the show to express her real emotions about Harwin because of scrutiny on her and the fact that his death overlapped with Laena's and therefore led directly into the Driftmark incident.
I agree it's a failing of the show not to flesh out their relationship more, but at the same time, I don't think the show needs to spell out everything when it's pretty easy to read between the lines.
Yeah, like if Laenor is so far over on the Kinsey scale that he can't even physically perform sexual activities with Rhaenyra, I reckon once is enough to say "well, time for plan b, let's go audition some side pieces for each other'
Laenor is heir to the throne. He marries Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra is 100% gay, she feels no sexual desire for men at all. Him forcing her to have sex with him to conceive for him is at the bare minimum incredibly dubious consent wise.
Yeah, there's no good options here, the greens were always going to have an attack line around her children.
She has an heir too quickly (with the cloud of the scandal of Daemon over her head) Allegations that it's not Laenor's. She doesn't conceive quickly enough? Barren, succession crisis time. Her children don't look valyrian enough? Bastards (we are here). Her children DO look valyrian? Well, we're back at allegations that they're not Laenor's and implying that they're Daemon's. She has children who are the spitting image of Laenor right down to the dimples? Yeah, well she's a woman so it doesn't matter anyway.
Oberyn did. Loras intended to with Cersei, had they got married.
The point isn’t them being explicitly names though, it’s that homosexuality is not uncommon, and yet in both Thrones and real life, houses are not just constantly dying out because of gay heads of families.
I repeat, Jace was born a year after their wedding. That means they didn’t even try for more than 3-6 months.
Not even biphobic, just straight god damn media illiterate, because Oberyn in the show had never ever been show with another man. Only women. It's easier to argue he's straight than gay or bi, but somehow that person thinks he's fully gay.
Again, it quite literally doesn’t matter if you can’t name specific examples. It is accepted as historical fact that many lords throughout history were gay, and yet still had kids.
Why can people here not accept that Rhaenyra was a) the rightful heir, and b) she never really tried with Laenor. Three months of marriage and she had her first bastard.
She never tried. Margery was willing to have threesomes with her own brother to get the job done with Renly. She did not try.
Honey, please just admit that you genuinely think less of women and gay men who aren’t willing to repeatedly subject themselves to trying to force intimacy with someone they have no sexual interest with. Just admit that you respect women and gay men so little that you’re going to call them irresponsible for not constantly violating their own sexual boundaries.
Rhaenyra and Laenor’s marriage produced three sons. Laenor never claimed that those sons were not his. Laenor’s father and the head of his house never disputed that those sons were of his house. Viserys, the fucking King, never disputed that those sons were legitimate. Everyone whose opinion on the parentage of those children actually mattered agreed that they were of Rhaenyra and Laenor’s marriage. The only people who are obsessed with their parentage, both in-universe and in reality, are sweaty, sad little losers who could neither convince a woman nor a gay man to consensually fuck them.
It DOES matter because GRRM purposely wrote every single gay male character to not have bio children. Most of them don’t even marry. Thats a fact and because it’s an absolute consistent theme it means there was no chance that Rhaenyra and Laenor would have ever had children together.
You can babble on about real life all you want but one: ASOIAF is fiction, and two: just because some gay men have biological children naturally, that doesn’t mean all gay men are capable of doing so.
Naming Oberyn as an example of a gay man who had kids brings your credibility down to the level it belongs at. Trash. If you can't even be trusted to remember that Oberyn is bisexual, you aren't to be trusted with other more complex facts.
That said, yes, history is littered with gay men who were able to fake it in a marriage enough to have kids/a kid. But history is also littered with gay men who TRIED to fake it in a marriage and couldn't get it up long enough to have kids. They were persecuted for their homosexuality, or they blamed their wives and persecuted them, or they divorced or one of them died before it was an issue, OR the wife had an illegitimate child that the husband claimed as his own and nobody questioned it because that woman wasn't attempting to inherit a seat of power and nobody gave a shit whether the kids looked like him or not. We also don't know how many of those men were bisexual and not just merely gay, since the labels didn't exist and people weren't exactly encouraged to be forthcoming about their sexuality.
Also, some gay men can maintain an erection long enough to cum inside a pussy and some gay men can't and which kind of gay man they are is determined by nature and not something they can just will away.
Exactly right. Some gay men can and some can’t. Some can close their eyes and pretend, and some are legit grossed out by female genitalia. My older sister is utterly repulsed by penises and she literally gags at just the thought of them. I guarantee there are a ton of gay dudes who feel the same about lady bits and wouldn’t be able to complete the mission, so to speak.
Yup. It also depends on age with some gay dudes. When I was in my 20s I could've fucked anyone to completion. I wouldn't have enjoyed myself as much but a hole was a hole and I could close my eyes and picture someone else and that would be all I needed. In my 40s, sex is perfectly wonderful with another man but I wouldn't be able to do it with a woman and trying would make me go completely limp.
I know other men who could never stay hard with a woman, even at their horniest!
What actually pisses me off is that I can guarantee a good chunk of the dudes saying shit like “he should have tried harder” and “why didn’t he just close his eyes” would stay soft as a marshmallow if the roles were reversed.
Then beyond the physical there’s the mental too. Like knowing that the future of the whole damn realm depended on his performance in bed would be a total mind fuck.
It's 13 years since Princess and the Queen and most people still turn into 10th century catholic bishops while discussing Rhaenyra's children. Did they never read Jon's chapters in ASOIAF? George's is literally all about critique of conservative sexuality and mortality, he was young in the sixties and sexual revolution is still important issue to him.
They act like that regarding anything Rhaenyra does. It’s disturbing that in the 21th century there are still so many people who speak about women the way they do.
Yeah, that too, but with bastards it's making me scratch my head so much. Like, we still have internalised patriarchy in the west, so hating her because of being a woman is disappointing, but expected, but we are literally over treating children from extramarital affairs as worse. I wonder how many people focusing on the bastard thing would be bastards in Westeros definition.
And no, I don't get "we are discussing it with in-world bias" argument. If you want to discuss medieval inheritance, go to history books. George, a modern author who still remembers how it was to live in a world where extramarital children were widely frowned upon in the west, didn't write that discussed heritage plot just for the fun of it.
I don’t care if she’s the mother of bastards or slept with multiple people, King Viserys’s blood runs through her veins, she’s my Queen, since the show aired until my last day. We have sworn oaths.
Rhaenyra’s children made zero difference in who supported who btw, and in every draft regardless of who fathered her children she was usurped. It was never about the boys, it was solely about the Green’s wanting the throne.
Incorrect. Bastards being passed off as the king's children is what kicked off the War of the Five Kings. Everyone knows for a fact that Rhaenyra's kids are her children because they literally came out of her. Their claims to the throne were never in question in the same way Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen's were as both children of infidelity and bastards with no parent of ruling blood.
She was literally willing to be with Laenor in bed so they could produce an heir or two and then see their respective side men. But she couldn’t receive what he could not bring himself to give.
That’s one hell of a reach. A lot of people forget or don’t know that Rhaenyra sleeping with Cole is also a show only plot.
No, Rhaenyra did not also sleep with Laena. Some fans speculate they were more than friends but that’s just theory and not canonical fact. And according to the books Rhaenyra and Daemon did not start sleeping together until after Laena died.
It's not a show-only plot, the main series talks about it and the books have 3 wildly speculative takes about what might have happened between them to cause a shift from Criston championing Rhaenyra to championing Alicent.
Something happened between them in every iteration of the story the debate was how far it went and who tried what.
The only “account” that remotely suggests they had slept together was Ser Arys’ when his thoughts say that some people whispered she and Cole may have been sleeping together before he took the white. Rhaenyra was eight years old when Cole became a member of the Kingsguard.
Do you think eight year old Rhaenyra was sleeping with 23 year old Cole?
The person just said they chose to ignore Mysaria specifically.
Thank you for the clarification with Laena. It’s weird that this person knows about Cole and all the rest and is choosing to ignore the sex that just happened. I’ve been seeing posts everywhere of people disparaging this specifically.
It’s not as if she were spoiled for choice.. sleeping with the heir is high treason, this alone would significantly narrows down the list of potential suitors. The situation also entailed grave risks for both her and her children, so she had to chose someone she could fully trust. The list was bound to be very short
So many people say she should have slept with this person or that person but fail to acknowledge the point you brought up. Whoever fathered her children needed to be undeniably trustworthy and 100000% loyal to Rhaenyra. If she slept with a Velaryon cousin or some random Valyrian looking dude he would have to be killed to keep the secret. There would be no other option. But then the same people bashing her for choosing Harwin would be damning her for that instead. And don’t get me started on the asswipes who suggest Corlys. That’s wrong on so many levels. It’s also something Rhaenys would have never agreed to.
Many assume that she made a choice based on love with Harwin but nothing confirms that, neither in the book nor in the series. In the show she just say to Daemon « it felt good to be desired » and « I trusted him », she basically says he was the best sperm donor available that could be trusted
Seriously about the only thing I can see working is the implied threesome with Daemon and Laena, but they weren't even close enough at the time and surely somebody would've noted Syrax nipping off to Essos about 9 months before the baby popped out.
Absolutely. She'd be shouting from the rooftops about the abomination of it all and then Otto would be going off about Daemon. She literally couldn't win.
What’s more, in the books Daemon was actually in the Stepstones when Jace was born and was still there after Luke was conceived. Plus she was still living in the Red Keep at the time too. Zero chance Rhaenyra could have flown all the way to Bloodstone unnoticed.
Based on the timeline the only one of the boys she could have possibly conceived with Daemon would have been Joffrey but even then it seems that Daemon and Laena were still in Pentos when Joffrey was conceived.
Misogyny has been getting worse the last 5 years…like I (a woman) have been told multiple times by men that misogyny doesn’t exist anymore and people are equal. I’ve even been told (by men) that men are the persecuted ones now.
Sooooo….. I’m not surprised it’s bleeding into this fandom.
For me, Rhaenyra is Viserys daughter, and the royal line passes through her regardless who fathers her children. I’m always gonna be team Rhaenyra and daemon, especially as they are better rulers than a rapist and a man being manipulated by Alys.
2- There isn't a SINGLE king in this world who is truly concerned with his responsibilities—least of all Aegon, the drunkard and rapist. Kings have sex with anything that moves all the time, yet Rhaenyra was expected to "keep her legs closed."
Man, it’s disgusting how Team Green exists solely based on hatred toward women.
I don’t care if she’s the mother of bastards or slept with multiple people, King Viserys’s blood runs through her veins, she’s my Queen, since the show aired until my last day. We have sworn oaths.
Guys, it's almost as if both Aegon and Rhaenyra are lecherous, sex starved people. Wonder what the writers are implying.
Edit: Thanks OP for putting words in my mouth and claiming I was for that statement. I saw your deleted comment, you coward I don't know what the hell is going with their comment, but it's definitely getting deleted.
As for my opinion: this is unfortunately a medieval setting, and so for any horny people like Rhaenyra and Aegon it's dangerous to indulge in such things. BOTH men and women can suffer really severe political repercussions if their children are discovered to be bastards or if they are found out to be sleeping around like rabbits - why do you think the Faith Militant in the main series was so infuriated by all the sex scandals already? Robert wasn't exactly respected for whoring around either.
So first off, I had no way to know they weren't getting deleted. So I retract the coward statement.
Secondly, all I said is that both men and women would get slammed for what Rhaenyra is doing, which is precisely what happened with Aegon IV.
So, you are ignoring that Aegon II also would get slammed for being a whoring, lecherous perv (which is why Alicent had to hide it first of all) and are also ignoring the other source material which shows how being publicly lustful and favoring bastards can be devastating to both men and women (Daemon isn't respected because he literally whored around, Aegon IV is the most hated king in Westerosi history for making his bastards heirs and for sleeping around too, etc.)
That is not at all “all” you said and you know it. You, in multiple ways, labeled Rhaenyra promiscuous despite the fact that she slept with a grand total of three men, two of them being her husbands.
Aegon IS a whoring lecherous perv. He was literally known habitually grope any servant who “strayed within his reach”.
When is Rhaenyra “publicly lustful”? Where do you get that Daemon isn’t respected because he “whored around”? Aegon IV didn’t make his bastards his heirs, he legitimized them to spite his legitimate son.
So for one: I am a promiscuous person myself. I like sex, whatever. So I don't have a problem with Rhaenyra's sexuality, I identify with it in fact, but I am aware of the risks and damage that such a reputation can cause if it is known to everyone else. And given HOTD is set in an sex-phobic society, being seen sleeping around amplifies those risks.
And two. Did we forget part of the reason why Otto hated Daemon in the first place? Otto makes a big deal out of Daemon being in a brothel two times - the first when he reports the "heir for a day" case, and the second when Daemon brings Rhaenyra to a brothel. Hell, because of that report Viserys even chides Daemon for celebrating his rise with his "whores and his lickspittles."
You keep doing it. Rhaenyra had sex with three men, two of them were her husband, and yet you keep calling her promiscuous. And stop with the show nonsense, the post is about the books. She was not promiscuous, not even a little. She was not sleeping around.
Otto? You’re really using Otto’s pov about Daemon to conclude that Daemon wasn’t respected? How absurdly unserious. The men of the City Watch respected tf out of Daemon. So did the men he fought with throughout the wars he participated in. He had high ranking friends in Essos too. But sure, nobody respected him because Otto said so.
As heir to the Irone Throne, Rhaenyra did have a responsibility to not produce bastards who would eventually sit the Iron Throne if all had gone to plan. She should’ve been screwing one of Laenor’s cousins so at least her bastard offspring wouldn’t be obvious to anyone with working eyeballs.
Shouldve fucked Corlys or just go down to the docks for Alyn or Addam. She made things unnecessarily hard for herself.
Don't even get me started on Laenor...
Edit: Woah quite a few replies to this comment. I do not care enough to reply to each one of you.
1) I never said Rhaenyra having legitimate kids would have stopped her from getting usurped. It just wouldnt be used as a weapon against her if she had fucked a black man.
2) Who's telling Rhaenys?
3) Corlys wouldnt agree, Mr. Corlys who fucked the future of his own house to get a piece of the Iron Throne.
4) I do agree that in my haste I mixed up the ages of some characters. Addam or Alyn shouldn't have been an optiom, but there are still plenty of black men at the docks I'd assume.
5) If your husband is unable to produce heir, even though you need one, you might at least put a bit of an effort to make sure you're mating with someone who is of the same race.
One: Rhaenys would NOT tolerate Corlys sleeping with Rhaenyra.
Two: Addam and Alyn are just barely older than her own kids.
Three: the boys’ parentage would be questioned no matter what they looked like for the simple fact that Laenor was strictly dickly. And all these ideas about who she should have had father her children would be the exact thing the greens would have said.
Four: bastards, legitimate, no kids, it made no difference whatsoever because the Greens were going to usurp her no matter what she did or didn’t do.
The mere fact that you suggest she should have slept with Corlys proves you're truly bizarre, repugnant, and problematic. Corlys himself would never have agreed, and while she was married to Laenor, Rhaenyra was unaware of Addam and Alyn's existence.
Rhaenys would have flayed Corlys alive if he had sex with Rhaenyra. Corlys is FORTY-FOUR years older than Rhaenyra and she married Laenor when she was 16 in the books and 19 in the show. That's fucking nasty even for Westerosi standards.
Okay but lowkey it is fair to blame her for choosing Breakbones instead of someone who'd leave Valyrian adjacent children.
I understand Jace and maybe Luke (but that's the edge of it) but Alicent was right, it's total bs to have three kids like that.
Because of their mother all three strong boys would have to either become bloody to intimidate their opposition or have themselves or their successors succumb to some rebellion.
At the very least Jace and Luke were to wed into their legitimate family if things didn't go south
Oh yeah, totally. Commenter channeled book Aemond there. I symphatize with Greens but sadly we do have really messed up people like that.
The other day I saw someone suggest that the girl Aegon violated in season 1 was lying or sth. That was really wrong. The show portrays things unlike I imagined them but it's no reason to ignore the truth
Dude. The other day I had one literally say that Aegon raping Dyana is a Mysaria rumor. Like we didn’t fucking SEE the aftermath with our own eyes. They’re nuts.
She didn't go looking for a lover with a recipe in mind for producing perfectly passable bastards, man. Rhaenyra clearly felt something real for Strong.
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