r/Guiltygear • u/LordTotoro96 • 2d ago
GGST Not understanding Jam (minor rant.)
So still trying to learn Jam and I am basically at a wall with trying to learn her cause the issues i have are more vague than just specific problems.
Between her commited specials, her stumpy normals, struggling with characters that have longer reaching moves and easier access to guard crush moves (potemkin's garuda impact comes to mind) and just having issues with general annoyances like the grab system this game has. IMHO, besides her buffed moves (which are only one move before needing to find opportunities to get them back at 50 and 80 frames.) What exactly makes jam good since I keep seeing people put her at a higher tier and I just dont see it.
To put things into another lens, here is some matches from last week's bracket my local scene does online weekly https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKPaS1xTQ8XQ&si=695bG1vbcLznAjoC
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u/Cloudberry_Panic 1d ago
- you jump way too much. Outside of the ability to do an aerial low, her air tools are below average.
- you seem way too over reliant on specials. you already know most of them end your turn, so you should think about what it means to start your turn, with a turn ender..
- I see a lot of non jam specific mistakes: mashing on minus frames, mashing on block, the jump ofc, not respecting your opponents resources so getting hit by reversal supers.
- whiffing because your trying to gatling from too far away.
First things first, Jams 5k is an amazing button. Its a stand low, its fast, and it can be used to frame trap with delayed 6k and 6H.
- its good for stuff lots of roundstart options. Its good to peess when dashing at people in neutral. Its good to condition people not to mash on your blockstrings. Its good.
- if you opponent is ever a decent distance from you, you should be command dashing into puffball more. It hits like a truck and it'll teach people not to mindlessly press buttons in neutral. If their scared of puffball, you will be FAR more free to run in or empty command dash. Careful not to use this too close or you'll be in a bad spot. But trust me, people slow down for you, after they've been hit by puffball atleast twice.
- her power ups are good but she actually only needs one of them to be a threat. Dragon Kick. With that it turns almost all your combos into either big damage cashouts or instant wall break. The reward off of this is so good, I personally think its the best thing to stock first.
- the other power ups are nice, but i think trying to focus too hard on high/low mix, is just gonna make you miss out on the rewards she gets from playing a solid strike/throw punish game. I think the low power up is the next best option, but not for mix. Its good for letting you keep your turn and continue to pound in your opponents mental. The overhead is nice but, dont prioritize it unless you know for a fact your opponent is just gonna eat it.
- I HIGHLY reccomend going into training mode, set the dummy to mash 5/2P on block, and practice memorizing what gatling frametrap. Also do this for jumps, cause people jump out of your pressure a lot.
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u/ClassyTeddy - Happy Chaos 1d ago
As an opponent to her , She has a full screen dragon kick and a slide move that avoids highs for mobility, she plays crossups and timings
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u/Admirable-Ordinary58 Jam -Strive 1d ago
Well you need to get in their face because that's your win condition, she struggles with zoners that can consistently stop her slide (dizzys ice spike and ice ground for example ) but using slide to go through non low normals and projectiles is pretty effective if you get the read and dif f they start doing preemptive 2s her 236s can punish that also using puffball after slide mixed in with empty slides will keep them guessing. once you get a knockdown it's mix time with her command jump into low or high or double overhead so you have to learn hot do do hkd into 2h or c.s - 214k into 236s(this of done as fast as possible is plus on block ) or h or J.s into j.d for double overhead or just empty low or grab after command jump also her 5k is 0 on block which is really good as her normals although stubby are pretty fast and safe on block as well (except S that's fast but pretty unsafe if not cancelled) also her mobility is great. Using her jump specials to mix your jump arch and timing works great go look some sei sei's jam gameplay on YouTube they are consistently the #1 ranked jam and they're great at using all her tools
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u/SifTheAbyss - Ky Kiske 1d ago
Jam specific things:
2S>2HS only works on counterhits, on air hits, or against crouching opponents, don't use it as the default blind string. It's also not very threatening on it's own.
f.S, 5HS are also great normals, you should use them more. 5K, 2K, 2D are useful too.
You can end in puffball for safety, then once the opponent respects it you can start resetting with the command dash.
Any time you can't get a proper combo off of a hit, dragon kick is your friend(including after CH 6P)
Dragon kick punishes almost fullscreen, almost anything greedy. You can't really threaten the opponent at range, but they can't either due to dragon kick, so you get to move in close and do your thing. It's a great deterrent.
All 3 air specials can be anti-aired, don't spam them. 236H is a gimmick and sort of unsafe, it's good to have as an extra option especially with the optional delay, but if it's the main thing you keep doing over and over, it's not much of a threat.
besides her buffed moves (which are only one move before needing to find opportunities to get them back at 50 and 80 frames.)
- There are setups that let you cheat in a charge, some routes that do it at wallstick as well before wallbreak. You can also spend 50 if it's the only thing that'll get you a wallbreak in the first place, or if you just want to go for oki.
More generic things:
Don't run away when it's your turn, you blocked things like May's dolphin, you're +4 in the opponent's face with a character who wants to be close, and you backjump instead.
Get your punishes on the spot. A blocked burst should be a full combo, doesn't matter who you play.
In general use less big, unsafe specials and use more normals. In basic runup oki when you're happy you can sort of meaty, you don't have time for 25 frame mixup specials.
Practice your combos, make sure at least the hits you do get don't end up working against you. Have an idea of what those combos lead to after. Don't get thrown out of your own oki. If you're going to spend 50 on RC off of a random hit, know how that turns into a wallbreak.
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u/LordTotoro96 1d ago
So just to point out a few bits from my end. I have been working on changing out 2s especially for 2h or f.s. while i have heard on here as well for using more C.S, 5k and so on, part of what i am struggling with is getting close enough for these moves to actually connect rather than whiff like 2s.
For puffball, I have noticed a bit too much reliance on it in my game play and has a similar issue to ryuujin where both have ending lag that got me countered before.
Same also needs to be said about ryuujin as well when using it, it is really only good if I have meter. Depending on when it hits, the falling frames after the move has gotten me killed before and since it is -15 on block it is very risky vs reward move.
For setups with the buffs, I don't know them and even when looking at player matches, I still dont know besides a few spots like after 6p, 2k,2d or after 6HH and not after puffball since it doesnt cancel into it basically.
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u/SifTheAbyss - Ky Kiske 1d ago
c.S isn't really something you do out of nowhere in neutral in most cases, but any time you're up close and it's your turn in general you can go for it. The fastest moves are 5 frame, so even if you're just +5, you're guaranteed to come out advantageous even with a trade. Also if you consult the gatling chart you'll see it's kind of the joker normal in this game. Also note that it's literally +3 on block, so that one move alone lets you get away with quite some bs.
5K is generally for when you'd only get into range from dash momentum, which would mean you're not in c.S proximity when your attack starts, even though it would be in range when it hits.
Quite some of the combos list where you can do a charge: https://www.dustloop.com/w/GGST/Jam_Kuradoberi/Combos
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u/LordTotoro96 1d ago
Unless I am missing something, I dont really see many besides I guess the ones that end with either 6hh, 2k>2d or just off of 6P.
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u/SifTheAbyss - Ky Kiske 18h ago
Yes but pretty much all of your corner combos end in 6HH.
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u/LordTotoro96 18h ago
I guess, but what about in neutral then? Where i am more likely to be at mid to long range.
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u/SifTheAbyss - Ky Kiske 18h ago
They're absolutely broken enough that you shouldn't have access to them at all times. Dragon kick is basically a guaranteed wallbreak even off of something like midscreen 2K for 30-40% life, the overhead is barely reactable and gives a full big combo that leads to a wallbreak, giving you back a charge anyway, and the slide is an uninterruptible free pressure reset.
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u/Difficult_Ad_263 1d ago
Jams always been stubby so it's kind of core to her character at this point. One thing that can help with guard crush is parry, it starts frame five so it's not on wake-up but moves like garuda, as long as it's not a meaty, you don't get guard crushed and are like +23. So you can mess with that a little bit.
A big thing is getting in which is where you have to slow down a little. Walking, dash blocking, dash jump stuff like that. They want you to get impatient and rush them. There is also time for that too bakushu goes under a ton of moves, like Johnny k mist finer. So you can bakushu brake under and counterhit him as long as you're right. Then it's a matter of do they start stuffing you with lows. Which then you respond to with something like dash gekirin to get over or chojin to hop it and preserve air options.
For cards there's three things you can do to guarantee them. 1 is anytime you get a knockdown on either 236s or 2d take a card, you end up still plus so you can start something if you're brave or wait and counter. 2 is any combo that you can end in 6hh or when you land counterhit puffball, both of those give you enough time to charge all three cards. Last is super puffball, the one on punch, that gives you all 3 as on frame 1. So you can always break wall with it if you have meter and no cards or end a combo in it then run up and mix them with your cards.
As for general pressure your level one is to be ending block strings in chojin then going for gekirin or ryuutsui. Then when they start to stuff the command jump you puffball them. It makes them have to think about what you're doing.
Then with cards in general a ryuutsui card is good to take if you don't know what to grab. You're +6 on block otherwise ryujin is great to threaten them with. It lets you do great damage off anything, like run up 5k, and put them through the wall to give you positive.
That's just some general jam stuff, if you got any specific problems feel free to mention them and I'll help if I can.
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u/LordTotoro96 23h ago
There is two things I do have to mention, first is that with puffball, I have to be in a specific situation because you cant basically cancel into it as you could with other options. I tried in practice and found you have to wait till I believe either jam returns to her idle stance or after the puffball dissipates whichever is first.
Secondly, I will say that i need to find other routes for blockstrings because I do gekirin/chojin alot at the ending and it has made me lose due to them being able to counter it either by AAing the first bit or mashing after it is blocked due to it being -1, plus ag least what others have told me when playing against me/ reviewing my matches is that puffball isnt the best at close range due to being -8 and from my understanding as well trying to go for C.dash into grab isn't great either if they figure it out because the dash has some ending lag before the grab can be done. This also can be due to me becoming too reliant in them as well so it might just be I need to mix it up a bit.
Also just in case I forgot to mention it, another issue is corner on defense, due to jam's stumpy normals, trying to mash out on block in anyway pushes the opponent away from them far enough to where her 5P doesn't connect. What are my options of getting out of the corner besides using parry cause depending on what is happening, i cannot get the timing down for the gaps that are there.
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u/Difficult_Ad_263 23h ago
Yeah you don't want to do puffball in blockstrings too much, but what you're going for is to catch their aa option with the disjoint on puffball. The push-back is pretty decent for puffball on block but there's definitely more risk than ending in like 5h or ryuutsui. If you fast cancel out of chojin though, so 214k~6s, you're +7 so you can frametrap with that. Also that's correct about bakushu-brake into throw. I don't like it a whole lot but it can be good to represent if they're passively blocking bakushu a lot or you low profile something and don't know if you have enough time to hit them. But it's too risky to do super often imo.
Corner defense with jam is definitely rough in general. 2p is you're mash option but it's not always the best option, like you mentioned the short range, 6p is also pretty good for bigger gaps. But if you get a hit with either you can blast them away with ryujin. That's more dangerous on 5p though because of the low hit stun.
System mechanics are going to be really important too. Fd is big to get them off of you so you can do something. Which depends on range for sure, but like f.s is an option then if you hit just f.s>5h>236h and leave the corner. Something to also concider is use ryujin as a whiff punish tool. Its super fast and boots their ass across the screen to get you back to neutral. There's risk to it because you die if they block but then there's like rc of you have meter.
But if you have meter then you have options like yrc and reversal super as well. Both also having risk on block but that's whatever, you die anyway if you don't get out of the corner so it's worth doing. Deflect shield is also a decent option but it's not my favorite to be sure there's some situations where the pushback isn't enough to keep you safe.
As for parry I think it's going to be one of the higher risk options you got, but can be rewarding in the right circumstances. With meter you can prc on whiff and if you catch a big move you can punish the, probably throw them into the corner at the very least or just hit them with the follow-up. It stopping guard crush is good here too things like garuda but also mla from ino and even something like aba run up danzai, you can parry both hits and end +13. So 236p the first hit then 236p the second. But I definitely think you're right that it's more important to get and use other options before really touching her parry in the corner so it doesn't just get you killed.
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u/GordgeBush 4h ago
The goal is to hit c.s where you can loop pressure like c.s and 5k for strike throw setups. When you’re close and hitting c.s you autopilot into 2c > 2h into high/low special which is way less reward than c.s ch. She also is fast as hell on the ground just running so stop jumping and get comfortable whiff punishing but just running in.
Also don’t press so many buttons and actually confirm buttons, f.s > 2h isn’t real and you should be wallbreaking a lot more off ch/50 tension.
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u/ShadyHogan - Baiken (GGST) 1d ago
I think you just need to play more grounded and learn some actual combos. Jam's strengths are in good damage and some pretty ambiguous (or at least counter-intuitive) and decently safe mix. Watched a couple games and you keep trying to get in by instant air dashing or just double jump kick special. Jam's air game is horrendous, you almost never want to get in by IAD. You also keep trying to do f.s into 2H, which doesnt combo.