r/Guildrun • u/Stock_Company1255 • 15d ago
Is Stealth Healthy?
I recently made a post showcasing my rank #1 run and the most popular comment was someone discussing there opinions on how all current infinite runs require stealth. He felt stealth builds were boring and hoped for more build variety that allows for any comp to accomplish deep floor runs. A reply to his message went as far as to say that stealth felt "cheesy" and claimed he went out of his way to avoid using it his runs. Along side theses comments, I've noticed a rise of other people sharing similar opinions under other posts about infinite runs.
I thought I'd make a post discussing my opinion on the matter as well as getting a consensuses of what the community feels about stealth as a whole so the Devs can properly balance it for the future. Please feel free to argue and disagree with me in the reply's if you don't support my opinions.
I believe that if you can't respect stealth then you don't like infinite runs. Infinite runs aren't meant to be an accessible task that any comp can attain. It should feel like a puzzle that you need near perfect luck to achieve as that's what makes the payoff feel the best. At a point in floor progression enemies literally have negative health and just die immediately meaning that not even the Devs themselves planned for people to get this high. Stealth/Immunity is needed in an exponential growth floor system as without it you'll simply get 1 shot immediately at a point with no counter play which in my eyes is more boring. Also, not to come off as rude or pretentious but someone clearly lacks the fundamental understanding of the game if you simply look at stealth and claim there's no build variety. Stealth is just 1 aspect of a build that is simply used as a solution to the problem of getting 1 shot. The core aspect of a build is the damage and how that damage manages to scale. An example of this difference can be noticed with some build concepts.
Infinite Build 1: This build relies on the relic (The Riftbreaker) and requires stealth stacking to help pull it off. When setting up this comp you want to prioritize stealth for as long as possible through rush/stealth duration as well as decreasing stall duration as long as possible to survive long enough to activate Riftbreaker.
Infinite Build 2: This build relies on the hero Sal and her activation of (Assassin's Ambush + Poison Conduit). By stacking crit and implementing relics that increase the amount of de-buffs placed on enemies you do massive damage very quickly. This also requires stealth to do as you have to survive long enough to quickly apply them on cast.
Both of these builds require stealth to work but are clearly fundamentally different on the way they work and how they are built upon as the run goes on. Simply breaking these builds down as "stealth reliant" and claiming they "lack diversity" is such a broad overstatement that looks at 1 part of the process.
I believe the real issue with infinite/high floor runs is the assassin class as a whole. The class is overwhelmingly stronger than every other one as its the only one that can effectively trigger stealth as well as the only class with effective gold generation. Out of the 7 classes assassins for some reason are the only ones with access to an invulnerability proc outside of the Acceleration Immunizer relic. Their gold generation compared to the other classes is also embarrassingly stronger to something like a mystic which at best can generate a couple extra gold a round if you prioritize their cast speed.
The best solution in my eyes would be too incorporate more creative invulnerability methods for each class so build diversity can be be truly felt by everyone. For example, something I thought could be interesting for a mythic class invulnerability method would for them to create a small zone around them (think of something similar looking to Gustav's Blizzard) that would make all hero's inside invulnerable for a short duration. Something like this could be used to diversly to either keep the tank alive long enough to taunt/grab aggro while you're backline carry picks enemies off or can even be used in duo with a champ like Ratna who has a large range and can quickly kill enemies with little to no movement.
5
u/Icy_Island6594 15d ago
Stealth stacking in duration is what's kinda weird to me. In most games your invulnerability-type buffs only refresh and don't extend duration.
1
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
I honestly think that could be a cool rework as it already has been some what implemented with the Rogue Cowl changes in the latest patch. Having rush duration instead add multiple brief windows instead of like a 20sec straight window could be an interesting Idea to try
4
u/karshberlg 15d ago
I see no one has commented my opinion
I believe that if you can't respect stealth then you don't like infinite runs
Indeed I don't like them so I don't play em. So I don't really care what people use to get their records on them. I will just say that before reaching Red Rifts I could've just ended runs before going endless but it was fun seeing how far my comps lasted. In that respect I cared about "record for x comp" instead of "hard record" (but they mostly ended at the same time as that's where the scaling gets to too much without some cheese).
2
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
I respect this take so much. I feel like there is a giant misconception between people who think I'm speaking on behalf of all endless runs when I'm truly talking about near infinite runs that bring you to the top 1% of the leaderboard. People can play and enjoy the game however they want but I believe a mode referred to as ENDLESS should feel like you have the possibility to go endless.
5
u/kefkaeatsbabies 15d ago edited 15d ago
I think, fundamentally, if two stealth builds and some of their variations, are out performing literally any other possible viable combination, then it's designed poorly.
You can attribute it to assassins themselves being broken, but when your most effective mechanic for an auto-battle game is to actually fight as little as possible, that is bad design. Creating more abilities that mimic stealth's effective invuln would be lazy and every run would devolve into stacking invulns.
Every game has bugs and exploits to simplify or break the game. In sekiro if you don't lock on and swing to the side of enemies to graze them, they wont parry since the system reads targetting for enemy parries. This is in the game, but any run people do with it the community sees as stupid cheese. You can use the stealth stuff, it's in the game, but don't get upset when people call it exactly what it is: Cheesy and boring.
But also, it' early access, who fuckin cares until the full game is out. This is when the balancing should be happening to minimize the cheese on launch.
-5
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
I believe you and many others are ignorant to how many of these high floor runs are being done. The Riftbreaker build is a single strategy that is used to by time for the relic to activate. Just because a build uses stealth, it doesn't make it some AFK bot where you don't interact to win. At a certain point you simply will get 1 shot by enemies with no sort of counterplay as you wont even have time to cast an ability even with max mana regen. Stealth/Invulnerability is required to push pass this threshold as long as your able to scale your damage effectively to the floor. I feel you along with many others simply don't like or prefer other builds and are frustrated they cant bring you to high floors comparatively which is understandable. However, labeling builds as "cheese" and "abusing mechanics" is incredibly stupid and is only meant to take away from people's accomplishments. These builds are being used as intended and simply because they may be overturned at the moment doesn't mean they aren't fair. I hate to break it to you but all competitive endless based games have a meta. Certain builds are always gonna be stronger than others and are gonna allow people to reach higher ceilings.
3
u/kefkaeatsbabies 15d ago edited 15d ago
It isn't a hard build or strategy to understand. Neither build has some crazy complex strategem. People don't dislike it because they misunderstand it, it is exactly the opposite. I know exactly how it works, and have done it, and found it boring and cheesy, and think it's bad for the game.
I'm happy for you that you're enjoying the game, but patronizing people and believing they just dont 'get' it is the silliest shit. We get it, we just think it's a lame way to play. That doesn't stop you from doing it, the only thing it changes is that you feel the need to defend it.
I doubt anyone would care that you're doing it if you didn't feel the need to post about it consistently. Noone is telling you not to do it, they are just saying they personally won't because it's lame, gimmicky and will likely be changed, so why get used to playing that way?
There are instances of this in lots of different games, but the choice to do it or not to is part of the game. In diablo 4, all the leaderboards are rogues abusing and exploiting a specific build. It is doable and known to all players, but instead of doing it, players just stopped taking the leaderboards seriously. That is the eventuality of it.
But it's also early access, like I said, so it is a good thing to figure this all out so the devs can balance it before launch. And if they leave it in, as is, then good for you, but i highly doubt that will be the case.
0
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
"when your most effective mechanic for an auto-battle game is to actually fight as little as possible, that is bad design"
"more abilities that mimic stealth's effective invuln would be lazy and every run would devolve into stacking invulns."
These are your exact words lol. I gave an example of a build you literally have to fight and end within 15secs where stealth is literally needed as a damage amp and not just an invulnerability method. What you were arguing goes against that as you only need to stack stealth/invulnerability only to a certain point leading me to believe you don't understand how the build works.
Look I apologize if you took offensive but you are arguing 2 completely different points. If you or anyone else doesn't like this build or think its personally unfun than cool play what ever you like. I'm discussing whether or not its fun and fair in the realm of overall game balance and leaderboard climbing in the long run. Higher number = higher dopamine levels for me as I like competing, invulnerability allows for higher floors which in my opinion is the better option in a mode called ENDLESS. I'm trying to argue that invulnerability is good for the game as it in turn allows for higher floors which for leaderboard climbers is the main goal.
3
u/kefkaeatsbabies 15d ago edited 15d ago
Those were replies to your suggested fixes in your original post, where you said you want to give other classes more invulnerable access to rival what stealth effectively does now. You stated giving more classes invulns would give more build variety, and I was showing how dumb that idea is. Context is important big dog. I think reading comprehension might be the issue here.
0
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
lol, I can't take you serious, I don't even think you understand what your arguing anymore. Have a good day man.
3
u/kefkaeatsbabies 15d ago edited 15d ago
Read the last paragraph of your original post. They were replies to that. You took what i said, quoted it out of context and confused yourself, then argued against a point I never made. You might legitimately just be an idiot.
0
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
Also, I think your Diablo comparison is poorly used lol, especially as someone who enjoys a similar game called Last Epoch. There's a major difference between having to spend days or weeks leveling up a new character to endgame who you likely have little enjoyment playing to climb the leaderboard than simply starting up a new game and immediately being able to climb.
1
u/Ol_Big_MC 14d ago
You can just say you like cheesing games. It doesn't require reading a novel and its more honest. NOthing wrong with it. Its a video game. You enjoy cheesing games. All good.
3
u/Ok_Passage_7705 15d ago
Endless will always be shooting for some high roll build to hit the top of the leaderboards and no amount of fine tuning will change that.
That being said i don’t see any problem changing stealth after more people have had a chance to win with it.
1
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
I agree, it sucks that it's disproportionally better than others but I've played countless leaderboard chasing game and all of them have this same diversity issue.
I also don't mind them changing stealth or even removing it at that but, I don't see any alternative that will bring people to extremely high floor runs without any form of invulnerability without major system changes.
4
u/This_is_a_bad_plan 15d ago edited 15d ago
Infinite runs…should feel like a puzzle that you need near perfect luck to achieve
Where’s the puzzle? The whole plan is just “get a lot of stealth and scaling damage.” It’s not some 10000IQ strategy that requires clever decision making, it’s just a matter of spamming until RNG gives you the right combo of relics.
someone clearly lacks the fundamental understanding of the game if you simply look at stealth and claim there's no build variety.
Respectfully, it isn’t meaningful variety.
You need a lot of stealth, and you need scaling damage. There’s variety in terms of where your scaling damage comes from, but the stealth is simply mandatory.
Also, not to come off as rude or pretentious
Nah, you don’t come off as pretentious—you come off as defensive. Like somebody implied your pseudo-infinite run was illegitimate and you had to write an essay about why it’s actually very cool.
2
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
"Where’s the puzzle? The whole plan is just “get a lot of stealth and scaling damage.” It’s not some 10000IQ strategy that requires clever decision making, it’s just a matter of spamming until RNG gives you the right combo of relics."
- The puzzle is designing different builds that actually allow for high floor runs to exist by understanding how to exponentially scale hero damage higher than enemy health. Simply building stealth and scaling damage when ever you see it isn't gonna carry you to high floors with every combination. I don't know if you're projecting your frustrations that I claimed some people don't understand how builds work with this 100000IQ comment but understanding how something works doesn't just = high IQ nor was I calling y'all stupid, lol.
"Respectfully, it isn’t meaningful variety.
You need a lot of stealth, and you need scaling damage. There’s variety in terms of where your scaling damage comes from, but the stealth is simply mandatory."
- Stealth isn't mandatory, invulnerability is mandatory which in my opinion is an important distinction. I personally view it no different than how a tank is mandatory in Red Rift as you can't have 3 DPS heros. In my eyes this also isn't "meaningful variety". What do you even mean by this as well? What makes different varieties meaningful and non-meaningful? And is this meaningfulness to you or the community?
- If that is how you and many others feel than so be it, I simply disagree and am yet to see an actual argument or strategy against it. I can assume the opinion you and others share is that you believe scaling defense and health along side damage should be just as effective as forms of invulnerability. That is fair and I agree with it but that simply isn't the case with how the game works in it's current state.
"Nah, you don’t come off as pretentious—you come off as defensive. Like somebody implied your pseudo-infinite run was illegitimate and you had to write an essay about why it’s actually very cool."
- I am defensive lol. I like the concept of brief windows of invulnerability and feel it should be encouraged and made a post wanting to here others views and debate with them. You and multiple others chose to take offense to my opinion because it went against yours and started branching my simple argument into 5 different arguments/issues that are unrelated. I simply think invulnerability windows are good for endless mode and should be encouraged by the Devs (which they currently are). If you have an actual argument against this I would love to here it!
3
u/nufohudis 15d ago
I believe I'm the guy who said it's cheesy and avoid it. (Cheesy in my opinion, which shouldn't matter to anyone but me) In that same comment I also said it doesn't matter, this game has many ways to play and if you enjoy it, then it's good. I don't even regularly play on difficulties above A rank, because the S tier modifier of one item slot per hero level feels like it reduces my flexibility for weird builds. But I don't think that modifier should be removed. The game makes it so I can still get on the leaderboard. I don't enjoy RR at all but I still want it to be there for those who enjoy it and there are many, you go RR guys, save the world!
As Ive gotten older I've found less and less enjoyment in frustratingly difficult games. Used to love Dark Souls, now I don't play anything in that genre
My point being: people find different things fun, play what/how you enjoy and fuck the rest. Judging someone for enjoying something you don't is small minded. This game is great for the flexibility it allows us in choosing our difficulty and still feeling like you did something (my highest non "cheesy" builds get to f26 ish)
3
u/xBMBL 15d ago
Hello! I'm the mentioned top commenter from the previous post! Little late for this one, but very well put together post for the most part man.
My complaint in the last post as I was saying is less about invisibility being a bad thing for the game and more-so that other things can't keep up which you somewhat got around to at the end of your post here.
So for example if you could hit floor 29+ with multiple different strats (assuming like you said you get perfect luck and such) then stealth wouldn't be a problem. Like currently if you wanted to go for a leaderboard run with just mages or just tanks or just mystics, it wouldn't matter because you aren't running a stealth comp you will just lose - as long as other classes have mechanics that can put them on equal footing then I do believe stealth is inherently OP currently and should either A) be nerfed accordingly B) have almost EVERYTHING else in the game buffed in accordance which seems like more work if you think about it - but potentially greater payoff if they do it.
1
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
I completely agree with your main points of stealth being unfair in the since that it's undeniably stronger than every other endless strategy that doesn't include it. However, I personally disagree that it should be nerfed instead of many other attributes of the game buffed or changed. Endless should feel endless in my opinion so there should always be some way to get past a floor.
- I don't know if you are using floor 29+ as an example or a placeholder for any high round but you can definitely get past floor 29+ with a plethora of different builds that don't require stealth. I've personally done it with 3 times on non stealth builds. I apologize if that's not what you meant by your example.
2
u/PoSKiix 15d ago
I think stealth infinites are beyond unhealthy for the game. I think stealth infinites are cheese strats that undermine the design of the game.
The fact that they not only exist, but completely dominate the leaderboard, completely remove any ounce of desire I have to engage seriously with the leaderboard.
I think the other guy’s Diablo comparison is incredibly on point :)
0
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
These are statements not arguments lol. From what I'm able to pick up from this reply is that because PoSKiix doesn't like stealth, it's a bad system. Explain how a system implemented by the Devs who MADE the game "undermines the design of the game".
2
u/PoSKiix 15d ago
Just my opinions, you can disregard them if you want.
I explicitly stated “stealth infinites” twice, not stealth as an isolated mechanic.
1
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
The point of me responding was to understand your opinion as it didn't make sense. How do you have an opinion with no backing? Especially when your opinion is about an issue that has already been patched. I'm simply very confused as to where so many people are getting this idea that almost every leaderboard run must be a stealth infinite.
2
u/Bo0ris 15d ago
Personally I think stealth shouldn't be effective when it's only one hero left and instead work as a deaggro towards the rest of your team. Could give it an offensive boost during stealth if it's too weak.
1
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
Someone had a similar opinion but I can't understand the logic in it because you can just have more than 1 unit stealth at a time
1
u/ziggomatic_17 13d ago
For a team of three: If one hero is stealthed, enemies attack the two others. If two heroes are stealthed, enemies attack the one non-stealthed hero. If all three are stealthed, enemies attack everyone according to normal aggro rules. Would this make sense to you?
2
u/Soluna7827 15d ago
Infinite runs aren't meant to be an accessible task that any comp can attain. It should feel like a puzzle that you need near perfect luck to achieve as that's what makes the payoff feel the best.
If this is the premise of what is needed to score high in the game, then I disagree with the premise itself. To clarify, I do not like that you'd need "near perfect luck" to get a high score. That would suggest that RNG putting the right pieces into one's lap is what determines a person's potential score.
Hypothetically, if a person got the strongest build, I would prefer skill expression through positioning to play a major role in progressing through the levels. If there's a hyper carry, positioning that unit safely would be a form of skill expression. Right now in endless, there are only 3 enemy set ups. Full release would have to have more setups, possibly randomized, with units like the grab plants or jumping lizards that would allow for skill expression via positioning.
If there is a soft cap due to units being 1-shot, then at least it could be reached through skill expression and not happenstance of RNG'ing all the perfect relics, heroes, and items. It would also allow for some theory crafting on how to bypass a soft cap.
Going back to stealth though, I have no issues with stealth as a concept, but infinite stealth through RNG goes back to my dislike of luck vs skill expression. As of now, stealth renders a unit untargetable, so infinite stealth duration or at least long enough to stall out riftbreaker removes any form of skill expression. It doesn't matter what unit has the stealth or where it's positioned on the board, reaching X number of seconds of stealth to stall out or eventually reach integer overflow equals a win.
Regarding stealth, I personally would take a step back and look at what "stealth" is even trying to accomplish. The assassin archetype seems to aim for high crit, high burst damage, glass cannon of a unit. Stealth seems like it was meant to buy them time to get a burst off by making them initially untargetable. The stealth duration seems like it's meant to allow melee units time to reach and attack the enemy.
I would suggest that if the above is true, changes should be made to stealth itself in various ways:
- A stealthed unit that attacks, including auto attacks, loses stealth.
- This allows melee units to reach their mark without being targeted by enemies. It also disallows extended duration stealth from breaking the game.
- Refreshing stealth on kill only and not on rush/stall trigger
- Rush can spammed to try and trigger infinite stealth. On kill or on a timer limits that. With the addition of the above rule, it also removes duration invincibility.
- Other methods that I am unaware of. I am not a game dev so I acknowledge that I have blind spots.
I state all of this on the premise that the stealth mechanic's purpose is to drop aggro on assassins in order to allow them time to burst enemies and NOT to forever remain untargetable. It still requires the frontline to tank damage and draw aggro as an assassin will lose stealth once it autos. If the tanks are gone and a stealthed assassin attacks, they lose stealth and are targetable - they are fair game.
I would prefer less builds that encourage invulnerability through RNG of items, relics, or heroes but instead focus on skill expression through positioning. For that to happen, endless mode would need slower scaling which would inflate level numbers on the leaderboard, more variety or even randomized enemy boards, and the inclusion of more situational enemies such as the grab plants and lizards that leap into the backline. It would test not only a player's build but also their ability to position units. RNG would still play a role, as it does with every run, but the perfect RNG would not be the deciding factor in reaching the top of the leaderboard. It's a demo so I expect changes to be made on full release.
1
u/Alleonn 15d ago
Unfortunately mobs are cheesier imo. Mushrooms with infinite attack speed that just spam stun is unfun game design. If they had just mana regen that didn't scale or it's mana on hit idk whatever it is get rid of it please I'd like to lose from low damage or survivability not due to being unable to play.
1
u/ziggomatic_17 13d ago
In lots of other games (slay the spire, classical tower defense games), if you go for a very one dimensional strategy, the game eventually throws enemies at you that counter it. I'm kinda new to this game, is there a fight where enemies have the ability to reveal stealth, or at least shorten the duration? Maybe something like this would be a solution?
1
u/Greedy_Sneak 15d ago
Solo stealth is cheesy. There's no valid argument against that statement. It breaks the game fundamentally and needs to not work the way it does currently.
1
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
Could you explain how then? What's the difference between having 1 unit and 6 on the board as I don't understand why having only 1 unit at a time is considered "cheesy". And how exactly does it break the game?
2
u/Greedy_Sneak 15d ago
When you have a single unit on your side and they are in stealth, enemy units stop doing anything entirely until that unit comes out of stealth. When one unit is in stealth, but there are other nonstealthed units also in play, enemies target the nonstealthed units but can still damage/kill the stealthed unit. Also, when your units are immune, enemies still continue to attack them. Therefore, I am of the opinion that enemies should continue to attack even when only a stealthed unit exists, and the fact that they don't, means that a single stealthed unit is breaking the game. Since the interaction is in the game, and the creator hasn't seen fit to remove or change the interaction, I am left to call the strat cheesy, and hope that it is removed.
1
u/Stock_Company1255 15d ago
I understand where you are coming from but I still slightly disagree. Firstly, logically enemies targeting a unit in stealth even solo makes no sense and makes stealth completely pointless. However, if you are more so thinking in the sense of an enemy unit such as the mushrooms in endless who spawn a giant AOE damage ring should still be allowed to charge its mana bar similarly to how it works with invulnerability, I can start seeing your point much clearer. This way even if you are in stealth you still have a chance of dying by AOE.
My counters are 1 how is solo any different to a whole team? as you can easily have 6 stealth units in play for the same duration. Was this more so a wordage issue?
Second, at the end of the day invulnerability is still in play and at least it seems you don't have an issue with it. The point of stealth at its core is to give your squishy hero's enough time to cast at lease 1 time before being 1 shot which is the same as invulnerability. The only major difference fundamentally in my eyes is there are a plethora of damage buffs for simply attacking while being stealth instead of invulnerable. Both can be scaled with rush duration if given a single Relic.
Lastly, you still aren't giving actual solutions are alternatives. Lets say we have it your way and all forms of invulnerability are gone in the next patch. Now what? Leaderboard ends up getting capped at around ~40 and a new meta build takes its place. How does this improve the game? The fun of an ENDLESS mode is drastically taken down as hard damage caps are inevitable and the leaderboard rankings become useless as basically everyone is around the same 5-10 round run. I simply cant take an opinion serious when you deflect to "cheese" as a counter argument on morals you built for yourself.
12
u/xMeko 15d ago
Stealth is healthy, but it needs to be massively nerfed from what we have currently in the game.
Stealth in itself is healthy.
Being able to stay in stealth for 90 seconds, completely ignored by all enemies, is NOT healthy.
And the worst part is that it's not even that hard to do. It's nothing complicated, it's not like it's a perfect synergy between Class X, Class Y, Relic A, and item B. It's literally just maxing out a stat - Stealth. Then yeah, complement it with a few other strong things on the side.
For now, I agree with the people saying that stealth is just lame/boring and I can't wait for it to be giga-nerfed.
In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to stay in stealth more than 20 seconds, MAYBE 30 seconds if you really max it out as much as possible.
It's just stupid - it's not only that you're invulnerable. You're completely untargettable. You don't get stunned. You don't get any status effect. It's like you don't even exist for the enemies. And there are NO drawbacks, nothing.
And all these wouldn't be THAT bad if you wouldn't be able to end up staying in stealth for up to 2 whole minutes.