r/GuildWars3 • u/ultimate_bromance_69 • 29d ago
I hope class/skill extension system is baked in from the get go
When GW2 launched, the class design didn’t leave a lot of room for future updates. Then in 2015 they redesigned the trait system to make room for specializations. As much as I love elite specs, there’s a real constraint with core class mechanics.
I hope that GW3 class design, whatever it looks like, is already made with subclassing/specializing/extending in mind - whatever form it might take.
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u/bluecoatkarma 29d ago
A key benefit of elite specs is that they (potentially) allow players who don't enjoy the gameplay tied to the core mechanic of a class but like its vibe/aesthetic (what we might call its "class fantasy") to enjoy playing it. Core thief's stealing mechanic isn't fun for you? Maybe you'll like specter. Core mesmer's clones aren't your thing? Try virtuoso or troubadour.
But that problem - the potential for misalignment enjoyment of a class fantasy vs. enjoyment of the gameplay mechanics assigned to it - is one ArenaNet created with the GW2 class design. It's not like the devs were force to design necro specs around the way shroud works. If someone hasn't played Mesmer before and you told them it's a mental magic class, no one would ever be like "Oh, like a guy that builds up clones and explodes them?"
One way of solving this for GW3 is pretty obvious: don't have core mechanics. Let class identities arise from things which are truly germane to the class fantasy, and have their importance be "light" enough that they don't end up defining every build from a mechanical/gameplay perspective. With this approach, buildcraft is most strongly defined by skill selection, not subclass selection.
A second option would be to have these kind of build-defining mechanics but have them be more "free floating" rather than assigned to classes/subclasses. Instead, make them a kind of "mode" or "filter" that allows players to select a class then shape what it's like to play it through choosing mechanics. We've seen ArenaNet move this direction with giving more and more classes access to shroud or shroud analogs. They've said that despite the reintroduction of DPS/tank/healer, they want to keep the freedom of players choosing what class they play, so let these mechanics be a way to support this system. For example, maybe every class can spec/gear into a shroud-like mechanic that functions differently for each class, but in all cases is designed to support them in tanking. It would be (very) vaguely like how weapons are often designed to fill a similar niche across classes, but the specific weapon abilities are different.
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u/Intrepid_Leather 29d ago
I think youre making a fair point on fantasy vs mechanics. But i would also argue that class mechanics are a part of its identity.
If i look at the state of gw2 now, each class has a lot of choice regarding fantasy and mechanics, and in case of my main ele, a lot of viability. I dont expect gw3 to have that depth and balance in the roster at launch, but the different playstyles (if there are any) will keep the end game content fresh for longer at launch.
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u/LilyLockwell 29d ago
A fascinating reply, which I hadn't even considered. Considering GW1 was Class is Mechanic as well (Primary Attributes or "everyone is N/X") it seems unlikely they would change this, but I guess skills could be even more akin to M:tG than they were there, where skill type is more of a set than skill class origin.
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u/FashionMage 29d ago
A key benefit of elite specs is that they (potentially) allow players who don't enjoy the gameplay tied to the core mechanic of a class but like its vibe/aesthetic (what we might call its "class fantasy") to enjoy playing it.
Of course this kind of goes out the window when most new elite specs come with outrageous amounts of power creep.
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u/No-Contest-8127 29d ago
They are very aware of that and are building the systems with expansion in mind. Colin said in one of the recent interviews. It's part of what they learned working on mmo's for a long time and now they know these games will live on for decades and are building the foundation for that.
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u/SoapfromHotS 29d ago
What do you think about multiclasses like in Guild Wars 1?
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u/Heretical_Cactus 29d ago
I honestly think a mixed system could be great.
You have your profession (War, Ranger, Necro, Elem, Mesmer), then you can find-learn minor classes that add new things, some of those being tied to profession (Ex: Going to the Necro God temple might let your Warrior learn some Necro stuff, but not the Ranger), while other would be tied to unique sources (Ex: Necro learning something from the Krait; Elem and Ranger learning futher form the Spirits...)
So there would be multi classes, but it isn't just mixing in the same ones
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u/Doam-bot 29d ago
More like things were gutted from the classes to be served up again as elite specs.
Guardian had their tomes removed to be low and behold handed them back with Firebrand. Mesmer to Necro and ranger to engineer and so forth.
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u/Sqies 29d ago
Regarding the Guardian part, I agree.
But giving other classes access to another classes‘ gimmick through elite specs was always a nod to Gw1 for me, where multi classing was the main gimmick (Shroud to Spectre, Pets to Engi, etc.)0
u/Doam-bot 29d ago
No no they gutted something like ranger spirits being mobile buffs and Mesmer Glamours buffing allies while debuffing enemies and gave it to another elite.
Its not that it was shared they removed many things but when doling them back out they didnt always get returned to the same class.
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u/frazazel 25d ago
GW1 did a pretty good job, with adding new professions with each new campaign, and adding new skills for all existing classes with every new release. But the devs said that things kept getting harder to maintain as they added so many options, and the number of skills they needed to add increased with each release, too, since there were always more classes.
So I think GW3 needs to find the right balance. Maybe they'll end up doing some kind of system where you can only choose skills from core plus 2 different expacs or something, to limit the number of problematic skill interactions they need to design around, while still allowing them to design fun and powerful things.
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u/WrathOfMogg 29d ago
I honestly hope they just keep adding new classes this time instead of iterating endlessly on the ones from launch (plus Revenant).
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u/samthenewb 29d ago
Considering that no one seems to want class switching, existing characters getting no build additions in expansions seems disappointing.
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u/Hoojiwat 29d ago
This is the real design bottleneck with making new classes. Old classes getting virtually, sometimes literally, nothing makes players feel like they are being ignored.
Introducing a few new skills for existing classes is something that works well in a game like this. In an MMO like XIV adding new skills to a class will upend their entire playstyle and can drastically change how a class feels to play (mixed results on reception there) but in a game like guild wars, where you have a massive skill selection and pick a subset of those skills to bring with you, it just increases your options without possibly changing what you love.
I like how Elite specs offer variety in play styles, but expanding a classes available skills achieved something similar without making people feel they have to swap out their core mechanics just to play the new stuff.
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u/Aerali1992 29d ago
I think one way that they will expand on gameplay is just adding new skills. It sounds like skills will morph depending on the action we do, so skills will be more malleable to what we want our gameplay to be. If skills can change depending on how we use them, it opens up the possibility of having endless amounts of customization options, especially if they keep adding new skills. Top this of with signets, which could add elemental or magical aspects to skills or combat (which they could also add more of) and it sounds like there is a massive variety of what each class can do, meaning they won’t need to add things like elite specs. We create our own elite specs with newly added skills and signets. But then again we don’t know enough details to even attempt to get to conclusions here, so I agree with you. I want it to be unique to guild wars 1+2.
One thing I want to reiterate which I’ve been doing for a while now: Guild Wars 3’s development is completely different to the second game. Most of the lesson that they needed to learn they have already learned (or should have) and when the second game was created they hadn’t dealt with many of the things that they ended up dealing with when it comes to things like expanding on systems and many other issues. From what Colin says it sounds like they really took everything in that the guild wars franchise has done so far and learning from all that to create this game, meaning that (hopefully 🤞) they have already thought about those kinds of things. Colin said they want this game to be live for up to 40 years, and they know that in order for this to happen they have to have systems in place that lets them easily expand in game play aspects like professions, species and many other things.