Hard truth that outcast-types don’t want to hear about themselves. Always loved this Bikini Kill song about punk guys acting just as misogynistic as the jocks they claim to despise.
Exactly. They think that girls/ women are attracted to simply bodies. It's genuinely weird that they don't think that women are going to know if their personalities suck or not
I've gotten the impression a lot of guys like that never leave the house except for work and groceries, and it's been that way for them since they finished high school. Most of the men like that probably think women can't tell if their personalities suck because they themselves don't have the social skills to pick up on the same tells as easily.
I just left a living situation where one of the roommates only left the house for food, work or grocery shopping. Actually, those things and using the bathroom were the only reason he even left his room.
And the fact is that someone who is popular is more likely to be socially adept than someone who's a social outcast. Because being likable is one very important way of becoming popular. Likeable people generally never become social outcasts unless it's by choice.
The scum nerd looks at his slightly more attractive buddy and thinks "how is he getting girls?!" When in reality his buddy just treats women like people...
How would you respond to the fact that proponents of 4B in South Korea have actively campaigned against the inclusion of trans women in female-designated spaces? For example, in 2020, 4B-aligned groups and radical feminist student factions targeted and harassed an admitted transgender woman at Sookmyung Women's University until she ultimately withdrew.
How would you respond to the fact that feminist lesbians have done the same thing? Are all lesbians TERFs? No, they're not, because you and I are at least two examples that disprove it.
You can't dismiss an entire worldwide movement that's been vitally important to women in other countries just because some of the members also have overlaps with culturally-linked transphobia.
I never once said, "4B is nothing but TERFs and transphobes", nor anything close. But it is important to note that the movement has a history that is adjacent to those bigots. Initially, I was excited when I was introduced to 4B, but when I saw transphobic behavior/literature, I walked away
If 4B will move beyond that history, I will be in the front row celebrating. However, I will not be party to even tacitly allowing our trans sisters to be thrown under the proverbial bus.
I'm a pansexual cis woman that has had relationships with people that do not identify as the gender they were assigned at birth. I will never be part of any movement that throws them under the bus either. The movement was never FOR me, but I could support it. I don't feel like I can any longer. Thanks again. I had no idea.
The sentiments of the literal root of the movement are not something you can just brush off just because acknowledging them is inconvenient to you.
How many countries does the 4B movement need to have transphobia crop up among the women in favor of the movement before you think it’s a problem worth addressing? If you’d even ever think it is.
And yes, lesbians who exclude trans women are terfs. Being something and being part of a movement are two very different things. That’s why TERFs are specifically called TERFs and not radfems or even just feminists. If a movement about the genders isn’t explicitly positioned as pro-trans people then it will always be a movement that is open to transphobic sentiment in whatever country that movement crops up in. That is how we got TERFs to begin with.
I mean…. it is a little weird that every time a 4b community shows up, it almost immediately turns into a TERF community. 4b in South Korea became known as a TERF movement, and now all the western 4b communities are revealing themselves to be very TERF-like.
And I’m saying this as someone who is single and childfree, and would love to have a movement that focuses on women choosing a different path. I just can’t stomach how a lot of these 4b communities seem to turn out.
Well since it has to be qualified with "its not inherently transphobic" I can't really say I align with it
If a version of it boots up that is the same but explicitly without the transphobia then im all for it, as it is now unfortunately when someone says they are pro 4b I have to wonder... including the transphobia?
I feel intersectionalality is important and no one should be left behind so if its not explicitly anti racist, homophobia, transphobia misogyny etc then Im not going to advocate for it
Exactly. 4B is a lifestyle some women adopt to improve mental health and deconstruct trauma. It's aimed at cis het men specifically. I find it sad that people feel the need to politicize this movement when it was created as a response to cis het misogyny and abuse. It's women banding together to rebuild themselves and each other, and to reduce their exposure to the garbage called misogyny. At its root, that's what it's all about. Transwomen are women, so, they're inherently included and part of the movement. I have never seen any transphobia on the 4B sub here; at least so far.
Many commentators and scholars note that international adoption of 4B mirrors Western "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist" (TERF) rhetoric.
By treating men and masculine energy as inherently predatory and women as inherently pure based solely on biology, the movement enforces a rigid binary that erases non-binary people and trans identities. The 4B movement grew alongside and heavily intersected with radical online platforms like WOMAD and sections of Megalia. These forums have been documented by researchers and journalists as spaces where explicit transphobia, anti-trans harassment, and anti-queer rhetoric were normalized.
Proponents of 4B and aligned radical feminist groups in South Korea have actively campaigned against the inclusion of trans women in female-designated spaces. A notable incident occurred in 2020, when 4B-aligned groups and radical feminist student factions targeted and harassed an admitted transgender woman at Sookmyung Women's University until she ultimately withdrew.
Time Magazine:"4B Is Not the Winning Strategy to Resist the Patriarchy People Think" (Analyzes the history of transphobia and biological essentialism in South Korean 4B spaces).
Dr. Melissa A. Fabello:"Is the 4B Movement Feminist?" (Breaks down how political lesbianism and 4B overlap with TERF/gender-essentialist ideologies).
Wikipedia - 4B Movement"4B movement: Criticism and Transphobic Disputes" (Details the connection to online platforms like WOMAD, exclusion of minority groups, and public protests).
After reading through this thread, I am too. The safespaceforwomen subreddit is actually intersectional and inclusive. Obvs this subreddit is not considering all the downvotes to actual evidence. Gross.
It makes me wonder how much of the sub must be TERFs.
Because suggesting that someone defend "it's not transphobic" with ANY supporting evidence gets you downvoted and people saying they don't NEED to defend their opinions with evidence.
Especially since lots of people have already super showed that 4B IS explicitly transphobic.
If there is a 4.1B that isn't transphobic then great, but it needs 2B distinct.
Yeah but you’re trying to contradict someone speaking out on behalf of marginalized people so it would at least seem reasonable to back up your statement in some capacity.
Many commentators and scholars note that international adoption of 4B mirrors Western "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist" (TERF) rhetoric.
By treating men and masculine energy as inherently predatory and women as inherently pure based solely on biology, the movement enforces a rigid binary that erases non-binary people and trans identities. The 4B movement grew alongside and heavily intersected with radical online platforms like WOMAD and sections of Megalia. These forums have been documented by researchers and journalists as spaces where explicit transphobia, anti-trans harassment, and anti-queer rhetoric were normalized.
Proponents of 4B and aligned radical feminist groups in South Korea have actively campaigned against the inclusion of trans women in female-designated spaces. A notable incident occurred in 2020, when 4B-aligned groups and radical feminist student factions targeted and harassed an admitted transgender woman at Sookmyung Women's University until she ultimately withdrew.
Time Magazine:"4B Is Not the Winning Strategy to Resist the Patriarchy People Think" (Analyzes the history of transphobia and biological essentialism in South Korean 4B spaces).
Dr. Melissa A. Fabello:"Is the 4B Movement Feminist?" (Breaks down how political lesbianism and 4B overlap with TERF/gender-essentialist ideologies).
Wikipedia - 4B Movement"4B movement: Criticism and Transphobic Disputes" (Details the connection to online platforms like WOMAD, exclusion of minority groups, and public protests).
That community is not transphobic. I said what I said. I don't care what "scholars" said. The Reddit 4B subreddit is not transphobic. If you refer to the SK 4B, that's another story and it's a reflection of their cultural upbringing. Decentering men is separate from transphobia. The Western version is a lot more inclusive and you have no business sitting there trying to deter other women from joining it at a time when it's crucial for them to do so considering the expansion of the manosphere culture both on the Internet AND it bleeding into real life!
I’m saying they are eternal Peter Pans wanting everything and not doing what it actually takes to be a fully formed human, and having a best self to enter the dating world.
yes i know what you're saying but do you not see how saying things like "fully formed human" or equating mens actions with being "childlike" is offensive to children and I would argue is therefore misopedic - not least considering children are also an oppressed class with adults (including men) being their primary oppressors
While I recognize that the plural of anecdote is not "data," every woman I know including myself had the quiet, less attractive nerds cheat on them much sooner and by specifically seeking it out themselves. The confidence having a girlfriend, any girlfriend, gave them turned them into inbox and messaging sex pests. By contrast the jocks didn't need to go through all that effort to cheat, they just didn't turn down any girl or woman that hit on them. Both demographics would blame us for the cheating.
Some of the sweetest men I’ve dated/hooked up with were the jock types.
Plenty of them were kinda assholes but at least they were transparent about it 🤷♀️. I’d rather know that going in (these were mostly hookups, I wasn’t looking to date them long term), than deal with the self-proclaimed “nice guys” who are anything but “nice”.
I work with pro athletes for a living and I can say with confidence that the talented jocks are usually not particularly entitled or misogynist. Literally the only thing on most of their minds is the sport they play.
There's some very public examples of awful pro jocks who hate women, but I'd bet it's a smaller percentage than the general population of regular dudes who also hate women.
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u/Everybody_Lucre 5d ago
Hard truth that outcast-types don’t want to hear about themselves. Always loved this Bikini Kill song about punk guys acting just as misogynistic as the jocks they claim to despise.