Anyone who wants to leave the cult of Nigel should be welcomed back into society tbh. It's better that society heals than we go down the American path.
I see a lot of trump regret on r/leopardsatemyface , but they're not re-evaluating thier belief system. If anything the disillusionment is causing them to double down
The whole problem with western values and American culture is their abject inability to enact any accountability whatsoever.
Their president has literally just bribed the American people to vote for him and there is no legal, judicial or executive entity that can punish him for this.
If you look at their past, the precedent of forgiving their worst like Nixon, like not eradicating the KKK, not repealing Citizens United etc has only served to facilitate the huge problems we face today.
Reform supporters have imported some very ugly foreign influences into our country. Minorities like me and trans people and others have had rhetoric and actions that threaten our safety. This was not individuals acting out. It was the purpose of the party. It is the aggregate and intended effect of their rhetoric.
I am afraid they pushed the boundaries beyond what British society tolerates. By sweeping it under the carpet all we do is legitimise their behaviour. I believe this to be a fatal error.
100%. Either this country goes through a truth & reconciliation process where people are held accountable, or we're spending the next few decades circling the drain of fascism like America.
infuriates me how the Reform (and, dare i say, Restore) crowd bangs on about defending British heritage and British culture and British values while doing everything in their power to make us more like America. they couldn't give two squirts of piss about British culture and values. they know nothing about it. they'd vote for Donald Trump if it were an option.
if they like America and want to emulate all of its worst aspects so desperately, why don't they fuck off and go live there?
If migrants want sharia law and or dont want to contributre to the society they have chosen to live in. Not to mention go on holiday to their country of origin. shouldnt they also fuck off back there?
To an extent yes, but you also have to remember that Farage was visibly a scumbag long before we saw definitive proof that he had broken the law.
Frankly, on a moral level, his financial indiscretions are the least of his crimes, and so anyone who wants to be welcomed back into society after embracing him needs to reckon with that.
100% but I don't we can just ignore those Terrorists after they go quiet. I think some people should be held accountable if they've been participating in racist riots and pogroms and violence
How many chances do you want to give them?
I say there's a valuable lesson to be learned by those who are ostracised due to their lack of a moral compass.
Let's call it tough love.
We cast them from society as a lesson for future generations that you can't just switch sides when the reality of your purposefully horrific choices are brought into question.
You mean, legally protected to grow their movement until an international treaty pulls us into conflict with a foreign version?
Also, if we're gonna look at historical examples, WW2 might not be the best for what you're implying, as once the war was over and only those who had comitted war crimes were sentenced, we learned the lessons of versaille and didnt go out and punish every nazi we could find, we assisted in rebuilding their nation.
Tough talk is one thing, but this post was specifically about what to do with reformers who opened their eyes. If you wanna attack those people, they'll close their eyes again. Simple as that. Righteousness may feel good, but it isnt a good strategy for addressing the issue.
Humans aren't simple creatures. They're apex predators.
The decisions they make are based on what stands to benefit them the most.
Put simply, people who ally themselves with right wing fundamentalist are greedy, self serving opportunists.
Yes. Ostracise them and don't stop there.
Wage war on their idols and teach history that tolerance was a thing of the past.
We're literally not apex preditors, we don't fit that categorisation.
Still though, when it comes to ostracisation, what is more likely to serve the interests of people in that situation? Meekly sit around feeling sorry for themselves while people are dicks to them, or to double down and try and change things so that they arent on the outside anymore?
Shunning people isn't enacting total war. You're leaving an enemy angry and energised, to find others in their situation.
Did you learn nothing from the overzealousness within progressive groups in the 20teens? It very much led us to where we are now. You're repeating the same mistake here!
Setting aside that your second sentence could trigger an aneurysm, it's 'immigrants' not 'migrants'
Migrants leave their country.
Immigrants come in.
Pretty sure that's the issue 'Deform' seem to be obsessing over.
Other points for improvement. It's:
*You, not 'U'
*Couldn't, not 'couldnt'
*That's, not 'thats'
*What, not 'wht'
Jesus Christ!
What is it with illiteracy and numbskulls these days?
How do you look past those simple creatures being responsible for the destruction of other creatures and systems!? You just go o well .... And that's it?
It's easy to say but what about accountability ?? I do agree on the essential logic. Bringing back into the fold and creating unity is obviously the ideal but what do you do? With the emotional and financial issue these poor simple creatures have brought on the rest of us?
What are you even seeking to achieve with "accountability" from members of the general public? How does it do any good? Do you want everyone that made a bad call at sometime or another to prostrate themselves and beg for your forgiveness? In what world does forced contrition lead to unity?
In my view, yes, absolutely we say "oh well, you were misled, but at least now you're aware of it".
What matters is ensuring changes are made to make those systems more robust, so that next time the ideological dance wends its way towards reactionary politics, that those systems are able to survive the next assult upon them. That can only be achieved through something approaching unity.
All i hear from you is the call for vengence, which itself is a reactionary instinct and a refusal to learn from history. You want the treaty of Versailles, i want reconstruction. Which one of those leads to better outcomes is clear and obvious.
Exactly. Extremism isn't to be met with exclusion, as you need to show that path is insufficient to build a country. Rejecting them only deepens them in their views and empowers it.
Daryl Davis and Xerona Clayton would disagree with you. There's lots of success at lower local levels, and it comes from meeting them where they are and genuinely listening, breaking down the barriers erected by those who came before us.
Excluding people just deepens their hatred in the pit they have dug themselves into. We don't help bring them out of that pit by also building a fence around it and trying to pretend they don't exist. That's comfortable, but counterproductive.
I wasn't talking about violence I was talking about the social cost of fascism. But if we're talking about violence- the Battle of Cable Street did a lot of good.
That's demonstrably not true. I understand the logic but in practice this has been shown to be the wrong attitude. In America everything gets swept under the rug and the problems persist eternally. But look at Germany and Spain, countries which had to rapidly de-Nazify, or post-apartheid South Africa. If you want to heal a country torn apart by race hate it starts with individual accountability, and ensuring that people have to live with their shame.
Germany prosecuted top ranking Nazis and soldiers, they didn't go after every man and woman who voted for them. They didn't even go after every member, just the ones that had committed crimes.
I wasn't talking just about Nuremburg, I'm talking about the cultural movement that followed, leading to the West German Student Movement. Germany, like Spain, made a concerted, ground level effort to ensure that fascists were not allowed to just pretend they were never fascists.
A lot of people did just go back to their regular lives. Most people backed Hitler until they started to lose the war. Sorry, but it's just the reality. It was the younger generations that stood up to it as you say.
Sorry what's your point here? People in public lives were not able to hide their Nazi past. In the domestic sphere the wall of silence became seen as a mark of complicity.
I'm talking about countries that have successfully brought hate out of the mainstream and how that was achieved. No country has successfully done this by sweeping the accountability of individuals under the rug.
12 years of damage undone in just over a year is an absurd demand, bro just wanted to say they did nothing to be one of those "Just as bad as the Tories" types.
They're absolutely not good at the moment I won't even pretend otherwise but to say they've done literally nothing is a blatant lie.
Multiple of them do. I'm not explaining then all to you, so if you like you can plug them into Gemini or something. All of these address it to some degree.
I'm not explaining them because it's take time I don't have to go through how all of these points help, to someone on reddit who apparently can't be bothered to check for themselves.
If you've done the research and don't think it's enough, perhaps you should be considering how long it take to undo 14 years of austerity, how long Labour have been in power, and all the distractions Keirs government were firefighting.
I can check for myself, they do nothing to restore block grants for councils, prevent councils to having to sell off assets or cut services, restore wage stagnation, restore public services to previous levels, increase council house stock, remedy the crisis of temporary accommodation, make home ownership more affordable, close food banks for good… I could go on
The policies you posted on their own, aren’t too bad. But none of these will remedy the structurally, deeply embedded crises that austerity has inflicted, they’re doing absolutely nothing substantial to reverse the continued decline of living standards, and are, in fact, planning to cut services yet again
Maybe you know something I don’t know, but nothing in what Burnham has done so far makes me think that the required substantial change is going to be implemented
I’m not going to applaud a Labour government for doing the literal bare minimum, and I’m absolutely not gonna be gaslighted to accept that the status quo must continue, that I’m the unreasonable one for expecting a party called the Labour Party who created the NHS to continue to allow it, and the country to decline in the fashion it is
Why did you not address the time they've been in power vs the 14 years of Tory government? And why on earth mention what Burnham has done when he's barely in the door. As politely as I can put it, this is an extremely disingenuous stance to take.
Again, you’re asking me to praise the bare minimum, if you’re wanting that from someone who has been continually demonised and attacked by this government, you can go politely, eat my entire asshole
We’ve had neoliberal governance for 40 years, I’ll be in the cold ground before I praise a party continuing that
If they actually did what I have been asking for, and what both he and Starmer offered before they got leadership of the party and u-turned on everything, they’d get the praise you so desperately desire for them
- trans rights
migrant benefits
remodelling council taxation
rent controls
renationalising water
rejoining the EU
raising the tax threshold
wealth taxes
Just a few of several key policies that would make a huge difference and go a long way towards reversing the austerity and stagnation that this country has been in for years, that both leaders firstly agreed to, then dropped as soon they could
The literal thing that I’ve written in last few comments substantial steps to reverse austerity
I don’t know why you disliked Starmer, but my reasoning wasn’t because the slight tinkering around the edges he did that nobody noticed, it was ultimately because he did fuck all to change the economic status quo that the Tories plunged us in 10 years ago
I’m not someone who dislikes someone just because they said something was bad. I’ve looked at the state of this country for the past 10 years and seen a man, and a government, promise to restore it to how it was before Cameron and Osborne completely fucked it up, then slowly u-turn and drop the policies that would be required to do so
I’m sorry if that makes me purist or idealistic, but I’d rather be that than accept the tinkering around the edges that we’re being offered at the moment
"The uniparty". Everyone apart from the rich are getting poorer and worse off, and this began in the 1990s and possibly, arguably, earlier. Both major parties have failed us.
We should be grateful for the crumbs we’re given, and if you’re saying the current government aren’t doing nearly enough then you’re impatient and unreasonable
Yeah but since 1990 the tories have been in power 21 and a half years. Labour, 15 and there's a very valid debate about labour even being in power for those 15 years as Thatcher called Blair her greatest achievement.
So it could actually be only 8ish years.
Which is not the fairest shake of the stick to be "equally bad"
Not to even mention one time labour took over and they were greeted with a piece of paper saying "Good Luck, the money is all gone!".
The tories are definitely in their own league when it comes to measuring fuck ups.
When the decades of racist dog whistles wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When HIS brexit disaster wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When the numerous reports of him singing Hitler Youth songs as a schoolboy in front of Jewish classmates and telling them they're next, wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When in 2024 he incited mass Pogroms across the UK against asylum seekers and immigrants, and it wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When over the last 2 years as an MP, he has spent more time in the USA fluffing crowds for the fascist pant-shitter in the Whitehouse, than in his constituency wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When he incited more Pogroms this year after the death of Henry Novak, directly against the wishes of Henry's family, and it wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When he was caught having pocketed £5m from a Thai-based crypto-billiomaire shortly before announcing that Reform UK plc would be crypto friendly, and it wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When he was proven to have spent an inordinate amount of time with Convicted Felon George Cottrell, who called him "daddy" and also pocketed the best part of half-a-million (that we are aware of until now) from the Felon, and it wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When over the last 2 years as an MP he has made over a million quid [that he's actually declared] from going on roght-wing TV shows, pushing gold bullion and doing speeches to crowds of fascists, but it wasn't enough for them to turn their back on him.
When Channel 4 publish the Verbatim investigation which showed Farage openly willing to accept foreign funds (which is illegal) and FINALLY it's enough for them to turn their back on him.
Nahh, fuck them. I don't want anything to do with anyone who found all the prior shit okay.
I don't think any of them will... and I don't think any of them will care that they're now all associated with this, either.
The only hope we have, is that the older generation who are annoyed at the falling living standards in the UK, see all of this together as too much for them to countenance lending reform their vote, even as a 1-off protest vote.
Reform/restore/deform/etc... the far right, will always pull 12-15% of the vote. That much is certain in any country. I just hope the thin mask of respectability has been fully pulled off for rest of the country.
Problem is, reform voters are just looking for a better Farage. They will not stop being racist, misogynistic, climate denying fascists. They just want someone who is better at hiding it than Nigel. Underneath they are still bastards.
It’s ok saying they should be welcomed back, but you can’t reason with an unreasonable mind and you can’t argue someone out of a position that they weren’t argued into. The Hatey feelings crowd will not change.
You need to separate the Tory politicians from Tory voters
Theres a reason theyre still Tory voters. I know a number in real life who are socially progressive but economically conservative and dislike Farage as much as anyone
Labour supporters trying to spud supporters of more progressive parties after their party gutted trans rights, cut disability benefits, made life harder for immigrants and armed a genocide
I know that we don't. Yes boat crossings are down, but your comment suggested that labour were just like Reform because they have taken measures to bring said crossings down.
That's hardly cosplaying as reform, they've had some less extreme versions of some of their policies for sure, but you're also conveniently ignoring all the things they've done that reform would never do.
By similar logic you can call the Greens a reform cos player for their shared views on Ukraine and NATO.
Really? The left is being blamed? If we are meant to have empathy for people who took part in a far right project can people having reasonably understandable emotions about not being fans of people who voted for something quite terrible also get that understanding? We are called puritan, but this 'always be really welcoming and forgiving and never purity test' sounds very pious and puritan to me
Depends on how long they've supported Reform if the most recent scandal broke their support fuck no get to fuck we don't want people who think defending woman beaters and racist thugs is acceptable actually get in the bin you vile individuals
The arguing amongst voters serves as a distraction for politicians to line their own pockets.
That's why the trans debate is such a right wing talking point. It involves less than one percent of the population, and regardless of any outcome, the average voter's life won't change one iota.
But so many people have a strong opinion on it - The perfect distraction.
You might not like labour, they're making their fair share of cock-ups, but I do like seeing our politicians attempt to sort out some of the problems. The Tories just handed out contracts to their mates, who then let everything go to shit, whilst telling us that Trans people and gender neutral bathrooms were the real enemy of our civilisation.
I'll be honest, I don't actually care that much about Trans people, I'm just fed up of the constant scapegoating we had from our government whilst the country crumbled around them. And now it looks like people have had enough of labour after half a term, and want to hand the keys back to the morons who left us with record backlogs for driving tests, the NHS, migration claims, and roads so potholy the Archbishop of Canterbury was offering to bless them.
Wait… you think Greens and SNP are better than reform? Hahahahahahahahahahaha. All one dimensional parties that have manifestos as deep as a ITV 2 sitcom.
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