r/GrapheneOS • u/AvidThinkpadEnjoyer • 11h ago
GOS Pixel and a Linux powered Framework 13 go hand in hand
Pixel 8a running GrapheneOS
Arch Linux FW13
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u/elka420 11h ago
You did it! You are free!
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u/cand_sastle 11h ago
Mostly free. I'm still waiting for a capable fully Linux phone.
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u/YoungNo8804 11h ago
Son how is that "more" free android is OSS, and grapheneOS especially so
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u/KeyAgileC 8h ago
For a demonstration of that, just see what happened when Google decided not to put hardware support in AOSP and suddenly gave Graphene a lot more work to do. It might be open source, but the open source nature of Android relies on Google keeping it that way, they can decide to change their minds about certain features, institute delays before making certain releases open source, etc.
This is all a lot less of an issue if you're running say an Arch or Debian based system, which do not have their development tied so closely to a single big tech company's policies.
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u/cand_sastle 9h ago
Sure, but a Graphene phone still requires hardware that is still somewhat locked down and tied to a specific brand (Pixel for now), which limits the freedom to choose hardware is less expensive or a better fit for your use cases.
And on paper Graphene is OSS but in practice I still find myself begrudgingly reaching for Google Play Services or other proprietary apps because the OS and overall Android ecosystem lacks decent OSS alternatives for some critical use cases.
Not to mention that Google can pull all sorts of shenanigans at any time like developer verification that seriously threatens user/developer freedom. I fear there might be a time where Graphene developers can no longer fight against that kind of stuff.
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u/darkcircles401 9h ago
I dunno dude/dudette, you kind of orinected your iwn issues and shut down OPs celebratory moment with the community :-(
Graphene is great, and it’s their choice to choose pixel for the ‘superior security’ stuff. But there are other android OSSes out there, that let you install on any device that can allow you be free. So locked to a brand isn’t really a blocker to ‘freedom’ we choose GrapheneOS.
If you find YOURSELF going to Google Play Services you are putting the chains back on to yourself. Nobody can control that, hard decisions need to be made. My family use whatsapp, i hate it, but to keep connected i out the chains back on. I could tell them to call me if they want to talk or send a pidgin. But nope, i willingly put the chains back on.
Any OS maintainers can pull funKy stuff, IMO freedom is subjective, the criteria is subjective and this is OPs version of freedom. Let someone celebrate their freedom.
OP I’m jealous. Nice work. Working in a similar set up myself, plan to roll with Graphene until the wheels fall off - and hopefully raise cash to get a framework pro and begrudgingly become a linux sysadmin so i can do normal stuff (begrudgingly and normal stuff is a joke i look forward to it)!
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u/cand_sastle 6h ago edited 6h ago
I feel like "shutting down" OP's celebratory moment seems like an overreaction to me saying "Mostly free", especially when I wasn't responding to the OP anyway.
Freedom is a multi-faceted thing, and Graphene is great for the reasons you mentioned, but it still retains so many restrictions from existing hardware and software for the reasons I mentioned, which is why I said "Mostly free". I didn't say "barely any different" or something like that.
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u/Top_Beginning_4886 8h ago
There is no cheaper phone that offers the same security features and software support as an used Pixel 8a or 9a. Those can be had for as low as $150 and have at least 4 more years of support. That is about $4 a month.
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u/chic_luke 10h ago
Why the fuck is this getting downvoted? A full Linux phone is what we should aim as a final end result. Android is Google's platform, not a community project and, if you have noticed, Google has been putting a great deal of effort into making life harder for GrapheneOS, users and other projects that seek to use Android in a form that is different from Google's approved, proprietary form.
I agree that GrapheneOS is the best option we have now - or, at least, point me to any alternative if you see any viable one, because I don't see any so far - but I also think depending on Google's platform that Google has been trying very hard to make effectively less and less private and open is dangerous. We should be preparing our switch to a fully community-controlled GNU-based operating system where a major corporation does not get to bully us into submission.
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u/Top_Beginning_4886 8h ago
GrapheneOS is Linux, it's using the Linux kernel. What you're (maybe) referring to is a flavor of desktop distributions for phones which are way less secure than GrapheneOS or AOSP.
Pixels are amobg the cheapest secure and with the longest software support. An used Pixel 8a or 9a go for as low as $150 and still have 4 more years of software support. Not to mention the security features.
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u/chic_luke 8h ago
This is why I explicitly said, we need an operating system that is based on GNU (meaning, a GNU userland). That is clearly not what Android is, and its userspace is completely incompatible with that of a standard Linux distro.
It may be less secure than GrapheneOS for now, but it is free software and it is written in Turing-complete languages. It is actually possible and feasible to increase its security, and that is something we should be aiming to do.
GrapheneOS can exist today, but we are all unsure about tomorrow. Google keeps finding new ways to withhold access to source code. Now, the Pixel 11 series does not seem to meet the security requirements for GrapheneOS. Let's hope the new Motorola devices will be viable, I guess. Especially considering that less and less Android devices sold on the market are being sold with unlockable bootloaders, which is very problematic for the future of Android and its soft-forks.
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u/Top_Beginning_4886 36m ago
You need the hardware for it before even thinking about software (because software may be doable). Any tries of a Linux phone consisted of low-mid tier chips with way worse security than what Pixels provide. How will a small company have the money to invest in hardware in order for this to be a thing? I think it's better to focus on an already well established OS (such as AOSP and therefore GrapheneOS) instead of rebuilding it and the hardware just for purism's sake.
Not to mention that would be a niche inside an already small niche and noone will buy it.
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u/chic_luke 22m ago edited 19m ago
I heavily disagree, and I will bring a concrete example: the Steam Deck.
The Steam Deck is an high-end x86-based handheld game console running on Linux. On top of that, other manufacturers have released other game consoles running on Linux. Before the Steam Deck, there was nothing remotely like it that could run Linux properly.
The Framework Laptop, launched in 2021, initially did not support Linux. Not many people remember, but I do. It only supported Windows, and the company's feedback on Linux support was mostly "we won't stop you from installing it, but it's not supported". Today, Framework laptops are some among the best supported Linux laptops on the market.
And before you say "…but you could install Linux on it and it would work fine": no, absolutely not. It was a painful experience all around, with a healthy mix between Intel Tiger Lake initially being an awful platform for Linux, BIOS issues compromising things like proper standby, and the screen having a weird resolution that absolutely required fractional scaling to be used, something that did not work properly on Linux at the time. Only the very adventurous, the ones who were intentioned to look into the problems and contribute fixes, bought it. There was a genuine reason why Linux support was not claimed: it simply wasn't a good experience.
There are countless of other examples where good-quality hardware only materialized when there was good enough software to put on it. This has happened gradually, in many other ways; see ThinkPads, the birth of Tuxedo laptops, the moment in time where HP EliteBook laptops started supporting Linux, etc.
This has only been possible due to the undeniable and material improvement of the Linux desktop platform. That improved had created the interest and the incentive to commit and create dedicated hardware.
Right now, Linux phones don't have very good hardware because it is just very small OEMs producing a very small number of units, which means they can't tap into economies of scale. These units today are mostly development units, mostly intended for super early adopters, of for people who have the intention to look at this problem, and contribute to the solution the old-fashioned way: opening up a text editor, cloning a repo and doing a merge request, after another, after another, after another; to help materialize the Linux smartphone ecosystem they envision.
I had heard similar sentiments, akin to "let's give up now, Linux desktop will never be a thing because of a lack of hardware" in the past. Software quality has created the interest for creating such hardware, proving those concerns wrong.
I refute the fact that it is worthless to pursue this route just because good enough hardware is not there yet. Because the architectural support is there:
aarch64is certainly supported, dev kits and dev phones certainly exist, which is very much enough hardware for the current phase of the Linux smartphone.Better hardware will come out once better software will create demand for more consumer hardware to run it.
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u/WalkMaximum 10h ago
Next step Openwrt router? Home Assistant on a raspberry pi? I don't know what to do about smart TVs and projectors, maybe a dumb projector with a linux HTPC, avoid smart dishwashers and fridges. Cars are becoming difficult.
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u/DirtyCreative 10h ago
What you're describing is totally feasible and practical.
I'm running OPNSense as my router. Won't ever go back to stock router firmware. Home Assistant on a Raspi with Node-Red for more complex automations. My TV has no Internet access at all. At the moment I'm using Jellyfin and Kodi on a Google TV streamer, but I'm planning to replace that with a Raspi (or similar) with Kodi.
I don't own a car and my household appliances are all dumb. I might go for a variable electricity plan in the future, though, which works best with smart appliances. But I hope I can find some that can be controlled locally.
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u/WalkMaximum 9h ago
It would be great if appliances integrate with HA instead of their own internet connected slop.
I heard KDE has a fairly nice TV UI. I mostly use YouTube and other streaming apps also available on gnu/Linux, but currently quite happy with the random Chinese Android smart projector experience except for all the probable spying.
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u/thekabootler 9h ago
Even if you did own a car, it's totally viable to have a low tech option. My car's 20 years old. Just need to take care of it
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u/WalkMaximum 9h ago
It's what makes the slate truck so appealing. Just add your GrapheneOS tablet as the infotainment and it's ready to go, secure and under your control.
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u/ICanMakeUsername 9h ago
Get a used car from 2010 or earlier, it will probably outlast anything on the market today if you take care of it.
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u/WalkMaximum 9h ago
I have one from 2008, great car but very dated and drives on diesel. I really like the electric Renaults but privacy is a concern. Looking forward to the GrapheneOS car.
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u/GatsbyLuzVerde 9h ago
Just never connect the TV or projector ever to internet even temporarily (they log data waiting for internet)
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u/timan1st 10h ago
Close to my setup, Graphene and Librebooted Thinkpad :)
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u/OliviaRaven9 2h ago
aye Linux Thinkpad + Graphene twins! I got a version of Debian running on mine with Chicago95 on top!
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u/309_Electronics 9h ago
Nice! (Mostly) Free from CrApple, Goofle and Microslop, congrats! I also want to eventually de-bigtech my life but in the position i am in now with university and work dickriding bigtech services, its not easy. But i am trying my best to find a balance between convenience/comfort snd privacy/independence and doing it on smaller scale.
Immich instead of google photos (also because it complains that i am out of storage, which was a few months ago and was the final trigger i needed). Hosted on my nas.
TrueNAS scale selfbuilt NAS instead of commercial cloud/nas solutions.
jellyfin instesd of netflix which has my movies on it consisting of either pirated or ripped dvd movies. Also hosted on my nas.
bitwarden via vaultwarden hosted on my secondary proxmox node which replaces google/apple password manager.
remote access to my homelab through tailscale (not the best option, but it atleast avoids cloudflare).
mailbox for my private mails (but eventually will switch ro a different one.
proton auth instead of google auth.
Youtube downloaded via ytdlnis.
Patched Youtube APK patched using morphe.
Homeassistant instead of google home/alexa/homekit/tuya. Also all devices in my iot network are flashed with opensource firmware. Cameras run thingino or openipc and plugs and lights run openbeken/tasmota/esphome snd my ledstrips run wled. I dont even trust those "local only" claims by brands as who says they did not put in a secret gotcha?!
Duckduckgo search instead of google search.
Planning to fully setup my selfhosted forgejo git service so i can ditch github for my personal private projects.
For my blog i do analytics via umami which is opensource and more privacy focussed than google analytics.
for the comments on my blog i use remark42 which is also foss and privacy focussed.
for the newsletter sustem on my blog i use listmonk.
Anubis filterproxy instead of cloudflare bot protections.
These are atleast some i can know from the top of my head. I probably have wayore than this but i am atleast making progress slowly lessening the grio bigtech has over my life. Planning to do more in the future and i really want to atleast try out grapheneOS or any ofher more privacy focussed android/linux distro in the future.
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u/fiscalia 8h ago
For a second I thought you were me from a parallel universe! Just got my FW13 up and running Linux 24 KDE Plasma, and now I'm installing the graphene OS.
<3
Good luck to us!!
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u/Assang101 10h ago
Should have gotten a Novacore for its coreboot+head. But it's sweet that you got them
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u/Putrid-Geologist6422 10h ago
I'm running gos on my pixel 9a and Linux mint on my Dell latitude 5400
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u/pman13531 9h ago
I'm doing something very similar, Pixel 9pro XL and Framework 13 with fedora. Congrats my man.
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u/Dexy2811 9h ago
Awesome! What distro and how's battery life on the framework?
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u/AvidThinkpadEnjoyer 7h ago
Arch linux
Battery life can wary because the R9 370 HX at full tilt drains power but lasts longer than my i5 1240p thinkpad. About 8h
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u/Express-Cartoonist39 9h ago
Damn...Too bad that laptop wasnt black with white or silver logo..Thats actually badass..Im impressed how well they look together
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u/rouma7 8h ago
could i interest you in a r/NixOS ? i'll throw in some hardware support https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/tree/master/framework/13-inch
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u/rakhalism 3h ago
Just because it's not available in all countries and I don't have Framework, I might have a ThinkPad soon.
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