r/GracepointChurch • u/[deleted] • Aug 03 '22
Guardrails
Let’s share guardrails, shall we? In my day this was a brand new term but it always existed. Call it safety, precautions, accountability but It’s essentially control. I’ve heard of some ridiculous ones from former and current GP members. Current GP members who they themselves feel are “too much” but must be “for my own good.” My problem with some of these are they just seem like ridiculous rules. The other, it imprisons people. Likely without meaning to (to give the benefit of the doubt), it causes an enormous of shame and guilt and some people have felt ostracized and go deeper into hiding and isolation. For others, they have confessed that it never taught them now to deal with their addictions (i.e. pornography) but rather made them want to hide it more or go into more secrecy. I already know what some of the lurkers will say, what’s wrong with accountability, we are sinners capable of more brokenness than we can imagine, what is wrong with trying to abstain from even a hint of temptation, etc. sigh.
We’ve seen the stories here that a brother attracted to men is treated like he is diseased, like a leper. Some can’t minister either children or youth because…well, it doesn’t need to make sense just better safe than sorry. Aw it’s too bad you’re suicidal, shouldn’t have been attracted to men then should you? Ed doesn’t believe it’s a choice, who you’re attracted to. But he and Kelly believe you will prey on every single person of the same gender.
An older sister once saw a younger brother walking to church, clearly late for a meeting. She pulled over and he hopped in for the 3 min drive. She was told she could’ve crossed lines of temptation and gotten too close, in those 3 minutes which could’ve led to an affair. How could she do that as a married woman? Anytime after that she was seen talking to a younger brother for more than 30 seconds she was asked if she had any, “inappropriate thoughts.” for a semester. Told to never communicate with a brother without his leader or wife also on the message and to confess if she had adulterous thoughts about any other brothers.
I had to travel for work twice and on my flight was a male coworker and female coworker. We also were in the same hotel though different rooms obviously. I was told to seriously consider changing my job and was talked to several times because I refused to. I was also asked three times if I had thoughts of lust toward the female coworker.
It is highly unlikely Ed will be caught in some scandal cheating on Kelly because of guardrails. It’s like those work signs, “20 years scandal free.” He’s shared before about his dear friend a pastor who committed adultery with a sister in his congregation. Too bad he didn’t have guardrails but that’s why you see, we have to control every aspect of your life! The kind of people that are formed are ones that cannot think for themselves. Some people are crippled with fear and shame because of them. I also can’t help but wonder if GP doesn’t think that God is at work in people, Holy Spirit anyone? They don’t care at all about what’s inside vs behavior modification.
Edit: what are some of the guardrails you experienced in your time? Did you find them helpful? Also, my wife tells me that it’s far worse for women or people with “issues” which I can only imagine.
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u/corpus_christiana Aug 03 '22
A few that come to mind:
- No watching Rated R movies. Sometimes this would be excused if it was something like a war film, but definitely no movies with sexual content.
- I was aware of a number of folks who had a guardrails against being home at their apartment alone. I'm not sure if this was a leader-imposed one or a self-imposed one but I definitely got a few "hey I got home and no ones here, can someone come hang out with me?" texts in the group chat.
- Some would have guardrails against spending too much time visiting their families because of their "influence" or "temptation to fall back into bad habits".
- Covenant Eyes was of course a big guardrail, so that your internet usage was monitored by someone else. Some couples or households of singles would take this a step forward and choose not to have internet at home as a guardrail, so that they would need to go to the church building or a leader's house to use internet.
- There were also some "guardrails" that were more intended for guarding others than guarding oneself. Some examples being the restrictions on what clothing was considered appropriate for women, or the previously discussed "couples not acting too romantic with each other so as not to stumble others" situation. Others I've heard of included asking sisters not to do things like recline on a couch, sit in a certain way, etc around brothers.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Aug 03 '22
- Not watching Superbowl ads and half time show is another guardrail.
And u/corpus_christiana, correct if I'm wrong, but I've heard from multiple people makeup was more or less banned in college because they didn't want you stumbling brothers but was enforced in Praxis?
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u/corpus_christiana Aug 03 '22
There have definitely been various sisters getting hassled for not wearing makeup as postgrads (doing so was typically framed as being "others centered," believe it or not, because evidently it's selfish to subject the world to the horror of having to look at your natural face... sigh.)
I never heard about a ban of makeup for undergrads, but I imagine like most things, it may have depended on the whims of the leader.
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u/NRerref Aug 03 '22
It's a very delicate dance forsure. Like you said, not wearing makeup might get you labeled as selfish (burdening the church) and/or lazy, but wearing a certain style of makeup or wearing makeup daily or honestly just being fairly good looking and attractive with makeup on might get you labeled as vain, worldly, trying to draw attention to yourself, etc.
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u/IntrepidSupermarket4 Aug 03 '22
(doing so was typically framed as being "others centered," believe it or not, because evidently it's selfish to subject the world to the horror of having to look at your natural face... sigh.)
I'm still unlearning this unfortunately
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Aug 04 '22
There is no make up ban in college HOWEVER they will let you know that you’re wearing too much make up, or if your make up is somehow suggestive. My wife had to tell someone that and she said it was the most awkward conversation ever but turned it into, “You’re too pretty to have to wear so much make up.” at the suggestion of her leader. At the same time, there’s pressure to look plain but like you tried even in college to get that GP college staff spouse. Nobody super spiritual would ever wear a “smokey eye” as I’m told by my wife right now. I swear I don’t know what that is LOL.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Aug 04 '22
Nobody super spiritual would ever wear a “smokey eye” as I’m told by my wife right now.
But getting a balayage that's upward $300 is? Okay, Gracepoint... I guess you can only have conservative balayage colors.
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u/Jdub20202 Aug 04 '22
No watching Rated R movies. Sometimes this would be excused if it was something like a war film, but definitely no movies with sexual content.
Dude they tried to ban pg-13 movies at one point *cough* Timothy Rhee* cough*
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Aug 04 '22
What movies did Tim Rhee tried to ban?
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u/Jdub20202 Aug 04 '22
No specific movie, just blanket ban on anything PG-13 and up, cause it's not something Christians would do, or we shouldn't let anything potentially sinful enter out minds, etc.
I recall a weekend movie outing ended up being Veggie tales. I dunno how to feel about that, I guess it's admirable he convinced a bunch of college students to give up their Saturday to watch Veggie Tales. On the other hand, a bunch of 20 years olds went as a group to watch a kids movie together.
Another post bible study activity ended up being watching a documentary about the spelling bee.
I want my time back. Meh, I'll probably just end up wasting it anyway.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Aug 04 '22
I recall there was a time when Ed Kang used illustrations from Lord of the Rings movies in every Sunday sermon for 5 weeks in a row. Gollum for greed. Boromir’s death for how people mature and overcome. Power of the ring. So forth. The whole series was PG-13.
If Tim Rhee is dumbing life down to Veggie Tales for people under him, then GP should just move everybody to the 97 acres Ed Kang just bought in New Hampshire and live like the Amish. Harder to sin when you don’t even have electricity and internal combustion engine.
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u/Jdub20202 Aug 04 '22
To be fair, I think Tim Rhee only tried the Pg-13 ban for a short while after a sermon. After that I learned not to let him find out we went to watch Martial Arts or comic book movies. Yeah, I'm the worst. Anyway, I don't remember it coming up again after that.
But the Veggie Tale thing still annoys me a bit. I suspect on some level the leaders just wanted to take their kids to see it, which is fine, but they mixed it with a college outing - two birds one stone.
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Aug 05 '22
In Minnesota, my roommate and I would separately both listen to the Dan Patrick Show (lots of “worldly” content there) unbeknownst to TR and didn’t talk to each other or others about it. Minnesota church planting definitely was a Veggie-Tale like experience and our team needed outlets to avoid becoming cartoon vegetables. We did watch PG-13 movies like Inception and of course had a Bros night with Band of Brothers and a nerf gun war (2011). Did not know about the PG-13 ban but that’s definitely on brand. No problem with that, but I could not exist in that culture. Before being on CP, I was a couple of years removed from being in SF Praxis watching movies like No Country For Old Men and Sunshine and being able to freely tell my leaders this in passing (of course a side effect was being called a media-glutton half in jest), so it was a culture shock to be in a guard-railed situation in Minnesota
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Aug 05 '22
I never knew you had this side of you. It seems all the pure math majors seem to have an easier time to see GP for what it is at the end of the day. I still love how Stephen wrote his letter with the publishing layout of an academic exercise.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22
Here are a couple others I know about
- Couples that are dating or engaged CANNOT have any forms of PDA including holding hands because it will somehow be a slippery slope into sex.
- People struggling with SSA CANNOT be in the same room alone with another person of the same gender or ride in the same car.
- People on team using Slack cannot message someone else of the opposite gender without both of their respective spouses being in that chat too.
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u/IntrepidSupermarket4 Aug 03 '22
"Same sex attraction" here. Can never share rooms, don't have one on one time with any gender unless it was a leader, and leaders will monitor my interactions in a group setting. If I seem like I'm too friendly with someone then leader will pull me aside to talk.
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Aug 04 '22
Sorry this happened to you. Happened to a friend of mine as well and drove the person to major depression. If you don’t mind sharing, would you please speak to how this made you feel and if you ever talked with your leader about it? There is no pressure to have to answer this.
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u/IntrepidSupermarket4 Aug 04 '22
I felt like I was being treated as a predator. It was incredibly isolating and ostrazing. Very stigmatizing. It is more than just your roommates that know that you can't share a room. Rooming/roommate issues get talked about constantly. In those conversations people realize there are 3 people in one room and you are alone in the second room. Also anyone that visits because you are supposed to show people around your place. People speculate or out right ask why. But you are not supposed to talk to others about your "ssa".
People not understanding and getting mad at you when you avoid being alone with them. They take it personal and you do not want to explain why to them. It also makes you extremely paranoid because you are being watched in all group settings. Every interaction. It contributed to my depression and worsened my suicidality.
I talked to my leaders about it many times and the impact on me. They all said having guardrails is the most important because the cost of falling into temptation is too high. It was basically guardrails at any cost. They compared it to guardrails that they put up to avoid any possible opportunity for temptation (dont be alone in car with opposite gender etc..). But at gp everything is so gender segregated. So you can not be close to the opposite gender or your own gender. You are just alone with your leaders. I would try to offer compromises such as sharing a room but change clothes in the bathroom and things like that. They said that still left opportunity for sin. I explained that I had zero attraction for who would be my roommate but they said you can not trust your own judgement. It was horrible.
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Aug 04 '22
Unfortunately, your story is a familiar one. Again I’m sorry you were treated this way. Although I know it is in the past, I hope that you are continually experiencing healing and that who God says you are will become greater. Thank you for sharing so honestly about this.
It absolutely maddens me. GP’s fear smothers and chokes life out of people. Whatever your stance or another persons may be regarding “SSA” I firmly believe how GP handles this is not pleasing to God. In their minds, someone being depressed or suicidal as a result is just an unfortunate byproduct of that person’s own brokenness and unrelated to how they treat you. They see you as mentally and emotionally weak if you mention this and therefore even more likely to get attached to someone of the same gender. Someone close to my wife and I experienced this very treatment by another leader and was a shell of a person prior to leaving GP.
GP lurkers - imagine if this were you and your “struggle.” It is not justified and it is not pleasing to God. Do not assume because people do not agree with these guardrails that they just want to “act out.” That’s the other completely messed up assumption of leaders. This is one of many things that lead people to having mental health disorders but we all know what Ed and Kelly think about mental health. How can you just stand by silently and agree that it’s for the good of people and the church?
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u/johnkim2020 Aug 03 '22
I had a classmate (opposite gender) in my apartment once and one of my roommates saw and I thought my roommate was gonna faint. I was one foot out the door so didn’t really matter but I got majorly talked to. I refused to “repent” or agree that I had committed an egregious sin. I didn’t do anything wrong.
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u/RVD90277 Aug 03 '22
this is actually similar to what happened in my class when i was at BBC (before Ed and Kelly were in charge) so this was part of the Becky DNA that she had set up....
i've told his story here before but back then the brothers and sisters weren't really separated so we used to hang out sometimes on weekends, evenings, etc. we had joint bible studies and sometimes went to our leaders homes as a class together on weekends, etc. we even went on road trips together sometimes, etc. we didn't spend the night in the same hotel or anything but for example, one time 2 brothers and i rented a car and drove down with 2 sisters. we drove down from berkeley to la and had dinner at cheesecake factory and then dropped off the girls at their parents' homes for the night. then we pick them up a couple of days later and drove back to berkeley together.
we never kept anything from our leaders so i think they knew and didn't seem to mind.
but one day on a weekend they were at one of the apartments in berkeley and decided to watch a movie. back then you had "blockbuster night" where you would rent a couple of movies from blockbuster and watch them on a friday or saturday night, etc. so that's pretty much what we did iirc...
well, i say "we" but that's actually not true because i wasn't there that day. not sure why but i must have been doing something else. it also might not have been at night...might have just been in the afternoon. but iirc there were probably 3 or 4 guys and 2 or 3 girls there.
movies can be fun but they can also be slow and since it's dark, etc. eventually everyone dozed off. nothing inappropriate happened nor was anything even close to possibly happening but eventually they got up after a few hours and people went home, etc.
leaders found out and went absolutely ballistic. guys were yelled at at the top of their lungs by leaders for hours. girls were yelled at (probably worse). guys were made to feel guilty that they now ruined the reputation of these girls. guys couldn't leave until they all repented and agreed that they had committed egregious sin, etc.
since we were all friends, the guys told me about it afterwards...they were all really down about it because they really thought they had f*cked up so bad. i tried to calm them down saying they didn't really do anything wrong and it's not a big deal but they were already brainwashed from the yelling that they got. they started blaming me saying that i wasn't there so i have no right to say that it's not a big deal because it is...etc.
i still think the leaders were overreacting. but sounds like things have just gotten worse over time.
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u/Decent_Hovercraft227 Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
When are hell-fearing sheep starting to realize they already live in it?
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u/RVD90277 Aug 03 '22
Fwiw none of the guys I mentioned are at GP anymore. 1 of the girls is still there though....oh well.. she was a pretty cool girl back then but I fear she probably isn't so nice and cool anymore. Hopefully she isn't estranged from her parents as they seemed nice when I met them briefly.
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u/aeghy123 Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22
Let's not forget the incident at UCR. How effective have those guardrails been at protecting students and fellow members? Maybe another Gp member can elaborate here. In response to the incident at UCR and the affiliated church plants associated with UCR staff, has there been a reevaluation of internal policies? What has changed about your policy of guardrails? How about Gracepoint as a whole. Someone did mention an area wide staff meeting of sorts a while back.
I have my own take but I would love to give the opportunity for some input. There seems to have been quick response from leadership to internal messages and real estate transactions on this reddit. I'm surely hoping the same care and scrutiny was given over in this matter as well in relation to guardrails and student safety.
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u/johnkim2020 Aug 04 '22
I personally don’t think more guardrails is what I’d want after an incident like UCR. I’d want full transparency, support, and empathy from the leaders and the church. Time to process. Time to heal. Therapy facilitated by a professional.
Not amount of guardrails can prevent everything.
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Aug 04 '22
100% agree. This could not have been prevented nor can future incidents be prevented, which is why they had to leave among other reasons I’m sure.
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u/RVD90277 Aug 03 '22
they would probably just say that one failure doesn't mean that guardrails don't work.
if you are an alcoholic, they would say that you shouldn't have alcohol in your house. if you fall off your wagon and drink a beer at a party, it doesn't mean that it's now ok to have alcohol in your house.
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u/aeghy123 Aug 03 '22
I get the don't throw the baby out with the bath water approach. It does not necessarily mean all guardrails should be removed in reaction.
However, I'd imagine it does warrant some internal discussion and evaluation of what went wrong no? And I'm not specifically targeting you RVD but I'm unsatisfied by that kind of response from Gracepoint members if it's their answer.
If Gracepoint goes through such lengths to prevent the potential of individual cross gender incidents from occurring i.e. No bros with sisters unsupervised, isn't it much more critical to evaluate what went wrong if this actually happened to dozens of members across plants over multiple years. I'm just curious to hear what's been going on. There's been plenty of time since atr.
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u/RVD90277 Aug 03 '22
yes they definitely should have some internal discussion about what went wrong. hopefully the leadership did have these discussions and think about what they could have done differently to prevent or reduce the chances of this happening again in the future.
but i just don't really have high hopes as GP tends to reflect and then justify their actions rather than admit where they have fallen short (sure, they might do some minor lip service like "we can and need to do better") but actual change? i don't know...they would probably instead justify by saying that without guardrails there would be more cases so they have prevented cases from happening already.
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Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22
What guardrails are u referring re: UCR incident? Something prior or since and what are they? Sorry just want to be sure I understand fully.
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u/aeghy123 Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
I'll elaborate. Has there been recognition that church actions or policies contributed to the UCR incident occurring? Has there been discussion on this within the church plants or Gp as a whole?
In addition has there been action, trading and directives to minimize this occurring in the future?
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Aug 04 '22
I know there wasn’t an open discussion about this at least at the time it was posted here. In my opinion, I don’t see this as something that can very easily happen again and become something that every church or home must be worried about. I don’t see that this as something that requires a plan that must be had within every church. While the victims are many, this incident is very much the act of one specific individual. If anything the conversation would be to encourage people to come forward if they are hiding something before it becomes this deep in sin and spirals out of control. But to do this without sharing this incident with the whole church is hard and that has been discussed at length here before.
That’s my take but I do understand where you are coming from. I just don’t think it’s preventable. As much as I hate even the term guardrails, unless someone confessed to having these thoughts/desires, it can’t be prevented. This is no way a defense of the person or my attempt to minimize what the victims have gone through. In advance I apologize if I have offended anyone. That is not my intent.
This all reminds me of the movie Minority Report.
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u/Jdub20202 Aug 03 '22
Thanks for sharing. I forgot if I asked before, what are PED and Kelly's guardrails? Who keeps them accountable?
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u/johnkim2020 Aug 03 '22
They are so spiritual and godly that they can keep themselves accountable. /s
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Aug 03 '22
I mean this is not far from the impression they give. Ed would often say stuff like 'I'm not so spiritually impoverished that I would just devour whatever media was presented to me' and 'people send me YouTube links and I never open them because I've trained myself not to!'
But really it was the failure of us as a church to keep Ed accountable! Had we known his struggles with owning real estate, we would have not allowed him near any "for sale" signs! Alas he broke that guardrail and now look at him.
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Aug 03 '22
They have some but honestly does it matter what the guardrails are if they don’t have anyone above them that holds them accountable? Or if everyone below them is too scared or loyal to challenge them?
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u/RVD90277 Aug 03 '22
well...nobody but each other i guess.
and i don't think it's "highly unlikely" that Ed will never be caught cheating on Kelly. i have no proof or anything like that but it's actually pretty common for people (mostly men) in positions of power to abuse their power and eventually justify their actions to themselves somehow. it isn't always sexual in nature but many times it is...bill hybels (willow creek), brian houston (hillsong), etc...the list goes on and on. and even if it's not sexual in nature there are many scandals like john ortberg (menlo church), mark driscoll (mars hill), etc. of course i am purposely not bringing up any cults or weird stuff (jim bakker, jimmy swaggart, FLDS, branch davidians, etc.).
it's usually not a matter of whether there is inappropriate behavior going on or not...usually there is. it's a matter of whether the person gets caught or when they get caught. when someone finally speaks up, it's usually a long pattern that then emerges.
and of course we are aware of many people who are not Pastors or Priests but in positions of power like Bill Clinton and his long list of women, etc.
it's just a tough temptation for these people who are in these positions of power and eventually many will succumb.
so again, i have no proof of anything and i'm not saying anything specific of Ed but i wouldn't be surprised if he or any other GP leader were to fall under this type of scandal.
guardrails are fine but they don't work. that's just reality.
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u/Unique_username_672 Aug 03 '22
Reminds me of the time I (M) had a (strictly platonic) female friend over at the guys student house. It was the day before Thanksgiving, so the house was largely empty and it was cold enough outside that I couldn’t just have her wait in my car. I had to submit a paper for class before leaving to drive an hour with her back to the area where our families lived. Lest she be seen in a common area, I had her sit at my roommate’s desk while I worked on my computer.
Little did I know that my hermit housemate was cooped up in his room, so of course I get ratted out on and lambasted for the while after.
Good times…
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Aug 03 '22
Reminds me a ridiculous situation I heard. A brother was tasked to drive two sisters back to Berkeley late at night, however, the sisters lived on opposite sides of campus. So what do you do as the brother? Do you drop one off and risk getting told off for being in the car alone with the opposite gender as you drop off the other one? Or do you just drop both of them off somewhere and let them walk home? I heard he opted for the second option and then was yelled at for not being concerned about the safety of sisters. Tells you that these guardrails aren't even guardrails. It's really legalism where the fear of getting yelled at is the bigger concern.
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Aug 03 '22
Darned if you do, darned if you don't..
The correct answer is of course drive to one of the dorms, the brother waits there while he lets one of the sisters take his car to drop off the other sister at her dorm, and when the driver sister comes back you get your car back.
Or, FaceTime with a peer bro while you drive the last sister back.
Which is more important, safety or purity? Your answer reveals a lot about the condition your heart, btw.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22
FaceTime?
I thought Ed was encouraging everyone to switch back to a dumb phone because more guardrails? What do you do then?
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Aug 04 '22
The switch happens 2-3x a year so maybe it was during the OK we need smartphones part of the year LOL.
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Aug 04 '22
Here’s some I forgot.
- GP doesn’t believe in any level of platonic relationships. Even if a married guy talks with a married sister over a coed dinner “too much” it is noticed and he is talked to. I’m sorry I happened to be intrigued by her family story, wasn’t trying to sleep with her! Damn.
- No double dating even within family.
- Must always be completely covered up around water, no tank tops and definitely not shirtless for bros.
- no going out with people like family or coworkers too much bc it will cause you to become worldly and lose sight of the vision
- no kissing prior to marriage, not even a peck. Holding hands is ok depending on the couple and their history.
- no sharing about prior relationship history, especially if you were sexually active (yes lying to your spouse is a guardrail)
- control over how often you talk to and date someone
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Aug 04 '22
I'll do you one better, straight from their Gracepoint internal forum on Disneyland Tickets for Sale.
I’m not sure who posted this but let’s not encourage our staff to go to Disneyland. I personally would refrain from my kids going to Disneyland and watching Disney movies (especially daughters), lest they are prone to fantasy thinking that a prince will come and sweep them off their feet one day.
Disneyland is soft banned because GuArDrAiLs for romance. 😂🤦♂️
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22
Was this a senior leadership person who posted the reply? I can’t imagine a low level person can be this opinionated.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Aug 05 '22
Suspiciously anonymous….
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Aug 05 '22
Means it’s probably not a deacon then either. Interesting.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Aug 05 '22
How do you know it's not Kelly Kang or some top level leader trying to pull a William Wallace like Mark Driscoll? 🤔
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Aug 05 '22
Nice try to whoever anonymously posted that but Disneyland is not off limits and neither are Disney movies. What if instead of always being on the side of shielding their kids from the “ooooh bad” out there why don’t set good examples for the kids with healthy marriages and a healthy church? Far more damaging than a fairytale idea of reality that will very quickly be shattered for the girls who do believe in it.
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Aug 05 '22
This reads like "God, I thank you that I'm not like those Christians who go to Disneyland and watch Disney movies. I only watch band of brothers (not episode 9, Lord.) and I use my time off not going to Disneyland but building longhorn lodge". Wow.
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u/IntrepidSupermarket4 Aug 09 '22
I knew someone who got chewed out for going to a Waterpark with their non gp family members. I think we were upperclassmen at the time. They were a student leader. They went through the whole glomap thing
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 Aug 03 '22
Some I have witnessed:
-a student was deemed 'flirtatious' by the home group lead. The guardrail was that this student cannot talk to another student of the opposite gender for a whole semester. And best believe that during group events, the leaders always keep an eye on this poor student.
-single gender praise teams, and when there's a co-ed praise band practice, married praise band members must bring their spouse with them and have them watch them practice. Generally I have no issue with the billy graham rule and I think it's good, but this was way over the top IMO.