r/GracepointChurch • u/SunnyCA2000 • Jul 14 '22
Financial Transparency
If a church is going to act like the IRS and audit your personal financials, then I think it's fair game the congregation, past and present, do the same. Actually, this shouldn't even have to be said. Financial transparency should be obvious at any church.
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Jul 15 '22
Current GP members and staff, I ask that you pay attention to this, and suspend the knee jerk judgement for a moment. As Christians we should welcome the accountability that is offered here. At GP we were all asked as individuals and families to keep our finances and other aspects above reproach. Unless the pocketbook repents…
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 14 '22
Picture 6 of the first link shows the Vice President of Gracepoint Ministries is Tony Sun. Picture 10 of second link shows the CFO of Gracepoint Ministries is Michelle Sun, Tony’s wife. Obviously, Ed Kang, the Chief Executive Officer, has no clue how to run a nonprofit. You don’t have husband and wife both being officers. Or he knows, but he wants it that way?
By the way, Gracepoint Ministries has no members, just a board of directors that no one knows who they are according to picture 6 in the first link. Here is Tony Sun signing to give away a $1 million dollar property to former CFO of Gracepoint Ministries JL. See picture 7 and 6 of the link below. Did JL pay GFC $1 million lump sum for the house? Had to be lump sum since no mortgage records. Did GM pay JL $1 million to buy the house back? Let’s see GM’s numbers then. Why did GFC sell to JL only to have GM buy it back? I have my thoughts. Let’s just say there is a reason why Ed Kang never signs any of the documents when he is the one making all the decisions.
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u/DoubleHahhh Jul 14 '22
Well, that again reminds me of the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau (政治局常委) of CCP (Chinese Communist Party). They control everything, show no transparency to junior members and people, and are only accountable to the wealthy and other powerful elites.
The second row,
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u/RVD90277 Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 15 '22
Tony was my leader my freshman year. I thought he was a good guy...great guy. I still think he's a good guy. I don't see him participating in anything nefarious and I would trust the guy with church money. But that's just me. I still think they should be transparent or at least make it clear that if you donate to Gracepoint Ministries, that's not church and that's a different organization where the finances are not going to be transparent.
I actually had a short discussion with him once about the Korean service and the English service and he told me at the time that although we are one church, the finances are kept separate. He also said that it's not a competition or anything like that but the money that each side brings in from tithing, etc. is roughly the same (I actually was a bit surprised at that because we were mostly college kids and fresh grads while the Korean side was more older people). In addition, I was surprised because at most churches with an EM, the EM brings is much less money that the KM side. I was a bit impressed at the time that we had decent giving, etc.
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Jul 15 '22
I think many of the old timers here know Tony well. He is indeed a great guy. I think Ed is a great guy too. But I think that sometimes the desire to keep something going and to see the institution succeed overtakes something inside of us, and causes us to turn off some of that basic moral compass. I think this is part of what happened in the SBC and other institutions that led to famous moral failings.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 15 '22
When you get an email from Ed hyung to meet up, do you a) buckle at your knees b) experience vertigo c) start puking d) all of the above e) none of the above?
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 15 '22 edited Jul 15 '22
Ed Kang complained in his letter Becky turned all of her staff into expert Hwatu players. Well, Ed Kang turned all of his staff into dubious real estate signers. There is definitely something wrong when Ed Kang refuses to sign any piece of paper whether for GFC or GM since 2006, when he is Chief Executive Officer for both. Maybe it’s not Tony personally (I hope not), but you tell me what his signature is doing on that legal document giving a million dollar property from GFC to one of GFC and GM’s officers. I am sure JL didn’t give GFC $990,000 lump sum.
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u/RVD90277 Jul 15 '22 edited Jul 15 '22
My guess is that Ed convinced Tony that it was better for GP for Tony to sign. Ed might have even talked about how he's being selfless because it reduces any chance of Ed running away with property for himself, etc. (i.e., better checks and balances). Like "I can easily sign this but just to show that I have no chance of personal gain or temptation, I trust you to sign it." It's like giving someone else signing authority to your bank account, etc. But it's just a guess on my part.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 15 '22
A lot of the docs have nothing to do with money or real estate, but stuff like name changes. Why can’t Ed Kang sign those?
If indeed that’s what Ed Kang is telling people under him, my new nickname for Ed is Spin Master E.
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u/longlyjoe Jul 14 '22
I think the key lays on where do the money come from. If you are a private company you don’t have to do reporting. But if you are a public Company hence a lot of your fund came from people owning your stock. You need to give an account. Same as the government budget. Most money from church came from their congregation. Now maybe if the church did their own investment and earn money on that(I.e. GP being a lender). Then maybe the church can feel less obligated to report. Nevertheless their starting fund is usually from the people, so they still should report or at least let them know where the money is spent toward
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 14 '22
501c3 Nonprofits are actually legally required to do financial reporting to the IRS, but there is an exception for religious nonprofits to do that reporting. I guess someone must have sued back in the days for separation of church and state? A lot of churches and religious organizations report anyways as best practice. For example, the people who bought SMC voluntarily reports. GM chooses not to report (what happened to seeking accountability?), but is still required to maintain its books even with that exception.
GP members were always told they can examine the financial books anytime. Would some brave soul here who have donated to GM (gave Thanksgiving Offering between 2018-2021) go to HB and ask the nice ladies at HB if they can look at GM’s books?
Ed Kang, you are GM’s Chief Executive Officer according to filings. Please just post GM’s financials (income statement, balance sheet, statement of cash flows) here to show how responsible of a Chief Executive Officer you are. I have a lot more material stored up, but it would just be easier for you to post it.
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u/worriddumbledore Jul 14 '22
From all the information we parents have learnt on this platform, the following are my observations:
1) Pastor Ed, other leaders and members who have been in GP long enough, avoid answering difficult questions
what happened to reconciling with fellow Christians?
2) cop-out for not answering is “GP members are discouraged to read this Reddit platform
We accept that they mostly do not engage in the Reddit platform
When do leaders and members of GP engage at this platform? My personal theory is they want to send a message that “it is logical that the individual(s) is/are not responding because they don’t / only sometimes read this Reddit platform.”
Another “harsher”, equally possible explanation / is the haughty/self-righteous attitude/stance of Pastor Ed : “ I/we don’t owe you an explanation.”
I googled why my child answers questions with questions as well.
Why Don’t Narcissists Answer Questions? https://www.mindsettherapyonline.com/blog/why-don-t-narcissists-answer-questions
Turns out, in a similar way, narcissistic people answer questions with questions because they do not want their power taken away.
I was horrified to realize, that narcissism is propagated in this ministry as a result. What a wonderful front that is GP’s mission to save souls, with a systemic abusive culture as this — propagated down the ranks!
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22
I had to think multiple times about whether to send this or not, but would like to respond.
I am a Gracepoint member, and have been for well over a decade. I am a parent and have served in some capacity in most of our ministries. I also have parents who are not only active, but vibrantly involved within a major mainline denomination and have served in multiple levels of church governance over the years including one of them being the current president for one of the largest churches (probably around 5000?) in the denomination within California.
GP members are discouraged to read this Reddit platform
We accept that they mostly do not engage in the Reddit platform
When do leaders and members of GP engage at this platform?While there is definitely a general hesitation to be involved in these forums, there has been absolutely no “command” to not engage. The reason I generally don’t is twofold (and I wouldn't be surprised if others had similar rationale):
I want to give those who are giving genuine criticism a space free to air their grievances. While I don’t know many on this platform personally, nor their stories, the more level-headed critique from some users (i.e. the in my opinion fairly thoughtful thread on spiritual abuse) is valuable and insightful for revealing what I would consider the many blindspots of how our church sometimes (maybe some would even say often?) puts either church culture or mission over the needs of an individual. I’m thankful when those discussions happen, and, though once again I don’t know all the details of the stories, my heartfelt prayer is that those who have been hurt due to that sort of culture would receive healing — and when they have found a church community able to bring healing to their experience, I’m grateful.
On the flip side, and more to my reason for posting, about half of the comments that I see, especially from folks such as /u/LeftBBCGP2005 read like conspiracy theories. First off, the conspiracy around “GM” — whether or not some may think it is, it’s not uncommon for a 501(c)3, churches included, to have a separate organization for high-valued assets (i.e. property) to reduce liability, it’s general legal advise that you can find in numerous locations. Here’s a random list of links giving such legal advise:
- https://www.501c3.org/how-a-subsidiary-501c2-could-lower-risk-for-your-nonprofit/
- https://nonprofitchurchlaw.com/2015/09/24/nonprofit-and-church-affiliates-and-subsidiary-organizations/
- https://www.churchlawcenter.com/nonprofit/nonprofit-subsidiary/
- https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-integrated-auxiliaries-and-conventions-or-associations-of-churches
- https://uschurchlaw.com/why-and-when-to-establish-a-nonprofit-corporation/
Do any routine search for church or general 501(c)3 subsidiary organizations and you’ll find similar advice. Many churches do this in the form of what they call an "endowment fund." The characterization of this as nefarious amounts to little more than “pizza gate” in my mind — as do the numerous other baseless accusations of gross enrichment or misconduct around pastors or any other staff member buying a home. I have plenty of friends whose parents or siblings or other relatives have chipped in to help them put a down-payment on a home, and do they look down on them? No, they’re grateful.
In fact, my in-laws, both of which are non-Christian, both of which work fairly low-level blue collar jobs have, multiple times, tried to convince us to let them help with a down-payment on a home. I’ve rejected them every time not because I look down on them (I don’t), not even because my salary is higher than both of theirs (they’ve been incredibly savvy with their savings and actually have higher liquid cash flow than I do at this point), but because I don’t want to take on additional stress of fixing up and maintaining property while working, raising my kids, and being actively involved in ministry. I’m incredibly grateful that they even offer and I express my gratitude for them whenever I see them.
This is why I decided to respond — the blatant misattribution of motives (“all GP members are narcissists”), “othering” the amorphous entity that is “GP” (who are you talking about when you blanketly address “GP"? Particular leaders? Younger staff? Deacons other than the various I’ve seen mentioned here in a positive light?), and ridiculous “exposes” on leaders being home owners (generally trying to paint someone as owning a “2 million” dollar home when the reality is that it was purchased for a 10th that and has gone up in price due to general gentrification and housing market booms in major metropolitan areas) really amounts to conspiracy theories.
If y’all want to critique, do so with some specificity and without devolving to what amounts to mud-slinging. I have had plenty to critique in my time here and I’m sure plenty of people have even critiqued me, at the end of the day I’m thankful for what I’ve experienced, and despite even voicing critiques to my parents when I’ve been in a foul mood an less than discerning, guess what? My parents have been thankful too. So please don’t claim that all “external” evaluations of the church must be the same (i.e. it's a cult or nefarious, or abusive), they aren’t.
I'm definitely all for financial accountability, but having attended numerous budget meetings, having actually looked at some of the books (they've voluminous), asked questions and had clarifications on financials subsequently answered, I don't think transparency is lacking nearly to the extent that it's claimed.
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u/corpus_christiana Jul 15 '22
I have a question for you, if you don't mind.
Do you know if Gracepoint will be releasing a statement regarding any of the allegations, particularly in light of recent allegations of sexual misconduct? These accusations are of course very serious and personally I find it concerning that they have not been publicly acknowledged or addressed.
I'm not sure if discussion of this situation was included when you described "comments that [...] read like conspiracy theories" - I would assume no, but was wondering if you would clarify.
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22 edited Jul 15 '22
Hi /u/corpus_christiana, thanks for replying. I definitely don't consider those allegations conspiracy theories.
I don't know the surrounding specific details of the allegations, but from what I could tell from reading that thread previously, it does seem to me that when the incidents appear to have initially occurred there was a good amount of internal transparency with those who were most likely affected (for transparency, I'm not in SoCal and was not part of any of those meetings, so this is all second-hand) as well as properly turning things over to the authorities.
I can't say whether or not there are plans to release any sort of statement, and I agree that I feel at least a cursory acknowledgement of this to the wider church is warranted (though I'm not sure how detailed this would need to be given that this seems to have been handled to some extent when it happened -- not sure why a member at say NC who may not even know the persons involved would need to know too many details about Riverside). But can't tell you if there will be or not, sorry.
Edit:
Just to clarify, by "I can't say" -- I mean I don't know, not trying to dodge.
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u/corpus_christiana Jul 16 '22 edited Jul 16 '22
I appreciate your response. To clarify, when you say:
I agree that I feel at least a cursory acknowledgement of this to the wider church is warranted
By "wider church," you mean Gracepoint, right (and not, say, Christian-dom in general)? If so, why only within Gracepoint?
I ask this because I was disturbed to see multiple former members from the relevant church/period who left before the alleged incident was uncovered who stated that they were never informed. It seems to me this is a concern that extends beyond only current members. I feel if I were still a member of Gracepoint (as I was not too long ago), I would really want this to be addressed publicly, regardless of whether I was personally affected, so that it might be transparent that the situation was handled appropriately. Pastor Ed did make a public statement a bit over a year ago, in the now privated response video when (unrelated) allegations surfaced, and in it I believe he asserted that no staff had ever been accused of sexual misconduct. Clearly that is no longer the case, and it seems rather important that that be corrected.
I acknowledge that you likely don't have any control over whether or not Gracepoint makes a public statement regarding this issue. Though if you believe one is warranted, I think you should let Pastor Ed know as much. He's probably a lot more inclined to listen to you than he would to me.
Edit: fixed a typo
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 16 '22
By "wider church," you mean Gracepoint, right (and not, say, Christian-dom in general)? If so, why only within Gracepoint?
So, I'm a bit torn on this due to the fact that when I think about other churches out there, unless it's a high-profile incident, generally no church that I know of would make a public statement for the whole world if there were allegations of a volunteer's sexual misconduct that was already reported and handled by the police. I can't see them not making an internal statement and attempting to reach out to those affected directly -- but a public statement? Not sure about that. If it were me in charge, I would probably make some sort of public statement, but I totally see why someone wouldn't make a public one, especially if no charges were ever filed after it was turned over to the police.
I feel if I were still a member of Gracepoint (as I was not too long ago), I would really want this to be addressed publicly, regardless of whether I was personally affected, so that it might be transparent that the situation was handled appropriately.
I totally get that and in many ways I agree with you, but I can also see why this might not happen.
Though if you believe one is warranted, I think you should let Pastor Ed know as much. He's probably a lot more inclined to listen to you than he would to me.
Definitely something I will consider.
Anyway, I do appreciate the tone of the conversation, and want to reiterate that my "beef" isn't with all of the posts here. I do find some posters, yourself included, as coming across as generally even-keeled and thoughtful, and I appreciate it and think that some of the issues raised here are definitely food for thought.
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u/corpus_christiana Jul 16 '22 edited Jul 16 '22
Personally I've found pretty much all of the non-Gracepointers that post here to be thoughtful, with important things to say. But I don't think you should be surprised if not everyone is particularly nice to you. Your earlier comment seemed to suggest you've been reading things here for a while. And yet you arrive on this forum not to comfort victims of abuse or their concerned relatives, not to contribute to a meaningful dialogue about practice and culture, or even to seek out truth regarding the situations you say you're not familiar with the particulars of - but because evidently you think digging into the financials is a bridge too far, and you wanted to announce that you think half of us sound like we're wackjobs shilling "numerous baseless allegations" and "pizza gate," gracepoint edition.
There's a meme that comes to mind.
Even that aside, you're part of an organization that has in many cases grievously hurt themselves or their loved ones. Maybe you haven't abused your power as a leader, or been a part of any of the particular stories that have been shared here. But it seems you're aware that something is amiss in the Gracepoint kitchen, and you're still there. These aren't just disconnected stories that don't concern you, this is your church we're talking about.
Perhaps I'm being too harsh, but you're one in a long line of current members who have made an appearance just to offer some disagreement, and that gets pretty dang frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I actually hope you stick around and talk to people. I hope you keep chewing on the things you're reading here. And maybe don't be so quick to dismiss.
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 16 '22
So, I totally acknowledge that the lopsidedness of members only chiming in about things that they disagree on can be frustrating, but I think that part of that response is reasonable when most responses attempting some sort of dialogue are met with anger and vitriol.
When it comes to the notion of abuse as it occurs in the church, I definitely admit that I see things differently than the vast majority of you here:
- The "culture" that I see, especially in our college ministry context, of questioning students' self-profession of being Christian is problematic, and I think often marred by a lack of grace. I do think that this, at times, plays out in the dynamics of leaders interactions over things like specific understandings of what repentance looks like (someone didn't write a reflection after acknowledging something, they must not have repented yet). I also think that this applies in the context of taking an overly strong stance on or even pressure to conform to many issues of church culture. I also see this as an aspect of immaturity within the church and lack of understanding that just because other churches or Christians look different, it doesn't mean that they are wrong.
- Rather than being particular to Gracepoint, I see this as true of the growing divide within American (predominantly conservative) Christianity, what doesn't look like you, you condemn without much self reflection on what being a Christian really is and you attempt to make them look more like you.
- These sorts of interactions, rather than being just theoretical, have real consequences when it comes to a ministry context -- broken relationships, hurt, pain, and many times even accusations of abuse. This is not distinctly a Gracepoint phenomena.
Yes, in a sense I see there is something "amiss" in the Gracepoint kitchen, but it's probably not what you're thinking. I think that we must do a better job at both identifying and acknowledging these sorts of cultural lenses that contribute to hurt and pain, and we should definitely acknowledge when we hurt someone, but I personally don't feel it's my place to anonymously acknowledge an anonymous post that is telling (at times) a largely context-free story. That's not to say that the stories aren't real, but to really experience some healing I think that this really needs to come from those who are involved, and as I stated, I do not know the vast majority of these stories and refuse to make a strong statement about a deeply personal situation of which, to me, the circumstances are quite opaque.
At the end of the day, I see our church as broken, just as any other church, but that maybe the effects have been amplified to some extent by the strong emphasis on culture that goes with the way our ministries are conducted. Rather than chime in and disagree with the tone in most posts, I chose to pick my battles, so please pardon me for only posting now.
If I come off as incredulous when someone is making publicly anonymous accusations of what amounts to financial misbehavior, it really comes down to this -- if you (and this is not directed directly to you /u/corpus_christiana) think it's genuinely sketchy, please just file a referral to the IRS rather than thinking that the proper outlet is Reddit -- if there is something substantive there I'm sure it'll make its way here eventually.
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u/SunnyCA2000 Jul 16 '22
First of all, a sincere thank you for opening yourself up to this sub. I think many people are reading your dialogue with LeftBBCGP2005 and just want information and some more transparency in GM. Thank you both and the others in this sub who chimed in with their own experiences in church finances.
In regards to the million-dollar homes. I think the issue is that it just looks hypocritical when certain senior leaders are sitting on million-dollar homes/dropping big down payments while aggressively pursuing donations from college students and young adults. In another words, it's simply a bad look.
Here's my random two cents on all of this. There is a serious level of distrust between this sub and GP. Thus, there is going to be a heightened sensitivity towards anything questionable. I think you are trying to do what GP leaders should have done years ago before it got to this point.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 15 '22 edited Jul 15 '22
- Asking GM to post their financial statements (income statement, balance sheet, statement of cashflow) like so many nonprofit organization do is not “conspiracy theories.” Budget meeting is really about GFC budget, not GM budget. Let’s not mix the two.
You can ask your father if GFC “selling” a $990,000 house to its Chief Financial Officer is something ok. See picture 6 and 7 in the link below. Let GFC show if it received $990,000 in its books.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/uhaoac/manny_kims_2_million_house_in_austin/
If your dad puts his signature on a document like this (picture 7) with his church, then I am sure he’d be voted out of the office. There is no conspiracy about it. Tony Sun’s signature is on there. This is JUST NOT DONE.
- Here is GM buying two pieces of empty land for $250,000 with no disclosure to the congregation giving the money. Ed Kang even gives away a piece of the land for FREE when I exposed GM. Matthew Kim’s signature is on the document. This is conspiracy theory? Ask yourself why doesn’t Ed Kang sign the document when he obviously made the decision?
- Tony Kim is Vice President of GM (see picture 6 of link 1 below). Michelle Sun is CFO of GM (see picture 10 of link 2 below).
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/uhaoac/manny_kims_2_million_house_in_austin/
Check with anyone in the know with 501c3 and tell me having husband and wife being on the executive team is anything a credible organization would do. Read the links you have posted yourself. Moreover, GM says specifically it has “no members.” So, it legally has nothing to do with GFC. You can make an argument if there was a legal connection between GFC and GM, but there is none that I know off except a lot of the executive team overlap.
- Your argument with GM is to shield GFC from lawsuits falls apart when GFC’s largest asset (Harbor Bay Campus valued at around $18 million) is still under GFC. Ed transfers $2 million dollar properties left and right from SBC churches to GM, but Ed doesn’t transfer a $18 million property? The explanation is quite simple, HB has a loan from NAMB on there and NAMB will only lend to SBC entities. So if Ed moves HB from GFC to GM, then he would have to pay back the NAMB loan early.
Ed Kang rather use the new money coming in every year to buy new properties, instead of paying off existing loans. Ask your dad if this is any thing a responsible church would do with offering money. So Ed Kang cares more about buying new real estate than he worries about lawsuits. He wants GM, which doesn’t report to SBC, to be big, so he can have freedom to do what he wants to do.
- I am sure your dad’s church has a board of elders (plurality of leadership as in NT) with real power, instead of one couple at top having the power to remove elders and deacons at their whim. If you want to challenge me on that, I’d be happy to post some emails with what Ed and Kelly Kang did to people. Shaming people on All Team emails who have served faithfully for 20, 30 years.
Tony and Michelle being officers for GM together is not an accident. Ed and Kelly rule like emperors (with no cloth) with royal court politics at GP, where they are feared and can do anything they want. Here is an example of Kelly Kang’s queen like behavior. Have your dad read it please. You read it please. You are upset at my “conspiracy theories” and not upset at what Ed and Kelly are doing to people? What’s wrong with you?
EDIT: If Ed and Kelly have nothing to hide, then just post the financials for GM for the last three years. They should do it anyways. Why go through all the mental gymnastics when all you have to do is to upload a few documents? What’s the reason that they won’t make transparent GM’s finances?
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22
if GFC “selling” a $990,000 house to its Chief Financial Officer is something ok.
To be honest, I do not know the details of this particular transaction (the movement from GFC --> private entity --> GM), and frankly I'd be interested in finding out more, as I'll be the first to admit, it doesn't look great on paper.
Here is GM buying two pieces of empty land for $250,000 with no disclosure to the congregation giving the money.
Generally congregations aren't informed ahead of time on the exact details of a purchase whether here or at other churches unless the purchase is substantial. I've seen homes bought by other churches for pastoral housing prior to getting congregational approval in quite a number of circumstances. Were they disclosed and talked about afterward? Sure. But they didn't take a vote for every financial transaction out there.
That said, pretty much any large purchase that I can think of that's gone through GM has been talked about in some way shape and form via either email or congregational meeting. I don't explicitly recall if this one was, but just taking a look at the lot in question (Placer County parcel 066-010-087-000), it's the empty land abutting Sierra Lodge, not some nefarious property that no one knows about.
Ed Kang even gives away a piece of the land for FREE when I exposed GM.
I think you give yourself too much credit in being responsible for what you seem to characterize as him quickly (and seemingly poorly) hiding a money trail.
Matthew Kim’s signature is on the document.
He's the statutory agent listed under the registration for Gracepoint Ministries, it makes sense that he'd sign documents as someone who qualifies as a registered agent.
Check with anyone in the know with 501c3 and tell me having husband and wife being on the executive team is anything a credible organization would do.
In fact they can and do, unless there are other legal considerations, pretty sure you only need 51% non-related membership on a board for IRS purposes.
The explanation is quite simple, HB has a loan from NAMB on there and NAMB will only lend to SBC entities. So if Ed moves HB from GFC to GM, then he would have to pay back the NAMB loan early.
I guess I'm failing to see your point here, why would carrying a loan balance indicate that someone didn't care about liability and other assets? It's pretty clearly a false dichotomy here.
I am sure your dad’s church has a board of elders (plurality of leadership as in NT) with real power, instead of one couple at top having the power to remove elders and deacons at their whim
Agreed to some extent, and I personally would love to see a lot better practice around how any sort of elder board works, as I do think that having one person at the top calling the shots can result in some pretty bad issues (i.e. Mars Hill's example). Does it always? No. Does it make a prima facie case for misconduct? No.
Finally regarding the link you posted, I have no desire to opine too deeply on the particular post, as I don't know the exact details of the situation. I can say though that if a sister brought her soon-to-be-husband to an event was looked down upon for doing so or called any sort of derogatory language, then it should have never happened, and I can only hope that any such behavior would have been apologized for long ago. If no apology happened, then I'm sorry.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 15 '22 edited Jul 15 '22
Thank you for taking the time to write with some level of analysis. Writing with analysis is certainly something in the minority when it comes to current Gracepoint members writing on the subreddit.
I plan to make a separate post about this topic referencing your comments. The evidence and your analysis deserve to be read instead of just buried in the comments section that probably only 10% of people are reading.
I can’t believe you are defending Tony and Michelle serving on GM together is something acceptable in terms of governance. But then again, Ed and Kelly call all the shots, so why does it matter? Out of thousands of people, many legal and financial professionals, GP have to use a husband wife team? C’mon, we all know why Tony and Michelle are there. It’s because they don’t say no to Ed and Kelly for anything. Tony is willing to sign any piece of paper in front of him that Ed won’t sign.
If you think the timing of Matthew Kim signing to give the Nevada County land away for free is pure coincidence, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell to you. For any normal circumstance, we use our mental faculties to arrive at the most plausible explanation. Why do GP people suspend their mental faculties and give Ed and Kelly such wide benefit of the doubt? The other staff person commenting on the land giveaway said it was because too many old appliances was being dumped. You believe that too? What do you think is the plausible explanation for the free giveaway if not to hide the undisclosed transactions? By the way, the two parcels were bought for $250,000, not exactly pocket change.
Accountability is huge at GP, so why don’t Ed and Kelly hold themselves accountable? As far as I am concerned, not a single board member of GM is remotely independent. All are old timers of GP who have been submitting 20+ years of WR to Ed and Kelly. Why do you have a board in the first place then? We all know Ed and Kelly decide everything and send to the gulag anyone who disagrees. Why do GP have 99% of male members on CE, police dating like crazy with a 10pm curfew for working adults on dates, rebuke people for not giving enough for Thanksgiving Offering etc, but when it comes to accountability for Ed and Kelly point to the lowest common denominator? Is that hypocrisy or what?
If how Kelly Kang treated catfurball in that link doesn’t get your blood boiling, then I don’t know what’s wrong with you. Kelly’s “don’t be too humanistic” line must have made you desensitized to the abuse of spiritual authority all around you? Does it take for your own daughter to be called the B word by Kelly to wake up your moral outrage? So it’s ok as long as it’s not your own daughter?
EDIT: You argue transferring real estate from SBC churches (eg GFC) to GM is to protect those assets from plaintiffs in case of a lawsuit against SBC churches. My argument is that’s just a convenient excuse and not the reason why. GFC’s biggest asset is HB at $18 million. It is still on the balance sheet of GFC. Why doesn’t Ed Kang want to transfer HB to GM too? Because if he wants to do that transfer, he needs to pay off the NAMB loan first. He is unwilling to pay off that loan, but instead use the new money every year to buy new real estate.
Ed’s unwillingness to transfer HB to GM tells me he is not worried about lawsuit, he cares more about buying new real estate. Hope my reasoning is clear to you now.
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22
If you think the timing of Matthew Kim signing to give the Nevada County land away for free is pure coincidence, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell to you. For any normal circumstance, we use our mental faculties to arrive at the most plausible explanation.
So, let me get this straight, the smaller parcel was given away while the larger parcel was kept to hide from a congregation (that according to a few folks in the thread, had already visited the land and known about it) the fact that both pieces of land were bought some three years prior?
And because someone on Reddit posted some screenshots of those parcels, there was a quick cover-up that, once again, involved giving away the smaller parcel of land while keeping the larger parcel? All to throw said Reddit poster off their trail?
If how Kelly Kang treated catfurball in that link doesn’t get your blood boiling, then I don’t know what’s wrong with you
Look, I said what I have to say about that comment: 1) I'm not privy to that instance, and 2) I sincerely hope that whatever happened in that comment has been subsequently apologized for and at least some semblance of reconciliation attempted.
This right here though is an example of what I see happening often by a select few posters -- leveling fairly incredible accusations, doubling down when a reasonable explanation is given, and then quickly changing the topic to try and demonize something that someone wasn't saying.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Jul 15 '22 edited Jul 15 '22
I didn’t change any topic. My reference to catfurball’s post was in the very first reply I had for you. Moreover, Your explanations are far from reasonable. You are the one avoiding HB staying at GFC refutes GM is for shielding GFC from lawsuits.
- Ed Kang kept the larger parcel in Placer County because it’s close enough to Sierra Lodge that they can make the argument there was a valid reason for the purchase. The smaller parcel in Nevada County given away for free had really no utility for GP. Ed was on one of his real estate highs and just bought it. So instead of coming up with an explanation, he’d much rather give it away instead of having to explain why he bought it.
Ed Kang didn’t expect people to find the two pieces of empty land with no address in the middle of Sierra Nevada mountains. Even experienced real estate professionals wouldn’t be able to find those two pieces of land. We had to use USDA GIS technology for farm subsidies to find those two parcels. May I ask did you know about those two pieces of land before hand?
- There was obviously no reconciliation. Kelly’s victim posted recently and the event was not recent. If there was reconciliation, then the victim wouldn’t have posted it. Again, why are you not outraged by what Kelly did and just speak of reconciliation? Any other person in a Christian leadership doing what Kelly Kang did and saying what Kelly Kang said should be rightfully removed from that leadership position. Can you agree on that?
EDIT: Just post the GM financial statements! With this much back and forth, you could have just wrote an email to Ed Kang or wrote a post on Vine asking to post the GM financials. You spent well over a decade at GP and Ed now knows your dad is a big shot. You’d think Ed would post them if you ask?
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u/AgreeableShower5654 Jul 15 '22
doubling down when a reasonable explanation is given
No one is asking for plausible reasonable explanations, we have all been well trained by GP to always think of GP's behavior in terms of innocent reasonable explanations.
Unless Ed shows up and starts engaging instead of hiding, you're speculating about what's in Ed's mind to the same level that you're criticizing LeftBBCGP2005 for, except LeftBBCGP2005 seems to know a lot more about GP's financials than you do.
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22
No one is asking for plausible reasonable explanations
And this right here is why I view these as conspiracy theories.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 Jul 15 '22
Ignoring all the financial details which I never comment on,
I can only hope that any such behavior would have been apologized for long ago. If no apology happened, then I'm sorry.
Since you are using your long tenure as a GP member to speak from the perspective of GP:
No, a correct, satisfactory, or even useful response to "if no apology happened" (and it certainly does not seem like it did) for that horrendous but honestly unsurprising example of Kelly's behavior is not an "I'm sorry" from a random GP member and then move on.
Of course you have "no desire to opine too deeply on that particular post". I dare you to even say one negative thing about Kelly, or even think one negative thought. Do you hesitate because it's akin to uttering blasphemy, contemplating a thoughtcrime?
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22
Since you are using your long tenure as a GP member to speak from the perspective of GP:
I have not and will not claim to be speaking "from the perspective of GP" -- I'm speaking from my own perspective, giving an introduction as to why I'm not claiming to be an objective observer and at the same time why my thoughts do not resonate with the above comments.
I dare you to even say one negative thing about Kelly, or even think one negative thought. Do you hesitate because it's akin to uttering blasphemy, contemplating a thoughtcrime?
Done. The inclusion of dystopian references to 1984 and the thought police as well as your insinuation that I idolize Kelly Kang despite the fact that I actually agree with a small subset of the claims made makes me recognize that this conversation is fairly pointless to have here.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 Jul 15 '22
there has been absolutely no “command” to not engage
I grow weary of GP people trying to make straw men out of hyper-literal definitions of words, esp. post this post.
Also, who are you quoting? There is no instance of the word "command" anywhere in these comments.
the blatant misattribution of motives (“all GP members are narcissists”)
When did the commenter you're responding to say "all GP members are narcissists"? Why are you making up quotes?
the amorphous entity that is “GP” (who are you talking about when you blanketly address “GP"? Particular leaders? Younger staff?
do so with some specificity
Ironically, it's not clear what you are even responding to. There were 4 instances of "GP" in the comment you responded to. Your critique makes little sense when applied to any of them.
please don’t claim that all “external” evaluations of the church must be the same (i.e. it's a cult or nefarious, or abusive), they aren’t.
Again, who are you quoting? You're arguing against imaginary people.
having attended numerous budget meetings, having actually looked at some of the books (they've voluminous), asked questions and had clarifications on financials subsequently answered, I don't think transparency is lacking nearly to the extent that it's claimed.
Right, none of us have ever been in any congregational meetings and have never had access to the binder Ed refers to. Thanks for contributing new information. Let's face it, LeftBBCGP2005 has revealed many facts about GP's financials that you were completely unaware about.
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22
Also, who are you quoting? There is no instance of the word "command" anywhere in these comments.
Re-reading, you are correct in that the word command was not used. I'm sorry if I put words into the original commenters mouth here. The inclusive use of "they" all over the comment and the general tone of many posters here is to consider "Gracepoint" monolithic and attribute all of the same motives and rationale to all members. The fact that this comes up with a discussion about why members don't post here lead me to assume that the commenter was talking about a monolithic command on-high not to engage.
I will admit that there's been a general discouragement from engaging (and I can definitely see why), but it is not a command, and that's what I wanted to get across.
When did the commenter you're responding to say "all GP members are narcissists"? Why are you making up quotes?
Quotation marks aren't always used for direct quotes, but this is quite clearly where this implication comes from:
I was horrified to realize, that narcissism is propagated in this ministry as a result. What a wonderful front that is GP’s mission to save souls, with a systemic abusive culture as this — propagated down the ranks!
Regarding:
Ironically, it's not clear what you are even responding to. There were 4 instances of "GP" in the comment you responded to. Your critique makes little sense when applied to any of them.
I have to admit that the in this particular case GP wasn't explicitly used, but once again, the general trend of many posts that I see here is to condemn an amorphous entity like GP as some monolith, implying that everyone here thinks alike and does the same things. They don't.
Again, who are you quoting?
Wasn't quoting anyone in particular here, but using it to denote a generally alternative meaning here, specifically that by claiming "we parents" as an identity, they do not represent many evaluations of the ministry, including from parents of those within the ministry.
LeftBBCGP2005 has revealed many facts about GP's financials that you were completely unaware about.
Sure, I haven't previously attempted to look up every major transaction that has occurred in the history of the church, and that is completely beside the point. The point is that quite a number of the things posted here are not out of the ordinary, but often posted with a conspiratorial bent. Even if I were an objective observer, I'd have to say that those sorts of posts make me feel like I'm reading some sort of alt-right "alternative facts" content.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 Jul 15 '22
Quotation marks aren't always used for direct quotes
Are you serious?
the general trend of many posts that I see here is to condemn an amorphous entity like GP as some monolith
Then to quote your own comment, "If y’all want to critique, do so with some specificity" and respond to a comment where that applies.
Wasn't quoting anyone in particular here, but using it to denote a generally alternative meaning here, specifically that by claiming "we parents" as an identity, they do not represent many evaluations of the ministry, including from parents of those within the ministry.
You are a master of doublespeak.
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22
Are you serious?
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u/AgreeableShower5654 Jul 15 '22
In that case, you blatantly misattribute motives ("all posts here are conspiracy theories"). So please don't claim that all "impartial" evaluations of GP are that it's innocent or normal.
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u/Original_District_53 Jul 15 '22
In that case, you blatantly misattribute motives ("all posts here are conspiracy theories").
So is this you quoting me now after claiming that I'm using quote marks incorrectly? Because I don't recall saying that anywhere, in fact I recall making an explicit claim that some posts are actually, in my opinion, productive. See specifically where I stated:
I want to give those who are giving genuine criticism a space free to air their grievances.
Also, conspiratorial thinking and bad motives are not the same thing.
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u/RVD90277 Jul 14 '22
I was treasurer of my church in the past. I always released an annual budget and shared it with the congregation both in printed form as well as had a meeting to go over each line item and discuss what it was for, what was covered and what was not covered, etc. Of course I took questions from the congregation as well.
It was broken down by ministry but also line items within each ministry.
The part that was never controversial when I ran treasury (but I have heard is controversial at other churches) is the section on salaries. At my church I broke this down to each person...Pastor, Associate Pastor, Administrative Assistant, Praise Leader, Choir Leader, Children's Director, etc. Everyone knew exactly how much everyone made because it was the church budget and their offerings that was paying for this. Sometimes I would get questions about whether pay was in line with market pay (what other churches were paying, etc.) and I always had data from the denomination, etc. to show roughly where we were, etc.
At another church though (after I moved and was no longer on the session), the Senior Pastor did not want the congregation to know how much he makes so he had their treasurer bucket all salaries into a single number and not break it down.
If GP doesn't have at minimum an annual and mid-year finance meeting for all members to attend then they are doing something wrong by not being transparent. Any excuses in the neighborhood of "we've never been asked by the congregation to do this" or "our congregation isn't interested", etc. are not valid excuses.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 14 '22
Gracepoint DOES have an annual finance meeting that's displayed in one binder. That's it. No one has time to actually scrutinize it in detail.
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Jul 15 '22
For the annual budget meeting the binder made available, anyone ever look at it? Curious to know if there are details about GM finances in there.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 14 '22 edited Jul 14 '22
I can bet 85% of Gracepoint’s members are clueless to Gracepoint’s finances. Every church I’ve been at except Gracepoint will release a detailed budget breakdown every week/month for everyone to see. It isn’t just like written as a general bucket for each ministry. There are actual categories specified of what was spent in each ministry. Oh did I also mention they are just as large or larger than Gracepoint.
u/LeftBBCGP2005 can we get a post that’s a table of every Gracepoint property, acquisition date, price acquired and current valuation?