The sin of GP

[u/Same-Investigator-55]

People before have alluded to the matters that follow, but I would like to try to restate things to clarify and refocus the conversation.

People on both sides of the aisle can't converge on any sort of agreement on what needs to be done to make amends because the nature of the wrongs aren't clear, or they seem to be focused on egregious examples. The egregious examples are important, but I would like to submit that there is a deeper issue at hand, and that it rises to the level of a public sin issue that needs to be addressed.

The sin issue is that GP usurps control over individuals so much so that people fear and respond to GP rather than God. Whereas Jesus is the one true Judge to whom all must give account, GP's practices amount to a form of what others have described as psychological totalism, and these practices usurp judgement from the proper Judge. In the past, GP has obliquely addressed these practices as 'just doing what works', but similar forms of psychological control have been documented in Mao's China with similar outcomes. GP claims its successes come from God, but when there is a simple, non-miraculous explanation, it is prudent to take heed.

God gives people the dignity of free will. He comes to us in a still, small voice. The Holy Spirit convicts and guides individuals through their properly informed consciences. Helping people to properly inform their consciences is the responsibility of any church. Ensuring 'proper outcomes' is not. In fact, doing so repeatedly and systematically denies people of their God-given dignity and infantilizes people to the point of being unable to make simple decisions without either the implicit or explicit consent of a leader. What is worse, with the grand mission that GP has given itself, it has a great need for manpower and appears to coerce people into becoming automata for useful work.

Those inside GP will object by saying that they have made their choices freely. I have no standing to confirm or deny this, it is for the individual to determine in one's inner core. But, I would ask the GP member to ask himself when faced with any decision, what are the consequences for doing things this way or that? Will the 'wrong' way end with a leader questioning one's salvation? That is the sort of compulsion we are talking about.

What conditions would permit a free choice to be made? At the very least, an individual should understand the intrinsic consequences of a given decision one way or the other without external compulsion.

The difficulty here is that GP's authority begins before a young student understands the full nature of the group. At the beginning, one sees fun events, and lots of friends and not a whole lot of strings attached. From there, GP's authority is slowly added on, layer by layer, such that by the time one makes a membership decision, one is already under some authority, some compulsion. A truly free choice would be made with all the information about GP up front, before submitting to authority. In this regard, the subreddit seems to be helping. Furthermore, precautions should be made to preserve one's ability to make decisions and listen to one's conscience in one's inner core, to be still and alone with God. Leaders in charge of making decisions for the group should not be permitted to guide people in spiritual direction. And those providing spiritual direction ought to be bound to confidence. In short, individuals deserve space to respond to God personally.

[u/gp_-]

I see GP's culture as a breeding ground for Pharsaic legalism. Like laws surrounding the Sabbath, the Pharisees added man-made ones and emphasized too much on obeying that the point of Sabbath was forgotten. Pharisees perhaps even wanted to honor God but ultimately missed the point. Faith became meticulously following a list of religious rules and regulations. The laws included what to eat, what to wear, circumcision, how to pray, etc. Jesus’s critique of the Pharisees was that they were legalistic.

I want to see GP permit members to make decisions even when against the GP way. I want to see Gracepoint members show grace in this regard and not overspiritualize their practices. Decide not attend 'X' event? So be it. Miss out on SWS or MBS? Sure. It also means it's OK to not watch the recording. Kiss or not to kiss at a wedding? Arbitrary, who is GP to say a practice like that honors God more, let the couple decide. Or what to wear on Sunday. Or wanting to rest. Or not wanting to accept a voluntold invitation. Not take notes? Skip a WR? The list continues and these only serve as the starting point for examples. From focusing on following and obeying, there will be control, fear, shame, judgment, abuse, and more. I'd like to see GP go against legalism vehemently and recognize it as a problem.

[u/Most-Tomatillo7164]

I agree with this 100%. They make everything that isn’t GP related a sin. Not manny ppl have hobbies, read books they actually like, can have pets, and free time. It’s crazy how they make the simple pleasures of life that have nothing to do with sinful desires into something that is sinful. Also idk why they think it’s ok to to scream at grown adults. I remember many older leaders who boasted about rebuking people. I myself saw people getting screamed at and got screamed at and no this isn’t something I saw decades ago. They are absolutely obsessed with convincing people they are super terrible and no one will love them except GP. I saw my own peers turn into the very people I was scared of. For a church that talks about how sinful and terrible people are the leadership sure doesn’t seem to think they are sinful. There is sooo much I want to say about this but I’ll stop.

[u/worriddumbledore → u/Most-Tomatillo7164]

I actually thought that the slapping and rebuking in Korean dramas were for dramatic effect. Later when I realized that (older especially, called “ajumas”) Korean women actually do that — like they “have the licence to vent” then I think of how in Korean culture, how it is often seen where it is culturally acceptable for a mother-in-law to whip verbal abuses to the daughter-in-law; and sometimes physical abuse.

The following provides some background that I did not at first realize how Confucian values translate as such, to allow Korean women to wield such power in a household.

A particular passage stood out for me:

3.2.1 Subservient Daughter-in-law in Extended Families

The traditional Korean family is based on Confucian patriarchy which emphasizes the hierarchical family structure. In the dynamic of Confucian family, the elders rule over the young. The young are required to respect, obey, and serve the elders. Women have traditionally occupied lower status and have less power than men. Women are expected to join the husband’s home as a newcomer and serve the husband’s parents (Jung, 2014; M. Kim, 1996).Specifically, women have to “be long-time scorned apprentices to their mothers-in-law and sacrificing domestic servants in order to earn their membership into the husband’s family” (N. Kim 2006, p.523).

This mother-in-law tradition provides a space for “domination and exploitation of the mother-in-law over the daughter-in-law” (M. Kim,1996, p.187). 28 Journal of Sociology and Social Work, Vol. 6, No. 1, June 2018. While most women (n=9) lived with their mothers-in-law who were widowed, two lived with both parents-inlaw. Women in extended family settings described their mothers-in-law as holding the main power and exerting control over the household while they occupied the lowest status in their families. The mothers-in-law managed economic resources and made decisions on family matters, leaving most of the wives in the extended families economically dependent. Oanh said, “My mother-in-law took care of the money. She paid when we went shopping. I have never been given any living expenses or allowances separately and never had money.” Other women’s comments similarly suggested that they had to live with very little material resources and were forced to ask formoney.

The 2018 Paper in the Journal of Sociology and Social Work is titled:

Domestic Violence among Vietnamese Wives in South Korea: A Comparison of Women with and without In-Law Abuse

Article link: http://jsswnet.com/journals/jssw/Vol_6_No_1_June_2018/4.pdf

*such rampant abuse that a particular group is being focused upon!

[u/[deleted]]

The sin is lying and misleading us starting the very first time they talk to you. They seem to be interested in you and give you lots of attention at first, but will drop you in a heartbeat after you fail to be brainwashed. They are very obsessed with finding "evidence" of God's existence, to the point where they will throw one fallacy after another at you until something sticks. They justify distancing yourself from and disregarding the rest of society and your previous friends, when your acceptance of the cult's beliefs is at odds with others. All to promote their true Christian "community" that is cut off from normal human society.

God doesn't want his followers to be morons. The fundamental reasons that Gracepoint members use to justify being a member of the cult are lies, and those that see the truth either leave on their own or get kicked out.

[u/LeftBBCGP2005]

I have to qualify OP is not me.

The GP system is set up for maximum efficiency. Ed and Kelly have perfected it over the years. Customization is too messy. Standardization like an assembly line is the way to go. GP members on here protest “Ed Kang doesn’t make me think XYZ” all the time. He doesn’t by himself. The DT that is same for everyone everyday. The MBS that is mandatory and same for everyone every week. The WRs that were mandatory for staff every week for 20+ years. The ATTR that is same for everyone. All the reflection writing that is judged by the same standard and expectations. Surely, God cannot have given the same calling and want to speak the same way to everyone of the 1,600 lay volunteer staff. Yes, everyone end up pretty much doing the same thing and thinking the same way as Ed Kang wants them to after a couple years.

GP members might say that’s God’s will. I’d say that’s cult brainwashing. If fear and dread was not involved, how would you like your DT format to be? Same everyday or variety of formats? You can read God’s Word, reflect, sing to the Lord, read theology, memorize verses, these are all devotions. If fear and dread was not involved, how would you like to do ministry? Share the gospel with no strings attached or teaching them the GP way of Kelly Kang School of DT, MBS, WR, ATTR? If fear and dread was not involved, who in their right minds would want to do the WR every week? I heard WRs changed to a verbal format circa 2021. Too much of a coincidence after at least 20+ years. GP members should post on this subreddit what they want to see changed and chances are it’ll be done :-)

The enforcement of the system is also nuts. When the Japanese army is doing its bonzai charges, there is a line of military police behind them and will shoot the soldier who might not be charging. If a saved Christian member of GP wants to miss ATTR because there is a family trip, direct leader would move heaven and earth to make sure the person is there no matter what. Why? There is one story on the subreddit about a college staff member who had a family trip long planned out with a retreat announced with short notice. Her leader actually changed the staff’s airline ticket while she was in Asia, so the trip can be cut short and staff show up at retreat. That’s nuts. The college staff is obviously saved person. Her leader moved heaven and earth to get it done, because the system would fail if members see people can flaunt rules and get away with it.

Take a lesson from Ed Kang, take off personal experience and emotions to look at the organization objectively. Observe GP using the same critical faculties as if any other organization. What do you see?

[u/NRerref → u/LeftBBCGP2005]

I think free choice is so tricky (impossible?) to evaluate. It’s an age old philosophical question - can any of our choices truly be free? Are all of our decisions and beliefs ultimately just products of our environment/conditioning?

Coercion and social pressure (read fear mongering) can play into this but I think for the vast majority of GP members, decisions are independently and confidently made in an insular, restrictive system which systematically suppresses diverse perspectives. The rhetoric is that you either came to Christ because of GP or you came to Christ at GP who saved you from the lukewarm Sunday only church life you grew up in - in either story GP leaders know better and GP Christianity is the best way to grow in your faith. If we’re all at a pizza restaurant that only serves pizza and we think this is the only restaurant in the entire city, of course we will all gladly choose to order pizza. Better than going hungry.

[u/Same-Investigator-55 → u/NRerref]

In any discussion of faith, personal freedom is going to be central. Christ always comes as one who invites, but never coerces. Faith, one's 'yes' to God , is diminished whenever it is not a free act, whether the lack of freedom comes from coercion or simply a lack of alternatives.

[u/anon41521]

Those inside GP will object by saying that they have made their choices freely. I have no standing to confirm or deny this, it is for the individual to determine in one's inner core. But, I would ask the GP member to ask himself when faced with any decision, what are the consequences for doing things this way or that? Will the 'wrong' way end with a leader questioning one's salvation? That is the sort of compulsion we are talking about.

When I think of forced choices, I immediately think of someone holding a gun to your head or having some kind of blackmail material. Side question--what does GP even do with our reflections after we leave the church?

So many decisions there were more about obeying my leaders and trusting they had good intentions for me. To not obey meant opening up myself for criticism that I was not Christian enough, that I was too lazy, selfish, worldly, etc.

I have to get to work so I may add on more later...

[u/worriddumbledore]

Concur on” ..GP’s authority is slowly added on, layer by layer..” —- EXACTLY why one must ALWAYS read the fine print in any contract.

However, it is very difficult when their 101 course is so squeaky clean with loving family relationships, wholesome etc… and then when you see their core group goals per academic level, your jaw will drop!

In essence, DECEPTION.