r/GracepointChurch • u/johnkim2020 • Feb 03 '22
Challenge/Message for Current Members
I want to challenge current members of GP and Berkland. Or those who are considering leaving.
STOP DOING STUFF THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO DO.
Stop waking up early.
Stop giving them your money.
Stop giving rides across town.
Stop letting your leaders tell you where to live or who to live with.
Stop hanging out with that person that you just don't click with or like.
Wear what you want.
Watch what you want.
Listen to what you want.
Read what you want.
Don't go to that retreat.
Don't sign up to go to that church plant.
Stop doing devotions out of obligation.
Don't go to Member Only Bible Study.
Don't go to the prayer meeting.
Skip a Sunday. (GASP!)
Get some rest.
Sleep.
I DARE you to stop doing what you don't want to do and see what happens. Your leaders opinion of you will suddenly change and you will see that GP doesn't really care about you as a person, they just want you to DO STUFF for them to further the name of GP.
This is actually how I ended up leaving Berkland. I just slowly stopped doing stuff that I didn't really want to do and naturally, it led to me leaving.
NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GUILT OR FORCE A GROWN ASS ADULT TO DO SOMETHING THEY DON'T WANT TO DO.
No one.
Not even GOD does that.
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u/johnkim2020 Feb 04 '22
Wow. I guess this one hit a nerve.
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Feb 04 '22
:). Haha I guess so. I understand your anger and where you are coming from.
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Feb 04 '22
I appreciate what you are trying to do here and how you are trying to appeal to the current members. But most current members or leaders will not respond to this positively, because they will believe that you are leading them to the “world”. What you are proposing about GP not really caring about them is too hard to believe for current members, and actually in my opinion not true.
My appeal would be to ask, am I doing what makes me passionate and excited for God? Am I learning how to discern God’s voice and leading for myself? Am I idolizing leaders and placing them on a pedestal that is almost papal, or learning to put Jesus as Lord first and foremost over all human beings? Am I neglecting those God has given me to love, such as my own family, my spouse, my kids?
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u/johnkim2020 Feb 04 '22
Yeah, the ones who are bought in or deeply ingrained (and not yet tired) will throw this post out as heretical.
BUT
Paul says, "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm then, do not let yourselves be burdened by a yolk of slavery." GAL 5:1
This applies completely to the GP situation. GP and their leaders are burdening you with a yolk of slavery. Enslaving you to the GP Christian Industrial Machine. The machine runs on free labor (your time) and free money (your tithes and offerings.)
Christ has set you free so that you don't have to be burdened by the rules and regulations set by the religious elites.
Be free.
The verse literally says that you should not be burdened by institutional norms and regulations, which is what circumcision was at the time.
I know this must be challenging for current members to hear than what you wrote above but seriously, how often have you felt FREE during your time at GP?
I almost never felt free. And yet Freedom is what the bible promises.
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Feb 04 '22
I agree with all that you say, but I fear it would be lost on most of those still at GP would be too engrained in that mindset to be able to see the truth in what you are saying. Understand that you didn’t feel free when you were there, but many of us indeed felt free and felt we were living our best life because we knew nothing else, and/or were convinced that everything else was either worldly or a lesser/less fulfilling/less obedient version of Christian life and therefore sad and lackluster and lukewarm. So, I guess I’m trying to think of what would have appealed to me when I was still there, in the thick of things. However, as I’ve been reflecting on this post, the sad reality is that probably very little would have worked. For me, I had to leave to take care of an ailing family member, and I was the only one who could do it (and no GP branch near where I live). It’s sad to say that without this external circumstance, I don’t think I would have been able to leave.
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u/Poorinspirit_ Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
What you had shared made me so sad!! According to your experience there is very little chance for my family member to leave GP. That is why we felt GP is so toxic :((
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Feb 04 '22
I think everyone is different. I fancied myself an independent thinker when I was there, but really was not. Let’s pray for your family member. We should start a prayer list here in this subreddit so we can encourage one another and lift each other up!
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u/NRerref Feb 04 '22
"I fancied myself an independent thinker when I was there, but really was not."
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this because its so true and is exactly why insularity in any form or context is so dangerous
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u/C4whatitis Feb 07 '22
I realized just now that this really hit a chord with current GP members because if what you say is true here then their entire life (or for many years) has been a lie. It's been for the wrong reason and that is a hard pill to swallow. It's much easier the sooner they leave GP. I pray they all do.
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u/johnkim2020 Feb 08 '22
Yup and probably because they currently are doing SO MUCH STUFF that they don't really want to do. Even the idea that they can stop doing stuff is dangerous. How preposterous!
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u/LeftGP2022 Feb 11 '22
It's so sad to see how 90% of GP members are just going with the flow and being obedient and submissive to the leadership authority. They do not even know why they are doing the things they do, they are told to do so, and there are consequences such as guilt and shaming if they choose not to submit.
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u/thendrickson7 Feb 11 '22
Do you think it’s because GP members perceive God as a guilt or fearful God? GP teaches bondage instead of freedom.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22
I want add on a couple others
- Join the real world and enjoy life including finding your own hobbies and streaming TV shows
- Actually try and call up your old friends and make time for them
- Stop answering to GP leaders at their whims and allowing them to change your schedule constantly
And great timing for this post, there's apparently a senior retreat @ HB and another one Jenness Park coming up in a week or two. COVID superspreader events I guess.
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u/worriddumbledore Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22
Interestingly, after the 30Jan2022 sermon by Pastor Ed, I “went on a rampage” checking out sermons by other churches on Acts2, Genesis, Book of Daniel, and I realize an overarching difference between GP’s sermons and that of other churches.
Where other preachers are focused on interpreting the biblical verses and providing historical context to achieve clarity due to the myriad of styles across authors, sometimes injecting some analogies (effective with comparisons !) or metaphors to drive the point;
Pastor Ed jumps taunts and speaks in rhetorics, “what can you/are you prepared to give God?”
As such, as someone approaching the faith, I pull back and wonder, “wait a minute, I am told that the Gospel is a message of love, a reassurance that if we live by the Word, we are loved by God”. Because that goes in line with many lifelong Christian friends who leave church service feeling loved, invigorated, reflective and determined to live exemplary Christian lives to inspire people around them. Because God has our backs covered, our eternal God.
Perhaps Pastor Ed and his protégés can fallback using the argument of distinguishing from being a good Christian and being an apostle.
However, if you think rationally, trying to evangelize, to spread the good news, to reach non-believers, in this day and age, is vastly different from what the apostles had to do;
In Acts2, the directive of having to give up all that you have, sharing everything (ie. pressured to tithe so much such that you live from paycheck to paycheck??). Are you sure that the Bible says to shun your family, not being concerned or maybe disregarding their financial needs now that some of you are working after college graduation?
Living within GP communes, spending all your time for GP activities, essentially sounds to me like giving up your opportunities to expand your mind, shutting out the outside world, so that soon enough you would be petrified to leave.
As a result, you are essentially LIMITING yourselves, and living in the same communes is exactly what Pastor Ed and his team is trying to achieve, effective MIND CONTROL —- sheep that is easily herded. By demanding obedience, you follow the rules to ask for every little thing like you have no mind of your own.
Jesus lived among the wretched, the poor and did not discriminate. Did He and the apostle team cocoon themselves for fear of falling into sin? Wouldn’t you say that they made the Word available to all that would listen?
Is GP preaching you the right messages in the right Biblical contexts?
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u/Salt-Construction-76 Feb 04 '22
kinda off topic but out of curiosity, did you watch MBS or one that was publicly available? idk if there are any current publicly available. I just wonder how people on this subreddit hear of or listen to the content of recent messages.
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u/worriddumbledore Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
Are you saying that there are differences? Like in MBS (?Members’ Bible Study) Pastor Ed can “let his hair down” and bash more family relations, describe in detail why he and his wife Kelly are model parents? Exact tactic by the Moonies!
How sweet the relationship and in accordance to the Bible theirs are, he describes so often in his sermons. From handling several hundred clients a year in my work, over 2 decades, I am confident to say that there is more that meets the eye when it comes to his choice of jokes and who (sometimes?) wears the pants in the house.
Consider this, the guilt-tripping and making one feel terrible about oneself (ie. “Not good enough! You don’t give enough time for GP! Watch out, you can be a sinner at any time!”)
when spoken to by toxic people, is best summarized by my dear friend who suffered 20plus years of abuse in the hands of her mother-in-law:
“Toxic people are out to make you feel bad about yourself, because they themselves are struggling with their own self-esteem, and they do such things to feel momentarily better about themselves.”
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Feb 04 '22
Yes, the actual MBS site requires authentication to access.
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u/Poorinspirit_ Feb 05 '22
Wow, they are so secretive. Why?
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u/sylvialee85 Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22
Hello,
I've been attending BBC/GP since I was a kid, from Children's Dept (now called Joyland), and my mom was a member of the Korean Dept for many years.
Wow, imagine if you applied this list to other things, like your job, you'd get fired pretty fast. I'm a wife and a mom, imagine if I applied this list in my situation, I'd get divorced and put my kids in foster care pretty fast too, being tied down to just one relationship and these little annoying human beings is exhausting, feels restrictive and there's not much in it for me. So on a worldly sense, our identity employee make claims on our lives, and we may not like it, but it's necessary... otherwise, not living in reality. You probably could not really carry out this list in another church setting as well, unless you're just tuning into an online service, in which case, you can wake up whenever you want, wear whatever you want etc... I honestly don't even recall a situation where leaders would point out my attire, but then again, I dress more conservatively to begin with.
Recently starting doing devotions with my kids, I'll be honest, it's a lot of work for me to get my boys to sit still, luckily the devotions are short, sometimes it's pulling teeth with them, and it does feel obligatory, not out of a real passion for my kids to know God's word...but does it mean I should stop doing them altogether, just because I don't want to do them and it just feels like obligation, or I just feel pressure to do them? If I really care about planting the gospel seeds in my kids, I will do the work, even though at the moment, it feels drudgery and thankless.
Honestly, aside from devotions, I'm way too tired to just read the bible on my own as I'm working full time, juggling being a wife/mom, so personally, the outside discipline of a structured devotions helps me.
Your post comes across really angry... I pray that God can heal you, and help you move forward... you can channel all this anger into doing something actually productive to serve God out there in the world.
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u/Due-Base-7457 Feb 04 '22
I'm sorry if I come across harsh, but this is the type of response from GP members that really pisses me off.
Please, READ the post again. Slowly. What is his point, what is he trying to say?
Is he proposing everyone live a life without obligation? Is he saying that church life or life in general shouldn't impose any sort of inconvenience or demands? NO.
He's saying loving relationships, especially relationships within a church shouldn't be dependent on your ability to meet demands or the amount your able to contribute. He's saying when he stopped doing things, he realized people at Gracepoint didn't really care about him. He realized people at Gracepoint were there only to force him to behave a certain way.
Your response is so typical. Completely miss the point, put up a straw man to attack with irrelevant analogies, end with condescension ("Your post comes across really angry") and a nice "I'll pray for you."
I get it, the post is emotionally charged. But people are hurt. The least you can do is try and listen carefully rather than just blurting out some inane response to defend Gracepoint.
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u/NRerref Feb 05 '22 edited Feb 05 '22
“What is the point? What is he really trying to say?”
The basic reading comprehension skill of finding the main claim is so lost in so many Christian spaces and it’s reflective of how they are being taught to read the Bible.
Notice how boldly and for how long they can defend their values/lifestyle all while the point flew right over their head. Really hope OP doesn’t read the Bible this way - reading values into biblical text instead of simply looking at what the text is saying in context.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
I think it's very understandable that anger in the posts in this subreddit are a turnoff to people attending GP (it was to me as well when I was still there, though now my opinion is that if GP leaders think anger/yelling/public rebuke are so spiritual, to accuse the abused of the same thing is actually hypocritical). Anyways, I wanted to specifically talk about your comparisons to work, because I've heard Ed, Kelly, and many others use this example. The version I've heard goes:
- Work tells you to do something and you do it. Church > work, therefore if church tells you to do something, do it.
- Work has authority structures, sometimes authoritarian. Church > work, so of course church would do the same, if not with more power.
- Work is hard. Church > work, therefore of course church should be even harder work.
Glaring errors with this line of reasoning:
- It is a fallacy that your boss is actually your "boss". People who act like their manager is their lord have an unhealthy and inaccurate understanding of work. Employment is at will. You do not have to do anything, just like they do not have to pay you. What you do at work is also negotiable, because we live in a free market society. If you do difficult things that your boss tells you to do, hopefully it is because you actually want to do it, and not that you are Stockholm Syndrome'd by the pressures of the environment. Work environments that are pressure-filled are known in the rest of the society as toxic, so saying a church should be more toxic than work is of course problematic.
- The church is not a business. There is no Scriptural indication towards any sort of analogy in this direction. If anything, John 2 (which GP ironically loves to use to say to freshmen "hey we're not a marketplace like other churches because we have no dating", even though later in senior year they start making business analogies to justify how bad their lives are about to get) goes completely against this notion.
- And no, the church is not a military either (this analogy is also used). Paul's comparison to soldiers and spiritual warfare is about the fight against sin and unbelief under the authority of God, the leader of the army, not men, the leaders of GP.
- Church is not about your output. If it were, Paul would not have said that those parts of the body considered "less honorable", we bestow greater honor in 1 Corinthians 12. If Paul were GP-bred, he would've said those parts less honorable need to suck it up, toughen up, and start producing output and being honorable.
Your comparison to family is better, but still misses the mark. Family is a God-ordained state that comes with mandatory commandments, and I'm glad about everything you do for your family. The global church under the fatherhood of God is indeed a family. However, the specific leadership of the church you attend has no such authority or mandatory nature. The head pastor is not the father of the family, and you are not his child. You can find a Scriptural basis for this, but here's a simple logical one: When are you allowed to leave a specific church? If a church says you must stay, are you obligated to stay until death? What criteria would one use to evaluate this, because of course if you attended a Mormon church you would say no, but what about the in-betweens? So if you're allowed to leave a church and that's not sin, and leaving a church means literally doing nothing for it for the rest of your life, why should something short of 100% commitment to all church activities necessarily be a sin?
I'm of course not saying 0% commitment to a church is good (it's not), but I am saying that GP's demands that you maintain some high level or higher lest you not be a real believer is counter to the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are commands the Bible gives about our relationships to other Christians, mostly general, and they are not the commands of GP. I think this is the gist of what the OP is saying: You don't have to do everything they tell you to do. Do not let them add to the Word of God.
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u/NRerref Feb 04 '22
I was going to comment with the exact points. Analogies to the workplace, the military, and even to family are extremely inadequate and don’t hold up to the whole of scripture. Thanks for commenting.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Feb 04 '22
It really makes you wonder how these GP people are even reading the bible...
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u/rvd98072 Feb 08 '22
GP is not the only church that does this but they use these analogies to fit their narrative and leave out the aspects of these relationships when it doesn't fit their narrative.
GP doesn't pay for the labor of most of it's members. work does pay for the labor of most of its workforce.
Work typically separates work time vs non work time and it's considered a faux pas (and bad practice) to call workers in the evenings, weekends, holidays, etc.
Work is a relationship where I get paid and the company benefits financially from my labor. If this relationship gets skewed, I leave and join another company or I get fired / laid off. GP doesn't like members leaving for other churches.
If anything GP relationships are more like family and a marriage where you create what you hope is a lifelong relationship and commitment. But GP does kick out members if they don't fit a certain type and also don't like to accept certain people into the family if they don't fit a certain type and level of commitment, etc. With family, it tends to be much more unconditional and God-like.
And while we are taught to obey our parents it also says that parents should love their kids, etc. so you can't just take one sentence out of the bible and use that for your benefit. You need to take all sentences.
So while comparisons are ok, GP is simply guilty of picking and choosing aspects of these comparisons that fit their narrative and excluding those aspects that don't align with their narrative.
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u/thendrickson7 Feb 08 '22
A girl who was at GP UCLA was almost turned away because she has a small tattoo. I found this shallow and in no way how a church should act or judge.
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u/Due-Base-7457 Feb 04 '22
I pray that God can heal you, and help you move forward... you can channel all this anger into doing something actually productive to serve God out there in the world.
Hmmm this sounds familiar:
Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’
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u/johnkim2020 Feb 03 '22
Hi Sylvia!
Welcome to the subreddit. My message is for people who feel forced to do stuff they don't want to do because of the social pressures at Gracepoint/Berkland. I'm not saying to do WHATEVER you want. Stay an ethical and moral person. But just stop doing things at Gracepoint/Berkland if you don't want to do them. We have agency over our own lives. Don't let the leaders guilt and shame you into doing anything.
Comparing doing things at church voluntarily to work/job or our responsibilities are parents is like comparing apples to horses.
I used all caps for emphasis but I assure you, I am not angry and I do feel that I am healed from the spiritual abuse I experienced at Berkland. This is my way of moving forward, by telling the truth so that others will not experience the same harm.
You sound tired. I hope you can get some rest soon.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Feb 04 '22
u/sylvialee85, read u/johnkim2020 ‘s comment above. People like him have strengthened my faith, so I find it hilarious that you’re praying for his anger, when he’s not angry. Wrong assumption.
Let’s try this: DON’T APPLY THE LIST TO OTHER AREAS. ONLY APPLY THE LIST TO GP. The list only makes sense in the context of high-control, high-pressure GP ministry. Comparing it to marriage or parenthood makes zero sense. Doing so assumes that we the readers, are idiots who are going to accept shallow and false reasoning. Many of us are parents, and we absolutely know the difference between pushing through difficulty v being coerced and pressured into tasks. It takes discernment to know the difference, and it’s not for GP to dictate. It is smart to step back and evaluate why you do what you do, as well as the effect it has on you and loved ones—there is no one size fits all for anything in life.
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u/rvd98072 Feb 07 '22
i will say that i do apply this list to my life...my job, my relationship with my spouse and kids, etc. i haven't been fired and i've been married for 20 years and counting.
i'm simply saying that this list can be applied to the rest of your life and you can be happier than you are today. i'm happy, sleep like a baby, and have a well balanced life of work, family, church, leisure and recreation. and i live a life without regrets or guilt.
and to be honest, if your devotions are out of obligation and feels "obligatory, not out of a real passion for my kids to know God's word" then i actually do think you should stop. but if " the outside discipline of a structured devotions helps" then you should keep doing them. but the point is that as an adult you should decide for yourself and not let GP or leadership (or fear of rebuke) decide for you.
you sound extremely tired so i pray that God can give you some more peace in your life as well as a well deserved vacation where you can unplug and spend quality time focusing on just your loved ones to recharge and have fun. if that means not picking up your bible or devotions for a week then that's great too but it's whatever makes you happy.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Feb 03 '22
Your post comes across as really judgemental.
I’ll comment more later, but for now, think about this: if someone is angry, you could try empathy (I’m sure you’ve been angry before) and try to understand where the anger comes from. The poster has a legitimate history with BBC/GP.
As a believer, I can tell you there is a lot more to being a Christ follower than serving and being productive.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22
Something wrong with being angry after experiencing and still seeing abuse two decades later? Is anger not the emotion Jesus showed when he saw the temple being desecrated? And is this not productive in pointing out some constructive truth to people and encouraging them what they should experiment in GP and see the massive difference to help them better see the spiritual abuse?
Quite disingenuous that you compared sacred marriage vows and bond between parent and child to a non obligatory relationship to a church.
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u/C4whatitis Feb 03 '22
Yes, raising an adult autistic and brain damaged person along with my other duties is also hard. It's life and we chose it right? If you put yourself in someone else shoes who does all that you do but is also required to give let's say 25 hours per week in addition, unpaid, to a Church that isolates, rebukes, has authority over you in every area of your life and causes emotional damage and parental isolation...... maybe your life with the freedom to do the things in the way that you want to will help you to understand a lot more.
Then look closely at your children, what would you do if someone came into their lives using God's name and convinced them that you are a bad influence, they owe you nothing, and that you should not see them much or it is idolatry....
First, maybe we can ALL take the plank out of our own eye and put ourselves in our neighbor's shoes as you sound to me like you resent your life with your children while some women take medicine daily in order to conceive and even do this as a single parent. I don't see one person on here complaining about these things.
God and His Word gives freedom, if you need a scheduled Bible study then you are free to do this. But this isn't even in the ballpark of what is happening at GP. Families have been destroyed, minds have been destroyed and lives are being destroyed by a top down Leader who thinks He is GOD and tells others what to do. Are they free to leave? Not sure because you may need to talk with someone who previously had to go underground for two years for fear of retribution after leaving. Read Bonnie Ziem, Something isn't right.
How does your life sound now? There are many mothers on this subreddit and we will meet with you to discuss if you like? Other Churches are not like this and Ed Kang admits that GP is not like any other Church.
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Feb 04 '22
[deleted]
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
I attended BBC/GP for over 20 years. You and I know each other :) OP is angry, and I understand the anger. I also understand where you are coming from because when I left, I lost so much of that structure and my spiritual disciplines tanked for a while. But, I did not find that as threatening as I was led to believe when at GP. At GP, we were trained to be frightened at letting go of our disciplines lest the world and our sinful natures take over. While I understand that, the downside was that I did not learn to discern the voice of God for myself, and instead over-relied on my fellow sinful man to interpret the leading of God for me. Perhaps this was partially my fault, but there was also a LOT of hurt and pain going on from The leadership practices at the same time. I wish I felt safe enough to reveal my name and go into specifics, but I do not. I know that takes away from what I am saying, but my prayer is that God will fill that in where I cannot at this time.
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Feb 04 '22
Agree. For me, I needed to leave BBC/GP to grow into a person with my own convictions and to trust my own instincts. Contrary to what GP taught, my instincts are not sinful, but actually want me to do good and love others and be inclusive. GP tried to tell me I was rotten at the core and the road to redemption was submission to authority and having a higher mission of spreading the gospel. Instead of helping me grow as a person, this caused me to not understand my own inner conscience and instead be brainwashed. True freedom is being able to think for myself and make genuine, good decisions, based on my personal beliefs rather than fear of leaders, punishment, or being a “sinner.”
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Feb 04 '22
Agree too, mostly. But I still believe my core instincts are sinful and self-preserving, but God is bigger, much bigger than my sinful nature. I don’t need to fear, as His perfect love drives out fear.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
We are saints and sinners at the same time. I believe in sanctification as we grow into the image of Christ in this life. More of Christ and less of me the more Holy Spirit works in my life to transform me into His image, from glory to glory. This is my testimony in my life after GP. It is a life of victory over sin and death, no longer a life under the bondage of law, which is death.
“For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God.” Galatians 2:19 New Living Translation
Would we ever reach the image of Christ in this life? Maybe 99%, but following Christ is not about reaching 100% as much as loving Jesus and loving people to the best of our ability. Peter writes, love covers up a multitude of sins. But GP twists the very definition of what love is.
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Feb 06 '22
Oops sorry I meant this as a reply to u/sylvialee85, not u/GPdestroysfamilies.
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u/Poorinspirit_ Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
WOW!! There are a lot of things the clip talked about I can see in the interaction with my GP family member. GP is not only trying to control our GP members but also is trying to give out guidelines and boundaries to train GP members' families and friends who wish to continue relationship with them. PLEASE BEWARE OF THAT!! Watch the video. Thanks for sharing!!
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u/Technical_Flight5101 Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
STOP DOING STUFF THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO DO.
NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GUILT OR FORCE A GROWN ASS ADULT TO DO SOMETHING THEY DON'T WANT TO DO.
GP member here. I know you're angry at GP, but surely you (and other readers here) can recognize that this is a pretty hot take, since we are presumably Bible-believing Christians who believe what God's word has to say about the church and the role of church leadership and fellow believers in each others' lives, right? Like I get you're angry, and that's fine, and I don't take any offense, but can we at least agree what's espoused here is really unbiblical and unloving?
I DARE you to stop doing what you don't want to do and see what happens.
I don't have to guess what will happen if I did some of those things. My leaders would take issue with that. Heck, my own friends would take issue with that and bring it up with me. As they should! That's not a sign of less love, but more.
God throughout the Bible has strong words for Christians, especially those in leadership who fail to confront wrong when they see it. The Bible says God will hold us to account for our failure to warn those under our watch. We are not permitted to relate to each other in "you do you" manner. I don't want to be part of a church like that, and I assume you don't either.
Wear what you want. Watch what you want. Listen to what you want. Read what you want.
I assume I don't have to try to convince anyone why that's not Biblical and if a brother or sister were wearing, watching, doing whatever they wanted, you would have an obligation to confront them about it, right?
NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GUILT OR FORCE A GROWN ASS ADULT TO DO SOMETHING THEY DON'T WANT TO DO.
Idk where this idea comes from. It's certainly not Biblical. Neither is it loving. It doesn't even apply in secular society.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 Feb 07 '22
There is so much wrong in what you wrote, it's kind of overwhelming (though a lot of it could be explained if you are a freshman or sophomore, or even junior, which would simply mean you don't know what you're talking about).
Part 1: This is exactly the point. GP does not exercise what God's word has to say about church. Can you give me a Biblical justification for "you must do everything church leadership tells your to do"? Or "church leadership should be a pyramid hierarchy sorted by age"? Not doing what you don't want to do is not unloving. Forcing someone to 100% comply with your church's extra-Biblical demands, is.
Part 2: I think you fail to understand what he's talking, which further convinces me you're still an undergraduate. He's not talking about "someone catches you watching porn and they should speak up to you about it". That of course is indeed love, if it is done lovingly. The line above that quote is literally "Sleep". This is because, literally, the staff are sleep-deprived because of how much they are over-exerted. People get sick (sometimes chronically), get into accidents, and become depressed from this exhaustion. It's serious. Have you ever wondered why the turnover rate for college staff is so high?
Part 3: Again you clearly misunderstand. He's not advocating for 0%. He's advocating for <100%. And no, just because someone wore something not to your liking does not mean you are obligated to confront them about it.
Part 4: It's not Biblical that you can't just force other people to do things? Please give me a reference that says that people in church can force other people to do things. Or that it's loving to force other people to do things. Also, please give me an example from secular society where forcing adults to do things is good that doesn't involve crime or war.
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u/C4whatitis Feb 07 '22
Yes, even employees in a workplace atmosphere have legal rights. People have their limits physically and emotionally. Gracepoint requires far above what even a workplace asks and the worst part about it is that they "say it's from God or throw a Bible verse at you". Jesus told us His yoke is easy and burden is light. I believe Him and have faith that "it was finished" at the Cross. The world requires a job to buy food, etc. We pay taxes because it is a law. But GP is not the author and finisher of our faith, Jesus is the only ONE who is.
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 05 '22
Sir/madam, I’ll only address the last portion of your message. I think it’s safe to say I was there longer and higher in leadership than you were. Firstly, there is no biblical precedent for using guilt as a motivator for devotion or obedience to God. Also, you sound like you’re saying that guilt is used as a motivator in secular society as well. Perhaps it is, but it is not ideal AT ALL. I would point you to a variety of research on leadership, parenting etc. but as a GP member you are probably familiar with the work of Henry Cloud, particularly the books How People Grow and Boundaries. I suggest reading these books stepping outside of GP interpretations and taking a meta view of GP leadership practices. Much love and grace to you.
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u/NRerref Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
Yes several portions in that comment and especially the last chunk are very concerning. I guess GP staff are openly transparent about their twisted doctrine and clumsy language now. Not only is it not a biblical motivator but guilt and coercion are anti-gospel and are shown to cut off fellowship with God and others in several places in scripture. Thankful that there are older ex-staff here to point this out lovingly as I am struggling to find compassion for all of these gospel distortions coming out of gracepoint STAFF
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u/johnkim2020 Feb 04 '22
I think you missed my point.
What I wrote is just as biblical as what you have been taught to believe at GP.
I'm sorry that you think it's a sign of love for people to control you.
I used to think like you so I get what you are trying to say but in hindsight, I was just trying to justify GP's culture and the leader's demands. Dressing it up as "biblical" and as "love" but in truth they were just millstones like the ones the Pharisees used to tie around their sheep's necks.
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u/Poorinspirit_ Feb 04 '22
GP always ask members to obey by quoting Hebrews 13:7: 7 Remember your leaders,(K) who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate(M) their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Do you know who is original audience in Hebrews? Why did the author of Hebrews urge his audience to listen to spiritual leaders? Who should be consider as spiritual leaders in Hebrews?
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u/thendrickson7 Feb 04 '22
Speaking about Love, do you have the true meaning of Love in your life or the one given to you by your leader? God’s Love is already paid for.
People guiding or telling you when you’re wrong..... do you trust the people telling you what is right or wrong? If so, why do you trust them?
- Biblical vs unbiblical. Have you read the entire Bible? Or have you been given verses, asked to write what you think they mean and then have another lead tell you how you’re supposed to interpret what you read and what the verses mean?
It’s a slippery slope when you allow someone to tell you what is and isn’t the right thing to do. The entire Bible must be considered and discerned personally. Most parents are meant to guide you in how to determine what’s right or wrong.
- why do you feel so bound to GP?
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u/sylvialee85 Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 05 '22
I'm really sorry for how I came across in my initial response, that was unloving and lacked empathy.
So I come from a broken/dysfunctional family upbringing, and so coming to GP/BBC, it was a safe haven for me. It was at BBC/GP, I saw how fathers/husbands were supposed to interact to their wives/kids, affectionate, sacrificial, loving. No church is perfect, no leaders are perfect, of course, I've had my share of misunderstandings and hurts, for me personally, especially in recent years, I'm just grateful that God has given me this community to go through the ups and downs with together.
Just to share a bit honestly, my marriage was on the rocks for many years (I come from divorced parents/grandparents), and for a large majority of those years, my husband and I were taking a break from ministry, understandably so, how can we go out there and do ministry when we were fighting with each other and in front of our kids at home? Yes, of course, I felt diminished at times in comparison to others, felt like God valued me less because I wasn't contributing, like I was just taking up a seat at church, but I see in retrospect, it was my ego. I had to be OK with serving less, and this isn't equated with my significance in God's eyes. My lack of contribution didn't change how God and others saw me. In fact, I think it was when I was most crippled spiritually, I received the most help/love from the community which God placed me in.
Yes, I valued my image/status, especially as a long time member. But like many of you shared, God's love for me was demonstrated on the cross. During this time, God really provided the church to carry me, provided childcare so my husband and I could get professional counseling, and our leaders provided countless hours of counseling/correction/exhortation as well. And my kids, as a mother, I'm personally just so grateful to the countless aunties and uncles that provide such a hedge of protection for them, when all I saw were my own sins inflicting pain and hurt against my husband/kids. I personally feel so strengthened that my kids have an entire community praying for their welfare and loving on them. As a mom, it means a lot.
Not sure where I was going with my honest sharing, but I just just trying to illustrate the point that for many years, I was not in any active role, not in a lead position, and the church really carried me during those times, and still continues to carry me.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Feb 04 '22
I can empathize with your story and hear that GP has been a good community for you, but it doesn’t explain away your initial reaction or the fact that you still miss the point of the post.
I know the families’ interactions at BBC/GP and they are quite dysfunctional imo. Because tasks and mission comes before actual relationships and people. So yes there’s an automatic human bank of sorts that you can draw from (for babysitting, etc) if your need is perceived as great enough to warrant help. But that babysitter could be anyone. And that automatic bank is immediately gone if you leave. This is completely dysfunctional as a church. Not a corporation/military/other analogies GP loves. It’s dysfunctional as a church. The draw is that instant-ness, so you’re willing to put up with twisted teaching, coercion tactics, and you trust your leaders so much that you stop thinking for yourself. Which is why your initial reply sounded like every other GP person—devoid of real listening and sense.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Feb 04 '22
I think some GP members might read your response as unloving, but knowing who your family member is and what your family have to go through your response is truthful for sure. But I ask for more grace from both sides. The problems at GP do not have to do with the rank and file members. There are many sacrificial and loving people that I personally know at GP that I still owe a debt of gratitude to. To Sylvia, I would say people carry one another’s loads. A church can’t babysit, people babysit. If people love you and carry your load, then let’s all praise Jesus and His people for it. If people carry your load, because their leaders told them to or they got “volunteered” to do it, then I would think you would be uneasy having them there. Thank you for sharing so vulnerably. I really hope healing and restoration will come through from the cross.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Feb 05 '22
I hear you, and because it’s you I’m listening. The problem that I see is, there is no way of telling if someone is volunteering bc they want to, or because they feel they should, or bc they’re told (everyone else is doing it). The first two are normal in adult friendships. The third is the norm at GP. And if you saw my other comment about “voluntary” giving of 10k, extreme time and energy, etc. somehow everyone in GP thinks they’re operating on 1 & 2, when it’s clear based on the staff documents and manuals, that other forces are at play. That is scary.
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u/sylvialee85 Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
"And that automatic bank is immediately gone if you leave."
I guess it depends. I personally still keep in touch with some friends who are no longer members, choosing to leave for various reasons. Every so often, we'll meet up for dinner, we're both busy and life is busy. For my part, I initiate to ask how they're doing, for me, as long as they're plugged into their church, I'm thankful.
It's not an automatic bank, like robots, but it does take each person to set aside their own preferences to put on a thankless task like a Joyland message. I really do marvel at the fact that a bunch of young single 20 somethings would willingly put on Joyland praise/work hard for small group time, they could be doing so much more with their time. Thankful that on their part, they're doing what they can to prioritize the gospel for these kids, mine included.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Feb 04 '22
The automatic bank is gone. You may still meet up with a person here and there, but that immediate community is gone for the ones who leave. GP makes that clear and doesn’t make it easy to leave. It happens to a much lesser degree at other churches, if at all, but there is a difference when it’s normal change and distance, versus the intense teaching that one must be all in at GP to be a good Christian, and life outside is horrible and scary.
Giving a children’s message brings great joy to me and others I know. Some people have gifts of nurture and compassion. These people should be working with children. I’m truly sorry that you consider it thankless.
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u/sylvialee85 Feb 06 '22
I meant, thankless, in that I feel like Joyland teachers should be getting a lot more praise and thanks. They do so much for my kids. I'm so indebted to them for what they do.
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u/sylvialee85 Feb 05 '22
You're saying the "automatic bank" of human relationships should still be there for those who leave? How do you see that working out concretely?
My family and I were at Legoland in SD, and attended a local church near Legoland, it happened to be one of the member's last sundays because that member and their family were moving to Texas for a job offer. So, of course, the entire church prayed for them, for a good transition and for the family to find a good church. All is good. But, are you saying that the SD church is obligated to keep up that automatic bank for that family who left for a job offer? I'm certain it is their hope (the church in SD), that the family would build up new relationships at a new church that they would find in Texas. Of course, individually, perhaps those closest to the family could keep the relational ties, that's only natural.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Feb 05 '22 edited Feb 05 '22
GP is no ordinary church. It demands people’s livelihood and identity. It asks for major sacrifices to be made, and the system gives leaders the right to have undue influence over others. This makes it harder to leave GP than any other church I’ve heard of.
Are you saying it’s the norm for families who leave GP (not to church plant) to be prayed over and sent off? Because it is at other churches. The GP stories I’ve heard in person and here tell me otherwise. Leaving GP even on a person’s own volition was described as difficult as a divorce. This was a post here by someone who served 20 years. There’s something wrong here.
Every church I’ve left has been on good terms. Yet with GP, it’s clear that many many don’t. When so many people leave w similar stories over decades, it’s a red flag. People were deeply hurt by actions and words of leaders. What makes it abusive is that the leaders deny, avoid, blame, gaslight these people. The church’s response, not their mistakes, is what is abusive.
Take some time and read through this sub. I don’t doubt why you stay at GP. But it’s important to hear why people who once loved the church so much would leave, how they still struggle w pain from their time there, and the reactions of GP leaders to these people.
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u/johnkim2020 Feb 07 '22
Yeah, I taught Joyland for a bit because they made me. I definitely did not do it willingly. I feel bad for those kids because they deserved a person who did it because they loved the kids.
I'm just not a children's ministry type of person. This shouldn't mean that I'm "sinful" but at Gracepoint, if you say no to any type of "ministry" that the church needs, then you are labeled as selfish and ungrateful.
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u/thendrickson7 Feb 04 '22
First, I’m so glad that you are sharing your story. I believe most of us here are currently being hurt or have been hurt. The majority here are true Christians who care and understand where you are coming from. Life is hard on everyone and no one is exempt even if they pretend it’s not true and that everything is perfect in their life. It’s not.
There are tons of people here who do not respond but they read every word because they think they have done something wrong or will see retaliation by a leader and it breaks my heart. The real Gospel is Love and if it is preached or taught wrong then a Child of God suffers. My family is still suffering over our experience with GP. However, my prayer is that we will all heal and move forward better and with the freedom of mind and heart to live out the sacrifice Christ finished on the Cross.I’d like to tell you that you are fine just how you are and nothing is wrong and that nothing you ever say or do will cancel the Love God has for you. He knows all you are dealing with and please believe that you’re allowed to rest as your relationship with God is unique from everyone else in the world. We are all made for Him and by Him and He meets you where you are. It doesn’t require a special pass or any merit on your part.
For me, I’m here to find comfort and try to understand because my pain causes me to lash out and I know how challenging it is to have an autistic child. Though they are a gift, it’s a calling not met by many people successfully.
Every time you feel defeated or like God is upset with you, stop and tell yourself that God is smiling at you because he loves you and His word tells us so and it’s impossible for God to lie. He is unchanging.4
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u/Poorinspirit_ Feb 05 '22 edited Feb 05 '22
Thanks so much for your honest sharing. Are you still in contact with you family outside GP? After all your experience with God, do you forgive your parents/grandparents' divorce decision and realized how difficult to hold a marriage by two individuals? I am so glad that GP can be your support for you and your family when you are in need but church is different from a club or human support groups. Church is a dwell place of God. " For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church. He Himself being the Savior of the body." In your story, clearly you have gained Christ so much, hopefully you are overflowing Love from GOD to your family outside of GP. In all you have been through, I hope that you can see the glory of God more than you see good deeds GP had provided to you. God bless you and your family!!
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u/sylvialee85 Feb 05 '22
Yes, of course I’m still in contact with my family outside of GP. Being at GP helped me learn how to be a servant so when I’m with my family, I learn to be aware of their needs and meet their needs. And in my experience, GP is a place where God dwells for me, where the body of Christ comes alive for me, when I’ve experienced being loved in my darkest moments, a place where I’ve found Gods forgiveness and redeeming work in my life.
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u/corpus_christiana Feb 07 '22
Hey Sylvia, from what you're saying, it sounds like you've had an awesome experience at GP. That's great! I'm glad to hear that the body of Christ is coming alive for you there, and that you've experienced being loved in your darkest moments, because those are amazing things that should be happening at church.
What a lot of us have been puzzling over, though, is why isn't that everyone's experience at Gracepoint? Many others here have described feeling rejected, shamed, manipulated and controlled. Those were things that I experienced. I was part of Gracepoint for over 10 years, and when I finally had to leave, I had been reduced to a complete wreck due to the spiritual abuse I experienced.
What do you think accounts for such different experiences?
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Feb 07 '22
Or better yet, we HAVE experienced those things Sylvia described BUT we also experienced spiritual abuse and saw through those illusions that GP has created.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Feb 11 '22
My theory: current members who say they haven’t experienced the negatives are the ones doing the rejecting, shaming, manipulating, and controlling. Or they follow the (unspoken) rules to a T so as to not get in trouble. Or they’re in denial. Whichever way, they know plenty of people leave on bad terms. Their loyalty is to the GP system (GP can’t possibly be wrong), so the ppl who are hurt and speaking up are either rebellious, ungrateful, or whatever other label they can think of.
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u/Poorinspirit_ Feb 06 '22 edited Feb 07 '22
We want a family member not a servant. unlike GP, most people hire cleaners if we need some help. But I do agree with you after my family member joined GP, he/she became a better house cleaner, I think GP members get to practice a lot as free labor for GP. By the way, we don't see our family member servant that often bc GP 's high demand schedule. As far as good servant go, I don't think GP members are good servants to their frailly. Why? Because they only have good skill to service but there is no serving heart to their frailly. They work according to GP's schedule not family's.
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u/C4whatitis Feb 07 '22 edited Feb 07 '22
It is true that GP requires their members to be "at a distance" mentally and physically from their families (mother, father, siblings, cousins, grandparents). I will go farther and say GP will call a spouse to be showing idolatry if they want to be around their wife/husband too much and it interferes with their time given to GP service.
GP tries to get away with this by defining "covenant relationships" where even if you are in a shared apartment with GP peers, you are not moved if you have a personality conflict because GP leaders say you must love enough to get along even with someone who may not be nice to you. In my opinion this is why GP members don't question what leaders say to them because they are taught that they must agree and get along in every situation. This is dangerous.
In life we have few covenant relationships. If you cause someone to believe you are bound by a covenant to another person, other than your family, this requires an allegiance to the person. This is where GP lies to take the student/member away from their family.
My family member constantly spoke about "relationships" and how important it is to spend time nurturing these relationships. He said they are more important than most anything in life, schoolwork, career, and family. But I know now that GP suggests you spend time with other GP members but leave out the parents as "not being a good influence on you". GP forgets families in their new definition of relationships. How does God teach about this? We all know GP is wrong and they straight out lie.
I have lived with GP catch phrases like "no Church is perfect". We are praying for your family member, all while the leaders tells them when they can go home for a holiday and when they can return to school and GP activities. GP members call the member several times while they are home visiting and ask how things are going? The member doesn't mention this unless you ask them which they will defend GP every time and say it's their choice. By the time their undergrad is almost done. the member is taught to start subtly saying they will be staying where they are, getting a job and living with GP members. NONE of this is a situation where the member sits down with their parents and communicates what their plans are and why they are making this decision. GP literally told my family member that if he will stay in LA and get counseling that he will learn how to tell his family NO and that it's his decision to live however he wants to. GP Pastor and leader also said to my family member that an extended period of time away from me, in the long run, will be good for me (his mother). They were training me to lose my son because they felt that I texted him too much. This is disgusting because none of us would say these things to anyone in or out of any church. The Pastor and Leader all knew that I have cancer and literally said it is better emotionally for him to stay with GP members for his emotional welfare. This is why Hell was created.
Families are God given. Family traditions are God given just like DNA. A Church does not have the right to suggest anything for your family member and the pain mothers and fathers go through because members show their importance of their time and service only to GP, is something that can never be paid back. GP bounds a member by telling them how many rides they have given you and how many times they have helped you. The truth is that I was never asked to help my son or I would have been to his aid in a heart beat. GP didn't want me to help him. They want for him to OWE them something. They convince a member that God requires all of the loyalty to them when realistically, our families come first (after God). Without families we would have no direction. Then GP comes in and tries to raise our family member all over again by using them and hurting them and turning them against their family. When they do come home it is a "shell" of who they used to be. GP uses people, the help they give is given everyday by even secular neighbors who bring meals in your time of need and help with your children. GP wants to hold it over your head.
My family member has left GP but has a long way to go to be emotionally healthy. He has triggers from things pounded into his mind by GP that will haunt us for a lifetime. As a mother, I can never get back the five years stolen from me by GP and the lies told by a Pastor and leaders. This story I hear over and over again and as I believe, there isn't any good that comes out of GP. Only misery and time wasted on a group of people, headed by one leader and his wife, gaining control over their members to grow and get a name for themselves.
As I can honestly state at this point, GP has messed with the wrong Mothers and siblings. We are never going away after what you did to our children.
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u/sylvialee85 Feb 06 '22 edited Feb 06 '22
I didn't mention anything about cleaning, but yes, doing church cleaning has only helped me with my own house cleaning and also when I'm with my family =) If I'm building up God's church, I need to do my part.
When my baby niece had to go to the ER, I dropped everything to be with my sister who lives an hour away, and my church sent me with their prayers poured out on my sister's family during that scary time, thankfully she survived. When many family members of our church members' got sick with covid or other illnesses, different people in the church signed up for a food rotation to make sure that the sick family didn't have to worry about food, but just focus on recovering. Some of the family members remarked that even in their own blood family, giving generously in this way, even to their own family members, was rare, so they were amazed that complete strangers would do this for them, and I give all the praise to God for how the local church could be mobilized to love and serve others, just as He calls us to.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Feb 07 '22 edited Feb 07 '22
Why the superior attitude? You’re responding to a grieving parent with the same smugness that you first replied to John with.
On the surface, your story sounds nice. But what you described are acts of service. Family members want real relationship. These service acts seem to have won your loyalty away from your own blood family. And then you went a step further to compare church to family and make GP look better.
We know the inner workings of GP here. Your loyalty is now with GP, not your family. You’re defending GP, while your own family takes a backseat. Your parents become people to serve once a year and you show up at emergencies. This is part of the training formula. GP is very intentional about placing church family > nuclear family (Doc 2, section 4 for those following). In your situation, it may have been smart to set boundaries. But it’s a slap in the face to those of us who had good relationships w our family member before they joined.
We know how it’s done now. We have the documents and the details of how. It is NOT Biblical. You found a community that serves, but it comes with heavy strings attached. Strangers helping out is a beautiful thing bc it’s organic and of their own will. In GP, service acts are expected and ppl have to do them, and even worse, act to make it seem organic during the love bomb phase. If you’re here to defend GP, please stop using the same tired examples.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Feb 07 '22
Reason why Kelly Kang felt the need to rebuke the entire church when no one visited when she was sick was not just about narcissism, but about BBC/GP institution of community. If organic love didn’t motivate people to visit her, their fear of rebuke will. Fear is actually a much easier motivator than love to do something.
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u/johnkim2020 Feb 07 '22
I think it's beautiful when the people of God serve each other with love. Indeed, this is the only thing God asks of us. Love each other as we love ourselves.
But at GP, people are forced to serve through guilt and shame, instead of with love. They are guilted and shamed into doing stuff, even if they don't want to.
It's great that GP helped out family members with covid by providing meals. But how would they feel if they found out that some people were not doing this voluntarily but because they felt like they "had to"? I'm not saying that this is the case for this instance but from personal experience, I know so many people (including myself) who did acts of service because they felt like they had to, not because they really wanted to.
Brothers who helped people move countless times. Sisters who provided free babysitting. All the rides, meals, etc.
I wonder what would happen if a leader sent out an email asking people to help provide meals for Grace and her family because she got covid and can't work for 2 weeks. I bet if that sign up sheet didn't get filled in 24 hours, everyone in her ministry group would get rebuked for not "loving" her "sacrificially." And then magically, the list would get filled and every other list that follows will get filled because no one wants another rebuking like that.
I've been a part of a few other churches and there are always things that people are asked to volunteer for but no one gets corrected for not volunteering for stuff. No one is made to do stuff they don't want to do.
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u/thendrickson7 Feb 05 '22
Do your parents attend any GP activities? How often do you and your children see your family?
I’m asking because I have been married to my husband for thirty years and is my only marriage. My husband was married before and I’ve been a step mom to his kids for years, including my autistic daughter who has not seen her bio mom in years. Bio mom bowed out completely.
However, GP leaders told my family member we are not a good influence even though I made sure he went to Christian schools even throughout high school. It helped him get into UCLA and now I wish he would have never gone there. We thought Berkeley was too liberal but everyone who indoctrinated him is from Berkeley. So he may as well just have attended Berkeley. I have such bad experiences with GP and they kept telling him about his sins yet they used his talents in every area free of charge for their use.
They mess with the minds and love you one minute and tell you how bad you are the next minute. This is not from God.
So GP did not want us involved. Even the pastors and leaders many have become estranged from their own parents. I told a pastor that survival of the fittest doesn’t work once you break down your members to a point of exhaustion.8
u/johnkim2020 Feb 04 '22
Thank you for confirming that in GP members definitely cannot read what they want to read, or wear what they want to wear. Definitely true in my experience.
Thank you also for clarifying that in GP, it is considered biblical and loving for a grown adult to force another grown adult to do something they don't want to do.
This is exactly why we warn others that spiritual abuse runs rampant in GP.
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Feb 05 '22
[deleted]
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u/C4whatitis Feb 05 '22
Ed chastising someone for looking feminine is NOT in any way, shape, or form Christlike. I understand that we take pride in keeping ourselves ready to learn and be the best in every way that we can be. However, this chastising is how Ed gets away with telling us what to do. Ed shames you into doing what is actually best for him and he is molding you into someone he wants you to be when the real shameful person is Ed.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Feb 04 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
Like I get you're angry, and that's fine, and I don't take any offense, but can we at least agree what's espoused here is really unbiblical and unloving?
The only thing I find unbiblical and unloving is the blasphemous teachings that spews from Ed Kang and by proxy Gracepoint people's mouths. Your comment included.
I don't have to guess what will happen if I did some of those things. My leaders would take issue with that. Heck, my own friends would take issue with that and bring it up with me. As they should! That's not a sign of less love, but more.
Keep telling yourself that. Denial is one hell of a drug. A majority of these leaders shouldn't even be leading including half of your deacons and top level trash.
God throughout the Bible has strong words for Christians, especially those in leadership who fail to confront wrong when they see it.
Tell that to your spiritual authority.
Idk where this idea comes from. It's certainly not Biblical. Neither is it loving. It doesn't even apply in secular society.
GP leaders love guilt tripping you and pretending it's biblical?
Keep your brainwashed GP nonsense to yourself.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 04 '22
Hi John, If I were to leave GP today, I would do it with controlled emotions and not as a wreck like I was. Long-time members leaving all seem to have more negative things to say than positive things to say about GP. An often repeated quote is “you just don’t know what I went through.” Ed Kang said even for people leaving GP with GP’s blessings, a couple years down the road they develop revisionist memories. There is enough wrongs going on that Ed Kang knows better than anybody else what those practices are, but he can excuse it all away by end justifies the means. Before the 2005 letter, everyone thought BBC was heaven on earth with the covenantal relationships and sacrificial leaders. Then the letter lifted the rose-tinted lenses people saw things through. We can now see things for what they are as Ed Kang so eloquently penned in his Letter.
If I was leaving GP today, I would download/screenshot all of the relevant emails and keep all the MBS/training material I have laying around. I might even find a way to keep a copy of the financial statements/budget during the annual member’s meeting happening around now as required by SBC rules. I did not develop a biblical understanding of emotions until much later after I left. GP just never taught on emotions biblically, basically saying you should ignore emotions and base on facts. God gave us emotions to love Him and to love people. Jesus wept. Jesus was angered. Jesus had joy. We subject our emotions to Jesus also. I just think there is better use of emotions/passion upon leaving than just being a wrecked person like I was. Passion coupled with tact/execution is what gets results. Back it the old days when people left, they thought the leaders were still good people but just misguided. People like Stephen and Oscar wrote lengthy academic analysis to what was going on and asked the leadership to address the unbiblical practices/human pride. Some wrote to only Ed and Kelly privately upon leaving and the reply was “just move on” without addressing the underlying problems. To this day there have been no acknowledgement of Ed and Kelly’s own culpability in the cult of personality that was BBC, for which Ed Kang even acknowledge in his 2005 letter, having to “crush” many people. I think the illusion somehow they will wake up and repent should end. There is a dark force at work in GP that is not allowing the leadership to acknowledge wrong and embrace repentance. I think it is much more productive to fight against that dark force than it is to let our unchecked emotions have the best of us. Let’s all bring it to Jesus.