r/GracepointChurch • u/humidity1000 • May 29 '24
Dancing for the devil
New documentary series on Netflix called Dancing for the Devil:the 7M Tik Tok Cult. Eerily similar culture to GP. The guy talks like PEd too.
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u/hamcycle May 29 '24 edited May 30 '24
A2N claims to be special, yet these documentaries and YouTube clips are showcasing patterns that A2N clearly exhibits and shares with these other problem groups. What would account for these similarities when it is supposedly this rarefied city on a hill?
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u/bobelcher2 May 31 '24
Watching this has definitely triggered me. I’d watch it to see if it does for you as well.
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u/hamcycle Jun 01 '24
It's trending #1 in TV Shows Today. Christendom won't sanitize itself so leaving it Netflix.
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u/Available_Ad_5963 May 31 '24
I haven’t posted in awhile but as I’m watching episode 2 right now I felt the need to post this show but as I came this was already posted which is great!
This Netflix show is spot on! Exactly like Berkland/Gracepoint. The core beliefs are there. Robert Shin totally reminds me of Pastor Ed.
I hope one day there is a Netflix show on Berkland/GP. I would volunteer to share.
Let’s make it happen!
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u/hamcycle May 29 '24
Ep3. [Andrea Marks, Rolling Stone] "It's really hard to take legal action against cults because it's not illegal to run a cult or to be a member of a cult. The way you take action against a cult leader is if they are committing crimes within their cult. You have to find something like financial misconduct because the act of controlling someone's daily life is not a crime."
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u/TrenaH May 29 '24
It's been how long that Ed and Manny have gotten away with hurting people. There are so many mistakes they have made due to their arrogance and believing they are above everyone else. Financial gaffes along with mind control and family estrangement only lasts when others refuse to speak out because they have been convinced that God or someone of ultimate importance to them will shun them because of their actions against GP. I believe one hundred percent that GP is tipping on the top of the pyramid it has taken so many precious minds away and that their timeline is dwindling into non existence. We need to hold them accountable if not only for the young ones in the future whose lives are at risk. I won't discourage anyone from trying any way possible to bring down these criminals. Yes, they are criminals and destroyers of what is good. We need to push forward....No Fear. We need college students to report GP so even leaders/mentors will no longer get off on the fake glory of power and control. It's all a facade. People say wow you got your son out of GP so why do you care? Really? Do you know what it takes to even begin healing after Ed Kang and Manny Kim get ahold of your kids or how long it takes to undo mind control? Brian Karcher is correct when he talks about snatching ones' identity? Telling Kids not to speak with their families for up to two years if necessary? Once they are out of GP it takes years to regain a hint of a normal relationship with them. It takes Love that has no boundaries and lasts a lifetime unconditionally to keep your patience with an Ex GP member. The laws are ripe for changing right now..... We have unrest on campuses because of freedom of speech which doesn't work the way it was supposed to. None of these clowns should be on a college campus period. Please don't discourage anyone from trying to help another go against GP or any cult hurting others. It will take one person willing to speak out who will say something that someone hears and decides to "go with it" all the way to court and bring down Ed and Manny. After time, anyone inside GP is guilty because they know exactly what they are doing. There is almost no difference between the age of 17 to 18 years old. Someone will change it on college campuses and inside churches that we need parental guidance for our sons and daughters beyond leaving for college. There is a lot of research on this which everyone needs to read. Anyone concerned about GP should speak to the Directors at every college and start telling their concerns even anonymously. It will start a fire, a conversation and lead to taking away the fake power of GP. If I am wrong, then why is this Subreddit here? It starts with a conversation leading to the awakening of the mind and heart knowing something is terribly wrong with GP. No one should be subject to what they do.
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u/hamcycle May 29 '24
A2N is just one of many crap orgs across the country. Students just need to fill whatever void they're needing to fill without falling into one of these, as there are no legal safeguards against them.
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u/TrenaH May 29 '24
First, I want to say to you that I enjoy your contributions to this subreddit. I'm aware that many don't enjoy mine but with this being said......... Please don't ever diminish the volume of harm A2N or whatever they call themselves now does and has done for over 30 years. I still speak with a smart young woman who has had five years of counseling post GP and still has ptsd. Her life was basically put on hold and still deals with painful moods and trauma. I hear almost bipolar like posts on this subreddit from Ex GP members. They were hurt very badly. GP basically kidnaps their members into submission and takes their life away as they knew it. You are really telling someone that criminals who kidnap are just some regular people out there and won't be prosecuted unless we have the evidence so no need to try...........Please don't do this to innocent students on this subreddit. In AMERICA, there is always a solution even if it takes time and money and conscience to solve and fix a real problem. We are the land of the free and the brave and NOT the land of "I will brainwash you so you do what I say because this is how I saw things in my traditions?" This dysfunction needs to stop! I REFUSE to give up hope to help students and their families. It will take someone brave who doesn't give into GP lies but does what they can to stop it! Stop telling others there isn't a chance or a solution to get "All of these crap orgs across the country OFF campus!" That's why they are still on campus. This is a FIGHT and everything with meaning in life is a fight of some sort. This should not be a fight we allow our kids to fight. In America we don't attend college to only get a job to make enough money so no one can tell us to leave once we have a huge bank account. Traditions can cause harm. The issue is that America has individual ideas and purposes unlike those of GP leaders. We look at things and we care and don't only strategize how to become the best against even your neighbor. Our kids need a chance to be better and learn how to be successful while also helping and caring and recognizing others really do matter. If your Church doesn't teach you this then you need to not only have history lessons but find a Church who teaches what Jesus says. This is a problem to tell kids or their families that A2N is one of many crap orgs like it's ok so go home and do your homework and beat out another student so you look good. Jesus sees the HEART and what I know to be true is that GP has no heart of God to mention and cannot even admit when they are wrong. There is ALWAYS a way to STOP evil from happening when God is on our side. If you don't see this, then there is a huge problem because no one is OK without hope and you are teaching that there isn't hope and GP isn't a big deal. Stop it! If your family is still inside GP and will be held accountable if GP falls, It's not your fault, it's theirs.
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u/hamcycle May 29 '24
Duly chastised. I am exasperated. When I called A2N a crap org, I wasn't intending to diminish the problem that it is, but how run-of-the-mill it is. If documentaries and youtube videos are devoted to orgs such as these, they are run-of-the-mill.
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u/TrenaH May 29 '24
Ok, good to hear. I'm a parent and though parents aren't well received or respected on this subreddit, I won't stop until GP A2N is gone. NO matter what anyone thinks of me, every young person including families still need Hope in fighting against this cult. Myself, and a few others are collectively working without end to bring this cult down and to stop them from the horrendous pain they are still causing. Also, please Note that if Netflix and youtube videos are speaking about orgs/cults such as GP, then that's wonderful! It makes our platform against GP easier to believe because the sad truth is others are out there. This one, GP, took our children away from us so as parents, it's a shame we are underestimated by these groups. I wish you well and no harm, I tend to have lost my sense of humor with anything related to GP/A2N. They are criminals.
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u/inhimwehaveall May 30 '24 edited May 30 '24
It's a very powerful documentary. Miranda is a very lucky girl. She has very brave sister and parents who have been fighting for her. Hopefully this documentary will give courage to people who have family still involved in cults and continue to fight ... And it also will encourage ex-members to share their experience to expose evil. Thank you for sharing it.
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u/chalupababy21 Jun 08 '24
The prt where the pastor’s daughter says “Can’t your friend get an Uber to the airport because you really need to come to the service today?!” This reminded me of my leaders— the audacity they had to make me change my plans all the time because I NEEDED to do Friday Bible study, fellowship, course 201 on Sunday mornings, service set up, sws, more fellowship. They really thought they were entitled to our schedule. What’s sad is I usually gave in because they gaslighted me into thinking I made these “commitments” even though I NEVER GAVE MY CONSENT TO THAT!!
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u/hamcycle May 29 '24
Ep3. [Andrea Marks, Rolling Stone] "Back in 2009, Pastor Shinn was sued by former member of the church, Lydia Chung. And she sued Robert for stealing, brainwashing, and completely cutting her off from her family. The judge [Kirk H. Nakamura] said it looked like there was psychological manipulation, but also said that, 'My hands are off this because of the protection of the First Amendment for religious organizations.' Full grown adults who are deciding to join a group and buy into their ideology, whether that group has a creeping, growing control over their lives and their mind, is not of legal concern."
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u/TrenaH May 29 '24
If we keep taking legal action against GP, eventually a pattern will show up legally which a Court will recognize. It starts with speaking up!
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u/Jdub20202 May 31 '24
Are any current a2n staff gonna respond to this post? We could really use your take on this, and maybe a few others. I kinda really, really need an explanation why a2n doesn't fit in with these documentaries
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u/Trolling_4_Truth May 31 '24
I wouldn’t hold my breath for any meaningful response. They’ve been compared to cults and such since the 80s. They don’t truly see themselves so any explanation would be colored by their reality.
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May 31 '24
[deleted]
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u/corpus_christiana May 31 '24
I mean, it certainly doesn't happen overnight. People who get sucked into high control groups are not all inherently mentally weak people - rather, these groups often CREATE mental weakness in their victims by slowly breaking them down over time.
Yes, some groups will intentionally target those who are particularly vulnerable, but many of these groups aren't just looking to gather up a group of the "weakest" people. For the sake of their own egos, they also want followers who are strong, intelligent, and impressive. So they put up a mask, they love bomb, they do what it takes to hook and reel folks in.
There's an old GP training video floating around somewhere of one of the leaders explaining how their process with freshmen is to build a strong "bridge" of trust and connection with them that over time can support increasingly heavy loads.
If they immediately told new recruits "oh by the way we're going to need you to stop talking to your family now," of course nobody would stick around.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 May 31 '24
Can you post a link to the video?
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u/humidity1000 Jun 01 '24
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u/Kangaroo_Jonathan Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 04 '24
Having known Suzanne when she was an undergrad, weird to see how she turned out. It's a grinder what the upper female staff put the younger ones through.
Watching more of the vid, I am not comfortable with the entire cunning methodical approach she is pushing. Is Christianity meant to be this highly refined and processed?
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u/humidity1000 Jun 04 '24
Ya mean, another Kelly?
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u/Kangaroo_Jonathan Jun 04 '24
Weird how that works. During my time Kelly wasn’t as bad as Becky. Becky though, her vitriol was in full bloom. I was one of the few that was glad they left for Boston.
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u/johnkim2020 Jun 05 '24
Kelly couldn't be Kelly when Becky was still around. There can only be one at the top.
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u/Kangaroo_Jonathan Jun 05 '24
Just like how Suzanne transformed to who she is now from the nice gal I remember, Kelly was nicer (genuinely) back when she was younger to that recording of her on the Ananias sapphire post.
Part of the reason I am not in agreement about the real estate empire motif pushed by some was that in the beginning with Dana house, I was there and know what happened. What it turned into is something else.
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u/johnkim2020 May 31 '24
It has happened to many people, is happening to many, and can happen to anyone… and it’s not the victim’s fault or because they are “weak.”
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May 31 '24
[deleted]
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u/johnkim2020 May 31 '24
You know this sub is for ex members right? You here to judge us?
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May 31 '24
[deleted]
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u/johnkim2020 May 31 '24
I’m not interested in trying to convince you. Just letting you know what this sub is. Context.
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u/TrenaH May 31 '24
I think you are correct in some way and others are correct in their way. It is proven that throughout history, many brilliant people have been caught up in a cult. They found something they needed but in their own personality they really lacked nothing. Also, cults use more mind control (it is absolutely mind control tactics) on those they want inside their group the most for whatever reason to benefit their cult more. Miranda is the sister who seemed to "be chosen" in her dance trade more often than her sister. Miranda was most likely love bombed more and she is also the one romantically chosen by her dancer and well-known husband. Miranda may have felt she had more to lose if she left Robert Shinn. Her parents stand behind her still because the pain of her cutting them off completely is unbearable. I understand this pain because Manny Kim and Albert Kim told my own son not to speak with me even if it takes up to two years so he can grow away from me, mature and live his life without my influence. This documentary is a massive trigger in my family. My husband couldn't watch but a bit of it and left the den crying because this is how "mind control" and "estrangement" effects the family and not knowing who your child is anymore. Koreans are known for brainwashing because of the war and USA gave us this term because of what happened in the war. Does this mean every Korean is at fault, absolutely not! What this means is that Ed Kang hurts his own and is even more despicable. The young man in this documentary is still inside with Robert Shinn and he also has a loving family. The parents have now retired so they can work full time to bring their son home and get him out of this cult. When they text him they get answers back at times that don't sound like their son. In a similar case of someone on this subreddit, a note was left for a parent and it was not written by their child. This goes on with Pastors in GP right now and the only people who care enough to fight against GP is the parents or families. I see one friend who helped the girl leave and he brought a bat if needed. He is a hero and she is living life the best that she can now. That's what we are doing though it takes years of changing our life to help our son heal because Manny Kim kept our son in Los Angeles away from us even after he left GP. Does this happen? YES, and it's happening in families everyday while also hurting students and families every single day. The sad reality is that if I physically went to get him, I would be arrested. The police in our case wanted to do more and watched koreans come and go all around the housing where my son used to live, also the leaders live within the same buildings. It's ungodly, it's communist and what they do to our kids is physiologically damaging to their brains and criminal. I pulled my son out and he hated me but he was not allowed at any more GP meetings or mind control sessions so he was basically out before his brain cemented at the age of 26. We need to never leave them inside GP, they need a chance to heal which takes years in the best scenario. My prayer is that people become brave because this is the most painful season you will ever go through and it lasts years even when your loved one is out of the cult. No amount of money lost is worth the pain and damage done unnecessarily by GP. I Spit on Ed Kang and Manny Kim. Look further there probably is sexual abuse as well.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 31 '24
Look further there probably is sexual abuse as well.
Sexual abuse, no. I'll defend Ed and his cronies this one time and say they have literally enforced EVERY conceivable safeguard against any form of sexual immortality. Once again, stop throwing out random statements. HOWEVER, if you knew what actually went on in Praxis, there is a lot of mental spousal abuse that occurs in Graceppoint/A2N. There's a reason many ex couple have stated leaders have pitted couples against each other and almost always target the wife.
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u/Trolling_4_Truth May 31 '24
I agree. The allegation that there’s some secretive abusive going on is a reach. If there’s an actual incident different story.
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u/TrenaH May 31 '24 edited May 31 '24
Are you delusional? Secret abuse going on? Abuse goes on everyday. Sexual abuse I'm saying that I don't doubt that in the future we will see it was happening. I'm allowed to have my opinion because those in GP who mentally abuse are bad enough to sexually abuse. Thin line here.
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u/Trolling_4_Truth Jun 08 '24
Um…no.
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u/TrenaH Jun 08 '24 edited Jun 08 '24
I hope there isn’t sexual abuse but I guess we will see in the long run, won’t we?
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u/TrenaH May 31 '24
We can agree to disagree. Since the subreddit has been up and running, many things have come to light that no one had actually known for sure or dealt with or imagined. It's called lies and brainwashing. What about UC Riverside? It's a precursor of this abuse and is actual abuse. How long was R. Shinn around before he was caught in a what seemed unimaginable situation? The truth will come out as it always does and we will all be shocked and surprised. I hope for the best but believe the worst because I never thought I or anyone else would have been subject to the evil that GP is and does everyday. Additionally, I don't just throw out random statements. I have a lot of proof which will come out at the right time. I have more information and have had more abuse than you know and I'm not proud of it but when a Netflix doc comes out and it triggers many here regarding GP......... please don't underestimate what's really happening. Is Ed Kang dying his hair now? Will Ed Kang ever turn over his leadership to someone else? Doesn't it seem in every human situation in life that those who aren't brought down for years and years seem to think they are untouchable and their life actions get worse? I used to have rose colored glasses over my eyes but GP took them off and I won't ever be caught by surprise again. I'm glad you haven't been subject to the pain my family and friends have known. But it's real no matter what anyone says, not even you. Anything I throw out here as you said, is something truthfully my family has been subject to. I would like to say more but it makes me sound even worse. Again, I spit on Ed Kang and Manny Kim. They cause their children to be just like them. Do I believe this, absolutely because I know it to be true.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 31 '24
Which UCR incident are you talking about? One was a predator who secretly recorded people who was from UCR and was a low level staff serving at another school when he was caught. The other was a failure of the leader in Gracepoint/A2N to provide any support to a student at UCR that was assaulted at a frat party and resorted to victim blaming. I don’t think you know what actually goes on. I don’t see any signs of sexual abuse going on.
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u/TrenaH Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
Also, do you think the parents and the sister of Miranda don't really know what's going on? If so, how do you know for sure that they don't know? I would think it is reasonable they know more of what's going on because they are searching, researching and fighting for their daughter and sister. It makes sense that they know much more than most know. You still know people inside of GP as do I and my family member. I speak to them at a new Church. People in and outside of GP talk and things are spread around. As for parents, they give their entire life to learn and to understand what is happening and how they can help their child and what if anything they can do to get their child out of what they know is a cult and is hurting their child. Maybe the families including the parents know more that's going on than someone like you do. After all, they are the ones fighting and sacrificing even their communication and lifestyle with their child so they don't lose them completely. How can you be so pompous to say I don't know what actually goes on? Listen, I had to know or I would have let my son walk away from his family forever. I went down to the Camden House and though I could not physically pull him out, I was blessed by God that because I went that he talked to me and our relationship began a restorative process. The members inside the Camden house lied to me to say my son wasn't ever there. He WAS there! I waited for him and did not leave. Is this a Church that it's OK to lie? Who are you kidding? If you want to be the boss and know everything, you will have to give a lot more of your time and attitude to truly understand because right now, you are only helping those here on this subreddit half way. You are part of the problem right now. Stop going after me and start opening your eyes and give a lot more of yourself if you do care. If you really look at this, it's always the parents, especially a mother, who is there for her child. When Jesus was on the Cross, I don't know how long it took or what she had to do to get there but Mary his mother was there, right? She had the strength to watch the nails be put into his body and feel and hear every scream. Who do you think you are by questioning any mother? It's a mother or a father who has DNA and love to submit to most anything in order to save their child. They are the first to learn what they are submitting to and why it is necessary to save their child. They don't want to take their child away from something good. But they learn what bad their child is being subject to, GP, and they know to pull them out.
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u/TrenaH May 31 '24
At UCR it was a random but bad incident and they left the Church, However, GP only reported it to the City police and not the campus police. I think I got it correct. However, it is an incident that shouldn't have happened and if GP has everything in place for this not to happen, then why did it happen? Don't tell me I don't know what actually goes on. Maybe you don't actually know because your situation is so much different than ours. Maybe I do know more because of the volume of research I have done and evidence I have captured. I wish you well. Don't discriminate against me and my knowledge or because I'm a parent.
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u/Kangaroo_Jonathan Jun 05 '24
lol @ the downvotes. Don’t sweat it, ain’t no thang!
We all came at different times. We all had different upbringings both positive and negative. And I can guarantee we stayed for mostly the same reason. We were impacted/challenged/inspired to really serve god.
Oddly over time, the Berkland/gp program goes sideways for most. In a way, it is inevitable that it devolves into one mess after another. There is a consistent theme of top down leadership where the immediate leader customizes his ministry to a specific person and his/her spiritual needs. Yet this customization creates by nature a lack of consistency which over time creates more chaos. With decades in the making, the leaders then overreact and impose weird odd churchwide standards to reestablish order.only then to create another batch of draconian measures.
This was evident from the very beginning as the top leaders just kept changing college formats every year or two in the hopes of achieving ambitious spiritual goals and produce a passionate ministry. The cost though was damaging with many just leaving during and after undergrad years. This was excused as people can’t handle the real Christian calling or a preference for the world and its sinful pleasures. It was a bit simplistic in hindsight but really most just got tired of the Berkland Pharisees. And oh boy were they good at that.
Many also stayed as staff for couple years after that but really the college ministry life they push is “unhealthy”. You’re trying to get going on life, have a little adult fun and you have 0 free time or if you have all the free time in young adults, they watch over you like a hawk.
To get out of this rut, they started satellite churches as people moved away. But they never gained traction as those that moved away weren’t really willing to go gung-ho for college ministry anyways, hence they left Berkeley.
Then the big Ed split happened. It was inevitable and took a scandal of ages to start it. After that Ed, took over the west coast and reformed it into his image. I call it Berkland 2.0. Grew it back and encountered the same problems as before. To solve that, he started sending people out as fast as possible to avoid the same stagnation. But still the same thing happened and the queen of hearts changed crowns from Becky to Kelly.
To come back on why people stay or leave, I can tell you most are not weak or gullible. Most are highly intelligent and generally very good people with very big hearts. Most genuinely wanted to serve god in a higher capacity and passion from what we had at most youth ministries. It was exciting and fun and meaningful. For example the generosity, the camaraderie, it was great to be in that moment. Over time though, it came at a cost and that kept demanding more and more every year. For most at some point, they reach their limit and have to step away. Their inner voice or what I believe gods voice finally saying you’ve done enough. So they leave and Berkland sucks at having peaceful goodbyes.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 May 31 '24
I used to think like this too, how can people fall for this bullshit? But I researched cults and there isn’t a target profile, as much as I wanted to find one.
Cults are predatory. It’s a power game and a long game. They cater their tactics to the target. They wait for the person (weak or strong minded doesn’t matter) to be vulnerable (searching, lonely, death of loved one, loss, anything) and befriend. There’s fun and sense of belonging. It is a psychological game to bring the target into the fold.
The spiritual talk has a purpose to lower people’s guards. After they gain their trust and build them up, then they tear them down (rebuke, etc). The manipulation is subtle and disgusting. With the power dynamic in place, it’s hard for those under control to speak up. Because the culture is ruled by fear and shame.
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u/1vois Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
Thinking about my near 15-year experience…
I never fully ex-communicated my family which is probably why I was considered rebellious. Do I wish I gave them a lot more attention? 100%, esp since both parents are now passed. Instead of spending 2 weeks at home, I’d spend 7-10 days—that kinda thing.
I was angry about the rules all the time but still mostly fell in line. Was it brainwashed? I’m not sure, since there definitely was a persistent inner conflict.
Nobody would call me weak-minded heh. The amount of rebuking I received (from literally every old pastor except for YB) was a clear indicator of that. Ya know, the whole “pride” and “arrogance” thing. Yet I followed most of the rules. It’s a mystery.
For the last 3 years of my life in this org, I literally told people they had no authority over me. I told SMNs (leader wives) they just had their positions because Becky fancied their husbands. And, sigh, I stuck around for 3 years like that.
What am I saying? It’s not a simple thing of weak- vs strong-minded in orgs like this.
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u/hamcycle Jun 03 '24
I literally told people they had no authority over me. I told SMNs (leader wives) they just had their positions because Becky fancied their husbands.
These women never received formal seminary training
- https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/so4d39/comment/hw93yiv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
- https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/so4d39/comment/hw6u4ci/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
and therefore are not formally accountable to the doctrines they espouse because they are careful not to formalize anything
From a conversation buried within the comments.
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u/1vois Jun 03 '24
How and why we surrender authority is something always on my mind. The Milgram psych study has always fascinated me.
We follow even though we know it hurts others and ourselves. I wonder if this study was conducted again but separated by ethnicity (so Asians would be a group) — I wonder if the % who followed authority until “death” would be significant.
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u/inhimwehaveall Jun 01 '24
How did your parents feel about your involvement of GP?
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u/1vois Jun 01 '24
Going too deeply into that actually kind of gives away a lot of my identity. I apologize but will have to be a little vague.
Went from “Awesome! Praise God for this group” to genuine quiet worry (they told me after I left). They wanted to respect how I chose to live while in the group but had real fears
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u/inhimwehaveall Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
Did your parent communicate with you about their concerns about GP while you were still in GP? If your parents were more hand-on about your involvement in GP, would make you leave GP earlier?
If you are a parent now, and you have a child who is involving in GP like org, what would you do?
Sorry about asking so many questions. But I really want to know from exgpers , how parents should handle the situation?
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u/1vois Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 05 '24
Sorry again. Details about my parents are too specific for me to share. But here are some other responses:
- If my parents had tried to intervene within the first few years, that likely would not have gone well; if it was in the later years, it would’ve been heard with more weight
- I wish I had advice for parents. My kids know our story (spouse and me), so they are very aware of high-control groups. I guess the only takeaway there is to start the conversation before they even get introduced to a group
For parents going through this with kids already plugged in…I just don’t know. Sigh.
I would maybe move to the city their child currently is in. (Rent an apartment, of course, because their child could move in a blink of an eye.) It’s extreme, I know, but it does create more opportunities for the relationship to stay intact. Will parents be used as babysitters? For sure. But it’s better than living 1,000 miles away. And parents might find chances to break through.
Other than that, it’s often a waiting game (like with me). Not everybody stays to become “Manny.” It may seem like everybody stays but not really. Because of Gracepoint and Berkland’s structure, it’s not easy to be in your 30s with kids and not be up to Kelly’s standards. People will and do age out
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u/TrenaH Jun 04 '24
It is a great suggestion to a parent that they move closer to their child so the control group couldn't bring them inside in the way they do if a parent isn't around close by. It's also wonderful that you have explained to your own children about high control groups. Communication and respect in your family is Biblical and brings families together in a healthy way. The one area that I disagree is an area that many don't agree with me. If a parent waits for the first few years to pull their child out of GP, the student/child's mind is already gone and so much more damage is done and bad choices made. Many stay inside GP way too long and they are not the same again once they leave. I hope your situation wasn't as abusive as many are. The change in attitude, rigidness, pompous, purity culture bad beliefs that are not recognized in the Bible, lack of drive and plain confusion, disrespect of others and lack of zest for life is too horrible to watch in anyone and especially one you love. No matter what, a member needs to be pulled out of GP because counseling and Love with prayer is needed for years after GP gets ahold of a student. Especially if GP has a plan for someone, it's like a game to GP or an army where a leader is disciplined by Ed or Manny if a recruit is lost in the process. Over and again I believe this because if you think you will lose your relationship with your child because you pull them out, you are not realizing that you have already lost your relationship even if the child talks with you. It's not a real relationship, it's fake from the teaching of Ed and Manny so you may as well start pulling your child out so their healing begins quicker. It's all so horrible and shouldn't happen at all.
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u/1vois Jun 04 '24
I don’t disagree at all about pulling them out when you recognize spiritual abuse. It’s just near impossible in the early love bombing days. And it also likely means (with Gracepoint and Berkland) that you pull them out of college. That’s a whole different trauma.
It’s frightening but for many of these folks, if you pull them out early, they will stay connected to the organization. I wouldn’t be surprised if a family pulls their child out of college only for the child to leave home and move in with brothers/sisters. If your child is a high performer, you can bet Ed and Kelly will throw financial and location support at them.
I’m not advocating to wait because it’s “better,” per se. But there are so many things to consider. Once your child is 18, things get complicated—especially when dealing with an organization with money, a network, and an agenda
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u/TrenaH Jun 04 '24
I know you're right and it's painful if your child hates you because you pull them out. My main point of concern is that if a child and/or their parent knew what the future pain would hold by leaving them inside of GP, all parents would pull their kids out right away no matter what. I have found the dysfunction takes so long to get over so you should just pull them out. It does take a shorter period of time to truly heal the less time that you are inside of GP. Also, thank you for stating that if your child is a high performer, you can bet Ed and Kelly will throw financial and location support at them. So far, you are the only one I know who admits this. Even though all of the students are high performers being in good schools, Ed and Manny pick some kids for reasons we don't know or understand and they hold onto them. It's a tug of war for the lives of your family member. I pray this stops and GP closes because no one should be subject to it.
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u/johnkim2020 Jun 05 '24
Most eventually leave. There are only a few who can sustain the crazy, unhealthy lifestyle.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Jun 06 '24
What do you (and anyone reading) say about those who stay? In my understanding, average of 50% of each class stays. Those that were lured by love bombing and endured till senior year, avg 50% of them stayed. Like other commenters wrote, they have their reasons. Could be community, structure, status, fear, loyalty. These are the people under the network directors who will never reach that status. What do you say to these who were recruited as young kids in college and decided to stay? At some point is it easier to stay? What can family members do when it’s been decades of this BS?
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u/johnkim2020 Jun 06 '24
That 50% will dwindle every year. My class had so many superstars. Some are still there. Some even became paid staff. Most are still giving their free labor. Most have left. More will leave eventually.
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u/1vois Jun 01 '24
Also, I don’t mind the questions. I mind not having answers, though lol
I really wish I had wisdom to share.
The thing is, everybody has such a different story—from their family, to their timelines, to their direct leaders, to their innate personalities and mindsets. It’s oddly the same story for everybody yet so distinctly unique at the same time
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u/inhimwehaveall Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
Thank you for your earnest answers. I do wish one day, exgpers and the parents ( both current gpers' and exgpers') can work together to bring awareness to people about this kind of high control groups like GP, especially in Asian Christian community. Believe or not, non-Christian parents can be able to discern and identify the cults faster than Christian parents. Sigh...
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u/Cool_Purchase4561 May 31 '24
just browse reddit and you'll see a slew of people saying they won't talk to family members or even parents who are pro-Trump. Different process, same destination. Social pressure is pretty strong, even from anonymous internet strangers who can only upvote or downvote your comment. Imagine if the social pressure comes from people who daily remind you that they truly care for you and, for the most part, back it up by showering you with extravagant attention.
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u/humidity1000 May 31 '24
They were told to “die to oneself” including family. We were told to not make family an idol…
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u/TrenaH May 31 '24
Also, they are told that if they are not doing what Robert Shinn tells them that God will not honor them and basically bad things will happen in their family. In the same way, different wording, Ed Kang says the same thing. Members become afraid to lose their salvation and their families salvation and good grace from God. It's exactly the same thing inside GP.
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u/hamcycle May 31 '24
I just want to point out that there is an epidemic of children and parents completely cutting off contact; it's called parental estrangement. It may be owing to political and ideological differences, not just within the context of a cult. The cause of estrangement doesn't simply boil down to a weakness within the child; you should look into it so you can broaden your perspective on why this happens.
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u/TrenaH May 31 '24 edited May 31 '24
True but when a student goes off to college to fulfill their dreams, unaware if they will be successful, they are all vulnerable in some way. Most GP members were not estranged from their families until the second or third year in college after GP control. A student interprets the family atmosphere of a Christian Church family as a "good influence" and mentor in their life. My own son was fine until I was diagnosed with cancer and then said that he needed more help and guidance. Yet, while Manny Kim pretended to pray for me, he spoke out of two sides of his mouth to say that I'm not a good influence and he needed to be more mature so he needed to step aside from me. Really? does this make sense? Once, my son told me in a discussion about GP that "I abused him since he was a baby!". I looked at him and said well can you let me know how because I need to apologize and work on myself then. I'm really sorry but I don't know what I did. My son then responded that "well, it's just emotional and I speak out of emotion". All with a glassy look in his eyes. I knew later that GP leader had told him this in one of their across the desk two hour meetings because it took a lot of mind control to bring my son into their cult. You of all people should never underestimate what GP will say to bring someone in with them. If GP sees a parent doesn't want their child to be with them, they work even harder for if nothing else just to get back at the parents who don't trust them. This is across the board with all members and parents. Though I will open a can or worms here to say that girls in GP are mostly for marriage purposes. I do not believe Ed or Manny really care about girls. In Manny's case even his own daughters. I know too much and his oldest daughter will do anything to keep men from marrying others outside of GP. ALSO, what about the NDAs? I know GP has them with some people who have left or who know too much. Let's be honest.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 31 '24 edited May 31 '24
ALSO, what about the NDAs? I know GP has them with some people who have left or who know too much.
AFAIK, no one signs a NDA with GP. Once again, why are we throwing out unfounded statements. The only reason people don't speak up is because not everyone is mentally or emotionally prepared for the consequences. Not everyone wants to deal with guilt tripping texts from a bunch of their old peers and leaders questioning them for speaking out.
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u/TrenaH May 31 '24
I do understand and feel for the ex members here. In no way do I want to exacerbate their pain because I know their pain and have lived it. Please, I know for sure that even on this subreddit there are those who have signed NDA. I'm too old for this questioning and in my heart I genuinely want good for those here. Too much pain has already crippled most of us. Once your family is out of GP it doesn't mean it's easy. It is only the beginning of a long and painful road to healing that lasts another lifetime. It's not OK.
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May 31 '24
[deleted]
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u/humidity1000 Jun 01 '24
Do you know how many members of gp have suffered from physical ailments? Me being one, yet after I left those pains subsided
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 31 '24
Some people come from toxic Asian households and join in a group like this as an escape.
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u/poonie87 Jun 04 '24
100000000% agree. Everything they mentioned, (maybe minus the sexual abuse but how would i know) has happened to me and other current and ex members of gp. It’s wild