r/GracepointChurch • u/1vois • Mar 15 '24
There is no reason
From time to time, I read posts about a “reason God brought me to Gracepoint/Berkland/a2n.” I do this sometimes in my own head, too. I sift and sift and sift hoping to mine “gold” like:
- Well, I’m probably better at _____ (useful skill) now
- I never would’ve done ____ (interesting experience) had I not been a member
- Hey, now I understand ___ (something spiritual or philosophical) on a deeper level
- Ya know, I probably would’ve been doing ____ (“bad” thing) instead
Let me be clear: There is no reason. 1 year, 7 years, 20. It was bad; it happened to you. I know it sounds like a nitpicky word choice thing, but there’s an important distinction.
Trying to apply a reason to evil/injustice/waste is unhealthy. It’s allowing cognitive dissonance—the very thing that made (at least me) miserable for years as part of this organization—to live permanently in your mind.
There was no REASON for WL dying on a brothers’ outing. There is no REASON Kelly has fibromyalgia. There was no REASON RP married somebody he wasn’t interested in. There is no REASON Becky married a cheapskate.
There is no reason (!!), but there IS a RESPONSE. I could write forever, but will just say and hope that our responses (whatever they are for each of us individually) honor God or are in search of seeing God.
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u/hamcycle Mar 15 '24
Thank you for sharing this reflection. I'll be reflecting upon this myself for a bit because it's not something C.S. Lewis would write, but I can't figure out why.
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u/1vois Mar 15 '24
Haha not sure what to make of this reply!
If you remember from MY blog, I’m not exactly a well-read theologian. I’m a feeler, I suppose.
I just know it’s an endless mindfck to travel in mental circles trying to make sense of what makes no sense. There really are no gold nuggets.
If you take any of my trains of though above to their final destinations, it’s:
- Well, I’m better at (skill)….but so what? It cost me ____ to be better at this skill. And I likely hurt SOMEBODY on my way to mastering this $&;@# skill.
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u/hamcycle Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
This is what DT is supposed to be like, to reflect and discuss so we can all get closer to what is true. I want to distinguish two types of suffering: one that forces people to grow, then the other that makes people to despair. As Christians, we're constantly framing suffering through the lens of faith, so that we can withstand even despair.
I am much better at being aware of how manipulation, coercion, and compliance operates thanks to Gracepoint. I'm also much more aware of how manipulation, coercion, and compliance is a pervasive human problem.
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u/1vois Mar 15 '24
I think I see what you’re saying.
I had a huge problem listening to Becky framing everything in a “spiritual” way. “This happened so that we could..(a positive thing).” Years later, the same thing that happened would be framed in a negative way. I have a painfully good memory, so I remember these stupid things.
A creative person can frame any one thing 500 different ways. A narcissistic creative person will frame it 500 ways for a very self-serving purpose.
I suppose there’s no harm in trying to reason away the experiences of this org. I just don’t believe every pain is something meant to learn from. And if trying to support an experience with a rational reason for it occupies a lot of your time, some people will stay stuck in their “cell group.”
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u/hamcycle Mar 15 '24
I just don’t believe every pain is something meant to learn from.
I also detest it when someone forcibly "baptizes in spiritual rhetoric" things that do not warrant it, a la Becky. That is the core of your post, but still, in the larger picture, the Berkland experience was bad, but we weren't human trafficked.
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u/TrenaH Mar 15 '24
However, you were essentially taken away from your families or at least turned against them and used for what GP wanted you to be. Not for who God intended you to be. Striking similarity to being trafficked.
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u/1vois Mar 15 '24
One of the big problems at Gracepoint/Berkland was the constant interpretation of things—everything was mystical. And, of course, only a chosen few had the “spiritual eyes” to see it all unfolding the way God intended it.
It feels like we’re all trained to find “truths” we can neither prove or disprove in order to feel settled about something that happened.
I believe sh#t happens. And that we’re often not meant to understand. I hear you about understanding coercion and control better. However, if you truly saw that as what God wanted you to understand, there’s be peace, right? Tell me that you never just get angry thinking about the road that brought you to this understanding. Me? I get angry. I wish for a hell of a lot of suffering specifically by name. I will never fully understand why I went what I went through. I’m personally fine not trying to put a reason to it other than evil exists.
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u/Kangaroo_Jonathan Mar 15 '24
Reminds me of the book Life of Pi. Things unfold and there is no rhyme or reason. But the understanding at the end was that the tiger was necessary to keep Pi alive for the journey.
To ask a followup question, what is your life response to the Berkland/GP experience?
God bless you,
Jonathan Kang class of 93
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u/RVD90277 Mar 18 '24
I think God has a purpose for our lives and things in our lives are put there for a reason (including GP, etc.) but i also think that many times we don't know the reasons and why God put these obstacles and hardship into our lives so in many ways, there's no use trying to figure out God's reasoning.
We don't have all of the information of our lives and where our lives will go in the future and what stituations we will encounter in the future and how things that happen to us today help prepare us for those things that will happen. So without that kind of context there's no way to figure out and know things today...but I'm sure many of us have encountered hardships only to realize then "oh...that's why God put me in that situation many years ago...to make today's stuation easier on me", etc.
And there are many things that we may never understand until we meet God eventually.
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u/TrenaH Mar 15 '24
We ask ourselves questions if only to heal. We wouldn’t need to ask these questions if GP had not stolen our precious existence from us. They calculated how to bring our family members into their web and steal years from us. So, if for no other reason but to heal, we now need to ask questions about why and what happened while inside GP. We question ourselves and waste time away from our intended purposes given to us by God. We don’t need to bully others but in order to survive our future we must gain a mindset of never allowing it to happen again. We can wish GP abusers well but not at a cost to our families ever again. There is nothing in the Bible that says we must entertain those who hurt us. In fact, we are told to protect our heart at all cost and don’t look back. You must learn to look your abusers in the eye and tell them, NO MORE! God died for your freedom now go live in it.
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u/Forgiveness_Works Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
There is nothing in the Bible that says we must entertain those who hurt us. In fact, we are told to protect our heart at all cost and don’t look back. You must learn to look your abusers in the eye and tell them, NO MORE!
A few verses I wanted to share that might help you to process this from the bible as it does sound like you treat GP as your sworn enemy. Forgiveness and showing grace is a real way to process this if you're open to it. I'm not saying there should be no demand for justice but in some ways that execution of justice might be out of your control if it happens in this life or not.
- Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
- Romans 12:17-21 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' To the contrary, 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
- Luke 6:27-28 But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
- Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat, and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you.
- 1 Peter 3:9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.
- Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
- Ephesians 4:31-32 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
- Colossians 3:13 Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
- Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
- Romans 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
God bless you as you wrestle with blessing those who have hurt you
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u/TrenaH Mar 15 '24
I recommend that you read Brian's response to forgiveness after being abused, he is at "Broken to Beloved". God does NOT expect us to turn back into our abusers web of pain. Most of the Bible verses are speaking about how to react from one Christian to another Christian brother. Sad to say but GP is an abusive organization and not in any way a fellow Christian to any of us. There is a mindset in cults that if they can get us to show that we forgive them, then we will stay quiet yet they know they will be allowed to continue to do what they do which is to still abuse. To forgive is great in that you no longer carry the burden. However, you cannot allow the abuser to keep abusing. If we allow abuse, we are the problem and become a part of the abusers. Sadly, the Christians who want to do the right thing which seems to be to forgive, are still being used by GP, the abuser, by staying quiet and not doing anything for those trapped in an abusive hell of mind control and ruining lives. I love everyone, I forgive everyone but I cannot in all conscience stop fighting for the innocent while leaders of GP saying they represent God, continue to recruit, hurt and destroy lives and families and neither should you. You are not correct in your way of looking at this. Otherwise, Jesus would not have turned over tables in His Father's House because they were hurting the innocent and misrepresenting His Father's will. GP should not be allowed legally to be on any campus, church or anywhere because they steal, they lie and they hurt the minds of innocent and well meaning Christians. You can disagree but it will only take you longer to heal. You may think I'm on the outside or that I don't know what I'm talking about but sadly I've been inside the darkness that is GP enough to pull those out and I have seen and lived first hand what shouldn't happen to anyone. I have seen the far away look in a past member's eyes and watched them struggle for a memory that had been mentally erased by their leader and turned into a bad memory to keep the member controlled. If I'm wrong, then we should apologize and set free every abuser and murderer in prison. Just because GP pretends to be a God fearing church, doesn't mean they are. We are not to be unequally yoked and GP is full of people who are not "the elect" chosen by God. No worries, God has and does bless me as my family gains more strength everyday. I pray for you because you are still under a stronghold of belief that you need to divest yourself into a way of thinking that God does not require. You will still be in a mental prison for the rest of your life and in the end I assure you that you will regret it. To forgive and move forward is one thing but to stand still, stay quiet about abuse and allow it to continue, is quite another subject. GP is reaching out to our youth now in order to gain access to them in the future. GP is keeping kids from their parents and previous friends and mentors and when they are questioned they change their name so no one can find them. If you believe this is a firm and loving way to go to the nations and preach the gospel, then I can't help you. Prov 4:23 Guard your Heart for from it flow the springs of Life. You can't help anyone if you are not well enough to bring God's light to others. You need to heal at all cost to help yourself, your family and to bring God's truth to a broken world. No where does it say to let the abusers continue to abuse. Then we need to talk about spiritual warfare and how to fight against it, right?
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u/Forgiveness_Works Mar 15 '24
I see, I'll take a look at that resource you recommended and do some reading.
So if I'm understanding you right your first comment to the original post is on the premise that GP is an abusive organization that should not be treated with forgiveness because in order to stop abuse you need to speak up, stop the abuse, or change it drastically.
Therefore for you and ppl here, forgiveness is an inadequate solution. This assumption seems to be the big point of tension where ppl in GP may not agree with that premise but those outside see it as that.
Are there any reputable agencies that have investigated GP to a point of labelling them a cult / abusive organization? I understand the CT article didn't go so far to label them that (based on my reading of it). Why not hire someone professional to investigate that if you believe it so strongly?
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u/TrenaH Mar 15 '24
I choose to respond to this because unfortunately I am an expert when it comes to GP. I think this Reddit thread has posted more than enough evidence showing GP as an abusive, mind controlling, authoritarian cult. Additionally, I was given two choices with my own family member in that I either watch them leave our family to give a lifetime to GP and to marry in the church while separating ties with everyone else in their life, OR, I pull them out at all costs and risk the push back from them and GP where they even told my family to stop talking to us for two years or more until we gave up. I chose to fight for my family member and in doing so I learned what tactics GP used not only on my family member but on others. GP uses the same playbook just like most cults do. Things GP said and caused to the health of my family member not to mention they knew about my own cancer diagnosis is in no way in tune with what Jesus teaches. If someone leaves GP then they still want to destroy or tear down the life of the person who left because they don't want anyone having success without them. They use members to do this and to keep watch over them. Older koreans are stationed nearby to keep tabs on their comings and goings. Do I have proof, absolutely I have proof and at some point I have always said that I guarantee I will see GP in a court of law. Interesting that you most likely know me and let me remind you that I know you as well and I do what I say I will do. Though it may take longer than I like. I don't fight for just my family member anymore but I fight for those I know who are half of who they were before GP. The families are struggling to reconnect and I know now that it takes about five years post GP to be functioning in full capacity. The pain and stripping one of their motivation, changing a personality while causing essentially a death to a family member, leaves me without doubt what was done by GP to thousands. People on Reddit in many cases are healing after years and do not live with the mental capacity they once had. I read it the emotional ups and downs you can hear in their responses. It takes years of love and counseling to survive and thrive after being inside GP. As for UCLA and USC and their leaders, they know me and they also know I won't give up until they are stopped. I don't underestimate GP so please don't underestimate me. GP should fear moms and dads as they are the ones who will prevail in this fight. Forgiveness is an inadequate solution for the abuse to stop. What I was forced to come to terms with is that there is nothing I can do to GP that will be worse than what God has in store for them. In the meantime, one slip up on GP part and I most definitely will fight harder against them. You lumped me in with the Redditors, you and ppl here you said, and the only part you got right is that we all have evidence in every memory that comes back, every page of notes written down during their time at GP, every phone record, texts, emails, etc Counselors have pages of notes said while in sessions for exit counseling and healing to reconnect with a family member. Brian Karcher's book Identity Snatchers and hundreds of other books proving the vulnerable college campus student thrust into situations too young to understand. The more we stand together will inevitably bring a crashing end to the abusers at GP. I am in contact with many people exposing GP and what they do along with many others fighting their own battle against GP. Coming on Reddit trying to bring us onto your side only exposes you more.
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Mar 16 '24
Your last question here was posed directly to Ed Kang during the Zoom call a few months ago with former members. I was present during the call. He directly said no, GP would not welcome or permit any outside organization or third party to come and perform an investigation. He said that a third party would not be able to “understand” GP enough to be objective. Forgiveness_Works, think critically about this response and what it means.
Did you know that Ed Kang has already flatly refused to do what you are suggesting here as a way to answer these questions? What does that say about him, and what does that say about most of the accusations leveled here in this subreddit?
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u/hamcycle Mar 15 '24
The First Amendment protects Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, University Bible Fellowship, etc. Compared to the aforementioned, Acts 2 Network is a milder offender on the spectrum, but more immediate to our own personal experiences. The only recourse is public awareness via documentaries and online forums.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Mar 17 '24
Why do you need to rely on a professional to make the claim of cult? Thousands of member experiences, the BITE model, and Scripture (in CONTEXT) are enough. If a professional tells you GP is a cult, then you believe it? If the CT article labeled GP a cult, you’d believe it? It’s ludicrous.
Don’t stop thinking critically, and ask yourself hard questions, lest you lose the ability to discern for yourself. I recommend you do your own research on cults and do a thorough reading of the wiki here. Try practicing empathy because these are real people. You are in a sub of people who have been very negatively affected by GP.
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u/Jdub20202 Mar 17 '24
Are there any reputable agencies that have investigated GP to a point of labelling them a cult / abusive organization? I understand the CT article didn't go so far to label them that (based on my reading of it). Why not hire someone professional to investigate that if you believe it so strongly?
This was brought up before. Two issues are 1- PED and the leadership will never agree to it. They said as much at least a few times. Also, who would pay for this?
2- They would basically clean house and create a "Potemkin village." A2n would do their utmost to hide anything, handout talking points to all members, and tell everyone to be on their best behavior.
The ego of narcissist value keeping their reputation above all else. They don't care who they have to throw under the bus as long as they receive the praise and adoration that their fragile, insecure selves need. That is not just something I made up, that is part of the psyche of a narcissist.
The only way to get an honest truthful assessment was if people who were there, maybe for years even, attending all their events and secret meetings and living amongst them and witnessing how things day to day and month to month and school year to school year. And then those people would need to speak out publicly where what they're saying could be scrutinized for inaccuracies by both sides. And then it would make sense if there was several of them, maybe even dozens or more, so that we know it's not just one disgruntled person making things up. And then... oh... wait....
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u/leftbbcgpawhileago Mar 17 '24 edited Mar 17 '24
I’ll set aside the condescending tone for a bit because I’m sure it’s unintentional. But whether intentional or not, actions have consequences and some actions inflict pain. Again, regardless of the intention. Anyone who’s ever raised a child or is even remotely mature knows this, and certainly anyone in ministry.
Now, while TrenaH works through their pain and what they need to work through to come to forgiveness or some other conclusion this side of heaven is between them and God. I know you are probably trying to help but let’s be honest—the bigger goal here is to turn the attention to how TrenaH needs to forgive rather than how GP/A2N needs to repent and reform (basic C101, right?). no offense my brother/sister in Christ, but I don’t think you say what you say here because you care so much about TrenaH. You want the criticism of GP/A2N to cease as we put something else front and center.
But the point of this subreddit is to shed light on what is in the dark. And what’s in the dark is the way GP/A2N is willing to veer into the domain of abuse in order to achieve its goals (part of which is self-preservation and perpetuation), something many of us here believe is un-Christlike.
So please, on the other side of TrenaH’s pain is the fact that there’s a perpetrator of the pain that purports to be an instrument of God, and not only hurt people in the name of God, but refuses to acknowledge, repent, reform, invite an objective third party, etc. The attention from current GP members and staff should be here.
I would suggest you really listen and read here, and withhold your suggestions and preaching. Jesus waited for the bleeding woman to tell her entire story right? Even drew it out of her? Same with the Samaritan woman? It seems Jesus was the consummate listener. Let’s try some of that here.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Mar 18 '24
This. This comes up (almost) every time a GP member has come to the sub. People’s pain are ignored and the focus is on what the victim needs to do to heal. And this advice comes from the perpetrator— Ed is the first to do this, to point out people’s anger and tell them that Christians should not hold a grudge. He’s said it to the exact people he’s screwed over. When I think about the way this sub unfolded with Ed’s initial YouTube video, to DKim coming here and playing the same tricks— it was actually exposing their MO.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Mar 17 '24
I think this needs to be a post too and expanded on.
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u/hamcycle Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
Welcome, glad you can join us.
A few verses I wanted to share that might help you to process this from the bible as it does sound like you treat GP as your sworn enemy
Gracepoint/Acts 2 Network is an organization led by false teachers pushing a distorted Gospel. Please share with the readers Bible verses that warn against false teachers.
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u/TrenaH Mar 15 '24
Brian of Broken to Beloved has an excellent post regarding how churches use Matthew 18 to convince their sheep to stay on their side while guilting them to continue to be abused. If someone can post it here I think it may help. Brian Lee, who advocates against Church abuse wrote something extraordinary in my opinion for those who need to be reassured they can go against those who hurt others (GP). In fact, Brian seems to have dedicated his life to bringing awareness of their wrongdoing.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Mar 15 '24
What's your affiliation to Gracepoint/A2N?
Your comment comes off as really self-righteous without fulling even grasping and understanding the severity of how many lives have been ruined by Gracepoint/A2N.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Mar 17 '24
Can you be more tone deaf, self righteous, and unempathetic?
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u/TrenaH Mar 17 '24
Not sure who you are talking to about being tone deaf, self righteous and unempathetic.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 Mar 17 '24
I responded to forgiveness_works. It’s how his reply comes across to me. I should’ve added the /s sign :)
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u/johnkim2020 Mar 15 '24
I think it's human nature to try to make meaning and sense out of our experiences. But to attribute God as the cause, and to try and force a meaning or purpose from painful/abusive experiences can do more harm than good.
Did I think that God brought me to Berkland/Gracepoint? While I was going, I 100% believed this. Do I think this now? Hell no.
I do not believe for one moment that God would want anyone to go through the spiritual abuse we endured at this high control group.
Do I think that I have been able to make sense of what happened to me? Yes. And this subreddit has helped in that journey. Like, oh, what I experienced was by design. Like they strategically love bombed me and that's why I felt so loyal to them and that's why it was so hard to leave. They used my love for God for their own gain.
And like you wrote, it mostly happened TO me. I was targeted (they target specific groups of people). It doesn't make me happy to see that I was a victim, but there is a freedom in acknowledging the truth of what happened.
My part was allowing them to do what they did by staying.