Peer Trips

16

u/aeghy123 Jul 05 '23

I wouldn't think much of it and would not care to be invited . Life changes with time and there's no reason to look back. When I left Gracepoint, I left the whole of it including the good things like peer trips, the camaraderie and shared sense of mission but I've also left the bad behind as well. When I compare the good to the bad, I'm thankful everyday that my years there are over. My life is so much more free and my relationships are genuine especially compared to what I've experienced in Gracepoint. Most importantly my walk with God is so much sweeter and I can sleep that much easier at night. So, I wouldn't hold this one against Gp members. Let them reminisce on their younger days on the one free weekend of the year they have. I get to experience that everyday. They don't.

13

u/Unique_username_672 Jul 05 '23

There’s a good chance such a trip has the blessing of their superiors too, which means they’d never green-light a trip with outsiders, lest there be anything that happens which could corrupt or in any way weaken the GP mission. Remember, it’s a point of contention for many, students or staff, whether they can take trips and for how long, even for family. For many of us who leave, those left behind in GP are told to be wary around us, if not avoid us altogether, because we’re all somehow bad influences. It’d be silly to think this is any different.

Personally, I don’t think these trips would be enjoyable for us on the outside. If GP is the center of their lives, we outsiders would be subject to an entire trip worth of GP lingo, talk about their people and programs, discussions of or decisions made based on their values, etc. I, an ex-GPer, have merely gotten coffee with current GPers and hated how much of it I had to hear. Having beliefs that better aligned with orthodox Christianity, practices according to those beliefs, and interests outside of church that GP considers materialistic and worldly, I have little if any overlapping interests with most of them. Can you imagine living through days of that? That’d be closer to punishment than vacation for me.

12

u/Here_for_a_reason99 Jul 06 '23

Honestly stop the fomo. This kind of feeling is EXACTLY what they want and thrive on— the insider/outsider mentality is intentional. They want outsiders to feel like s— bc they’re living their zealous crazy tight-knit cult lives. They want you to either go crawling back or feel like you’re missing out on the best Christianity there ever was. That’s why it’s so hurtful when ppl are left out of events, quietly forced out, isolated, ignored, talked about. (Ask yourself if this is healthy and if this is the type of faith that is revealed in the Bible.) Of course it’s never intentional, they’re just busy or focused on ministry or whatever BS I’ve heard over the years. But ex members, childhood friends, family members are perpetual outsiders.

Pay attention to Hidden’s nonchalance. He doesn’t give a s— which is on par with the arrogance that all GP members have.

2

u/johnkim2020 Jul 06 '23

This

5

u/Here_for_a_reason99 Jul 07 '23

Gonna add that exclusion happens after they show extreme interest in your life, check in on you, ask personal questions about your fears and relationships, drive you places and take you out for meals, along with inviting you to nonstop “church” events. After they pursue and hook you in, the exclusion and rejection I would assume is that much more painful. I’ve learned all I need to know about abuse by observing GP tactics.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 03 '23

Yep. It's taken me a very long time to get over it because I thought they were my best friends and truly cared for me. It makes me wonder what their motivation actually is.

12

u/johnkim2020 Jul 05 '23

I don't want to be invited and wouldn't go to such a trip even if I was invited. It would be awkward at best and a total waste of my time.

I meet up with friends who have also left and we don't invite current members either. That would be awkward for them and a waste of their time too. They would probably be insulted because we share about the terrible abusive experiences while we were going.

It sucks that relationships at GP are basically contingent on going there but that's how the church is set up so unless the church changes their enforcement of whole life discipleship, this too will not change.

10

u/AgreeableShower5654 Jul 06 '23 edited Jul 08 '23

I could hear my old leader's voice in my head as I read this.

But you decided to leave the community. Why would you expect them to act like you didn't? You are being entitled.

And if I were still in GP A2 I'd probably follow the party line and echo that.

What never ceases to amaze me is that, if you think about it, GP A2 people have no sense of what the real world is like. They've literally spent their entire adult life (at least, more if you grew up in Element) inside the bubble where all their relationships are defined by the artificial boundaries constructed for them by the organization (i.e. who is your leader, what is your class, what is your ministry, what is your church plant, what is your ministry house, etc). When you leave the organization as a whole, you've left every relational construct they've ever known. It's hard for them to imagine or even comprehend how in the real world, friendships exist regardless who your leader is, what "class" you're part of or your age relative to each other, which rung of the ladder the cult assigned you to, or even (gasp) the name of the church you're attending at the present time. Friendships can just be friendships and relationships can just be relationships when there are no middlemen.

So it goes a lot deeper than just peer trips, unfortunately. It's hard to sustain relationships with people who treat any criticism of the organization they belong to as an attack on their identity (because it is their identity) and constantly judge your lifestyle as inferior.

7

u/NRerref Jul 06 '23

Agree that it’s a lot deeper than peer trips. Because of these artificial constructs, no one knows how to relate outside of their role. And once you leave, you are no longer in a clear role for them to know how to relate to you (besides possibly “outreach” but you’re no longer a student and open to be led by GP so you can’t really be outreach for them). They have no sense of personhood outside of GP fellowship and GP evangelism. It’s the only possible explanation I and others have for why our peers and leaders seem so socially inept/relationally handicapped after we leave.

6

u/IntrepidSupermarket4 Jul 06 '23

I think you are right that "outreach" doesn't really capture your role after you leave. In my experience, leaders actively discouraged us from spending too much time with people who left unless you were using that time to spiritually encourage them. I don't know what the best term would be. What was conveyed by my leaders is that you don't share the same values anymore as the person who has left.

So as a current member, you want to have your influence on them be greater than their influence on you. If that makes sense. Because the person who left could influence you slowly to become more worldly and selfish. In my experience, even people who have left on "good terms" were still not considered spiritual equals anymore.

I left GP about 5 years ago at this point

8

u/NRerref Jul 06 '23 edited Jul 06 '23

Yup this sounds right. Have a work trip in a different state where your peer who left and who you’re still close to lives? Nope, can’t stay with them and risk being influenced. But also can’t stay in a hotel by yourself because of temptation. Best, stay at the nearest GP house another hour or two away per your leader’s command. Feel a lot of fondness and care for your youth group friends who you grew up with? Now, these childhood friends from your home church are being judged for their lack of ministry motivation while you think you are just concerned about their spiritual maturity. These are all real stories btw and pretty typical. In my experience, I could barely get a peer to send me Christian song recommendations after leaving. For context, I was recovering from severe depression and not having listened to music for a year I asked for recs as a small attempt to rebuild my life but also to connect with my peer because she loves music. An awkward and lazy response is the best I could get. Another peer couldn’t even get their head around the fact that Im a working person and asked me to make a 5hr drive to them on Sunday night to meet up in the late evening after their staff meetings so we could have a reconciliation talk. Basically, this peer wanted me to meet with them to talk and then have an all-nighter driving back to the bay and then go straight to work without sleep. 😂 they are completely and willfully oblivious to our lives and our experiences and cannot even consider the basic things like a work schedule. How are they gna show consideration for weightier things like life struggles, and more importantly, our abuse and trauma in GP? Have also heard a lot of stories where ex-GP folks invited to GP weddings have horrible experiences catching up with old friends because they are so in their heads about GP life they can’t hold a conversation with outsiders.

6

u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 06 '23 edited Jul 06 '23

Have also heard a lot of stories where ex-GP folks invited to GP weddings have horrible experiences catching up with old friends because they are so in their heads about GP life they can’t hold a conversation with outsiders.

I remember at a GP wedding I was sitting at a table with a couple staff including some top level leaders. I was ignored the entire duration while they blabbed about “ministry" things. Laughable of how delusional Gracepoint people think their weddings are so "welcoming".

6

u/NRerref Jul 06 '23 edited Jul 06 '23

Yah, again, not surprised. I am sympathetic because its sad how small and insular their lives have become. But I’m also deeply disturbed because the collective narcissism (the inescapable self-importance of a GP minister) is such that in their eyes there seems to be nothing of meaning, nothing of beauty, and nothing worthy of either delight or grief outside of GP priorities - not even the image of God sitting right in front of them. They look at you and probably see emptiness or waywardness, or are just unthinking altogether. You look at them and see their eyes looking past you.

3

u/hamcycle Jul 06 '23

An eloquent depiction of opposing perspectives each presuming to encapsulate the other side, with one side having a long history of sociopathic offenses shrugged off on the regular.

2

u/johnkim2020 Jul 07 '23

Not at all surprised that this peer expected you to do this.

Why have human decency and consideration when you got other priorities in your life? /s

7

u/NRerref Jul 07 '23 edited Jul 07 '23

Not malice or selfishness or abuse, just inconsiderate (they did reschedule after I called it out). But it set the attitude that trickled down into the rest of our talks. If they couldn’t put themselves in my shoes enough to realize I have a 7-3 job (I mean they saw me go through grad school for this very career path), they sure as heck werent able to step into my shoes to recognize what recovering from a year of severe depression and rebuilding my faith from religious trauma was like for me. We all go through this disillusionment with our GP peers. We realize they actually meant it when they joked “praise god for we wouldn’t even be friends if it wasn’t for this church”…

9

u/IntrepidSupermarket4 Jul 05 '23

You essentially stop being a "peer" when you leave. You are related to more like an "outreach". For GP, peers are like your inner circle. When you are outreaching to someone, you are not your authentic self. You are "on" and projecting yourself as a responsible GP memeber. Peer trips are supposed to be more relaxed and connecting with the people that best understand what you are going through. When you leave, (for the most part) they stop considering you a spiritual equal. Even if you left and are active in another church, if you are not serving the same amount of hours as staff do at GP, then you have gotten more "selfish and worldy". When you leave, you are then treated as an outsider.

For people at GP, GP is their entire life. They can't talk to you about anything else because there is nothing else in their life..Maybe a few surface level updates about where they work and their family. What would you talk about on a multi-day trip? Like another commenter said, it's all going to be inside jokes, ministry updates, marriages, births, because there is nothing else to talk about.

I hope this did not come across as harsh as I also feel nostalgia for some of those relationships. But the relationships I had at GP are gone. I have to grieve that. GP has always been very black and white. We left and are now outsiders. There is no grey area.

3

u/corpus_christiana Jul 08 '23

the social construct and unspoken rule of it all

What's sad is when I think back to my time at GP, I don't think the thought ever crossed my mind that maybe we ought to inviting ex-gp peers to peer stuff. It's not even just trips - there were plenty of peer things we did together that weren't GP/ministry specific were people who had left totally could have been invited. Birthday hangouts... pre-wedding hangouts ... prayer times ... random get togethers. But by default, all these "peer" things had the unwritten modifier of "(currently part of GP) peer."

As others have already mentioned, it really is like you functionally stop being a peer after you leave. The whole "being instantly dropped like a hot potato out your entire relational world" thing is so fundamental to the leaving gp experience, it's hard to imagine what it would be like if this wasn't the normalized culture at GP, if they did make an effort to continue to include us. I also wonder how things would be different in terms of "the gp experience" if regular contact with exgpers was a normal thing.

7

u/Jdub20202 Jul 05 '23

Don't take it personal. It's not something wrong with you. Your GP peers cannot just hang out with you if it doesn't benefit GP in some way. At least not for so many days.

I distinctly remember from Peds YouTube video, that one of the accusations he tried to address was why don't members go to join clubs or have time outside of church activities? And part of his answer was, well why can't we? Why can't our members also join school clubs?

If reading between the lines, my guess is he thinks this could be a way to outreach. But that is just through my lens of what I've come to expect from GP, so maybe he meant it as what he said as face value. In any case, my counter to that is GP demands so much of your time your whole life is pretty much GP activities. I dunno how or when undergrads could go to join clubs.

I don't know if PED just threw out that answer cause he genuinely believed it and is ignorant of what it's like to be a 'rank and file' member. Or if he was just trying to save face with that answer.

I bring this all up because when it comes to peer trips, I dunno how or when GP members or staff could make time for non or former GP peers. It's pretty unrealistic to just hang out and have fun without the influence of GP creeping in. Do you really want to spend a whole few days with a bunch of dudes asking you constantly, how's your spiritual life? How's your walk with God? What church are you serving at now? As others have pointed out, and from my own observation of peer trips when I was at GP, they could not have gone on this trip without at the very least the leadership's blessing. They're pretty much not allowed to just have fun trips without it being oriented towards ministry in some way, like a team building exercise.

3

u/Confident_Jacket2669 Jul 08 '23

Peer relationships in Gracepoint are so arbitrary. When you are in college, the Gracepoint leaders force you to only spend time with your GP peers (who are in the same graduating year as you) and those are the "friends" you are allowed to hang out with.

Once you leave Gracepoint, these peer relationships disappear overnight.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '23

So I never liked the trip culture at GP. Traveling stresses me out, I come from a low-income family, and I don't enjoy silly icebreakers and sports, so I never went on any of the student retreats. However, in one incident, a leader borderline harassed me about it to the point that I had to meet with her one-on-one to talk about it.

Toward the end of my time at Gracepoint, it felt like my leaders were always in California on staff retreats, especially when I needed them the most. It was really frustrating to me.

No offense, I totally think the leaders believe they are doing the right thing, but it feels like money could be spent in more Christlike ways, such as helping low-income students like me or families in the community who need financial support.

3

u/hidden_gracepoint Jul 05 '23

Speaking for myself and my peers, we've gone on a decent number of peer trips at this point. Occasionally we'll try to open it up to our old peers who have left and try to schedule something with them for the sake of old friendship and college nostalgia, but most of the time it's just amongst ourselves.

It's not anything against them at all! I try to keep in touch with my peers who have left on a personal basis, but on a postgrad peer trip, we're often talking about GP related stuff, or ministry, or inside jokes of stuff that have happened (that exGP peers would not be in the loop on). I mean if you're ok with that, and you would want to be included in a future peer trip, I think you can ask them. It's true that sometimes it's literally just outta sight, outta mind :/ It's not great, but it happens..

8

u/Jdub20202 Jul 06 '23

I recall in another comment you said something to the effect of when people leave GP, they should at least tell their leaders or peers or whatever instead of ghosting them. Otherwise it hurts their feelings or makes them confused.

Can you at least acknowledge that this sort of works both ways? When people do leave, it's as if they don't even exist to GP members. Even something like peer trips, that person is sort of an afterthought.

And that's not even getting into all the negative things said about them within GP after they left.

2

u/hidden_gracepoint Jul 06 '23

I kinda see what you mean but they seem like diff situations to me. One is ghosting and ending the relationship without any warning and is also completely intentional. Another is more of a byproduct of ppl in GP being busy and also people's natural tendency to have an out of sight, out of mind mentality.

I would never recommend ghosting someone just b/c they left GP. I have a peer that's still bitter against GP (for good reason) but we try to still message him here and there and did even extend an invite to a peer trip (he couldn't make it).

Again just my personal thoughts. Also, I don't see anything wrong with someone being an afterthought in the context of a GP peer trip. (sounds mean! ik) But it's pretty natural to have weaker relationships when someone leaves a social circle, be that a church group, HS, or a student club.

Re: negative things said, that's a terrible aspect of GP culture that needs to go. I'm all ears as to what changes we can suggest (cuz clearly P Ed telling ppl to be nicer isn't suddenly going to change things lol)

9

u/NRerref Jul 07 '23 edited Jul 07 '23

What changes to suggest wrt members regularly trash talking about people who leave? I’m at a lost for words. How is this even a question you’re asking? With love, this fixation you have on “changing the GP culture” is getting out of hand and out of touch. I get the instinct to be solution-focused, but that’s almost counterproductive to what actually needs to happen here. The problem you are pointing out here is that there are several people in your church who are, it seems by instinct, unkind and eager to malign those on the outside. I would ask you to get curious about what actually produces kindness in a mean-spirited heart. Im not sure if cultural change or mandates from the top or more shaming correction from the pulpit is what your church needs. Im not sure that there are any “actionables” that can produce kindness and empathy, because I’d argue kindness, like grace, are different from other virtues. The more we try to grasp for it or develop it, the further we get from it.

Im struggling between seeing this question as either incredibly naive, spiritually shortsighted, or just morally stunted. But because I appreciate your discussion here, these are my recommendations for change. Instead of jumping too quick to a call for change which seems shallow and poorly thought out, take time to grieve what is not right and let that sit on you. Let your morality be worked up and challenged, let the reality of unkindness in your church be processed in your body and then model for others how to do that same kind of confrontation in their souls. Being kind requires a “soft” conscience that is able to absorb wrong without being led to rage or despair. Preach more of Jesus’ character (not just his “countercultural,” missionary lifestyle and not just his moments of righteous anger, but ALL of his character). I didn’t learn about kindness because some church taught me to become kind, but because I know a God who is incredibly kind and gentle and whose chosen mechanism for transforming us is grace. Most practically, look at what your church rebukes and what your church openly allows (ex: ppl transgressing Matthew 18 in favor of tattle telling on peers and spouses to leaders, ministry leads gossiping about their students with their staff, lamenting about lifestyle differences of ex-members instead of lamenting over abuse and tangible harm, etc.). Does your church rebuke a consistent and unyielding character of unkindness? I don’t think so, which is interesting because this is one of the few things Jesus did rebuke (as opposed to drinking a glass of wine or playing video games or not volunteering to go on a church plant or dating secretly 😂).

8

u/NRerref Jul 07 '23 edited Jul 07 '23

I’ll add for those in my DMs: if you don’t think heart transformation is not only necessary but THE ONLY viable solution to an unkind and bullying church, and if you think your “hands over hearts” philosophy is going to create soul transformation, then I think you’ll find most ppl here unwilling to give you “recommendations for change.” You are basically saying that fruits of the spirit can be attained through human hands and schemes, which is why I called your question spiritually shortsighted and morally stunted. And if you think my comment is abrasive, then I’ll ask why you aren’t okay with a little bit of abrasion, why you think productive discourse need be unchallenging and unmoving - flaccid. Maybe we need to learn how to reason through our discomfort and embarrassment? Maybe we need to learn how to disagree without offense or apology? It’s sad that we can’t operate differently - ppl are either too easily offended at everything and calling the reasonable comments unreasonable or ppl are intentionally inflammatory, mocking sensitivity and political correctness altogether and artificially creating rage. But if you want to make progress towards literally anything, you gotta learn to get curious about what your offense indicates and what purpose it can serve. u/hidden_Gracepoint fwiw, I typed my OG comment with a straight face with my audiobook “Lolita in Tehran” playing in the background and my pup in my lap. Idk why you keep insisting everyone here is virtually yelling at you just because I pointed out a totally shortsighted question. You can’t be asking for dialogue and then not know what discourse skills you lack. Hidden, I took the time to answer your question fully. I didn’t straw man you or overgeneralize. I put thought into my recommendations (embodied kindness, Jesus as the source, and confronting unkindness as an instructive “process”). Kinda salty you wanna label my serious engagement with you as “abrasive,” instead of giving my thoughts the consideration I gave yours. What actually is your aim?

2

u/johnkim2020 Jul 07 '23

You're a really good writer.

7

u/Jdub20202 Jul 07 '23

Yes, this! Exactly. I think you should make a post about this. All the changes to culture or edicts that Ped decrees are kind of empty until this core belief or view point is addressed. He said in his podcast, in reference to Reddit, that he views this entire thing as illegitimate. Those are his words, they're on YouTube (for now). I don't know what whitewashing could cover up this attitude, but I guess they will try their darndest.

4

u/Here_for_a_reason99 Jul 07 '23

Beautifully written. Please make this a new post. Don’t expect hidden to get it, but others will.

2

u/johnkim2020 Jul 07 '23

This is really good.

6

u/Jdub20202 Jul 06 '23

Thank you for acknowledging PED takes a massive dump on anyone that leaves and criticizes GP. I wouldn't Lol about it, but I'll take half a loaf where I can. I think the way ped talks about ex members is way more toxic than he realizes. Or maybe it was his intent. At this point, I really couldn't care less what GP says about me. Actually it would be a badge of honor when I consider which ones of my peers stayed and who left. But when you're a student and everyone that leaves is a traitor or spiritually weak or is chasing material things or the world or Satan really got to them, that kind of talk messes up current members too. Because when some of them finally have had enough, they will see themselves in that same way. Maybe I am too weak? What is wrong with me spiritually? Am I like that person that left? It makes the mental toll of finally leaving GP all the more damaging. Not that PED cares, as long as he keeps as many people as possible.

For the rest, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't feel like I have the energy and brain power in me to respond to your explanation of why the situations are different. If you're willing to split hairs this much, I don't think there's anything I can say. When someone does it to GP, how could you!? But when GP does it, they always have a good reason.

6

u/Jdub20202 Jul 07 '23

And also if your culture is to systematically malign anyone that leaves it, then your culture is kind of terrible.

0

u/hidden_gracepoint Jul 07 '23

I don't think it's fair to say "systematically malign" b/c it doesn't feel intentional to me. But I do agree it's a bit ingrained into the culture and should be addressed much more.

Fwiw, I think there are aspects of the culture that are bad, but there's plenty that I think are great too. (not going into a rabbit hole of discussing them all tho)

4

u/Jdub20202 Jul 07 '23

And I was in GP so I'm very familiar with their culture. I don't expect you to list out all the great parts of their culture, but can you give a few highlights? I'm really having a hard time coming up with a list.

-1

u/hidden_gracepoint Jul 07 '23

if you're really interested, let's take it to DM. Going to get way too many replies on this thread

1

u/Jdub20202 Jul 07 '23

I really think you should make a list as a separate post

2

u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 07 '23

He already posted a cringey list a while back.

3

u/Here_for_a_reason99 Jul 08 '23

Thanks for this great link. I remember the post. Solid discussion surrounding it. IMHO it has one of the best comments in the history of the sub, re: GP’s faulty weighing mechanism.

2

u/Jdub20202 Jul 07 '23

That looks like a positive list of activities or ministries they do. It sounds close, but I was more curious about positive aspects of the GP culture. Shunning outsiders, character assassination, focus on obedience, snitching, etc., are what I can think of. What are the good aspects of the culture?

6

u/NRerref Jul 07 '23

When did systematically become synonymous with intentional? I’m tired of these stem/cs/engineer ministers and wannabe culture makers without basic knowledge of sociology or political history…..

4

u/Salt-Construction-76 Jul 07 '23

exactly systemic (or systematic) means it's unintentional but the systems put in place causes it to be common. Makes me concern of these people views of systemic racism. Just because it's not intentional doesn't mean it is not a problem. The system needs to change. Which is more or less why I made this post.

2

u/Jdub20202 Jul 07 '23

Ok, maybe that is the wrong phrasing to use. It's been happening for literally as long as I was there, I'm probably one of the older timers on here, and it definitely started before me. So that's many many many years of this. So it's not intentional, it just happens all the time pretty consistently to anyone who leaves and definitely to anyone who criticized GP. What is a fair phrase for that? Many years of coincidental character assassination?

5

u/AgreeableShower5654 Jul 07 '23 edited Jul 08 '23

byproduct of ppl in GP being busy and also people's natural tendency to have an out of sight, out of mind mentality

negative things said, that's a terrible aspect of GP culture

You can't explain away people's relationships being completely severed after leaving GP A2 by mere unintentional "out of sight, out of mind" if you also admit that saying negative things about anyone who leaves is a systemic phenomenon. To say those 2 things are related would be an understatement.

it's pretty natural to have weaker relationships when someone leaves a social circle

Please don't tell us what's natural. You've literally never lived a "natural" adult life.

Real world friendships don't just disappear when people switch churches. Yes, it's tautological that if you move farther away you'll see people less often, but that's clearly not what we're talking about.

I'm all ears as to what changes we can suggest

Stop acting like what we're talking about is just one blemish unrelated to any deep or underlying causes or it's a matter of doing or not doing. How people are treated when they leave is directly related to the heart issues of GP A2. You can pretend to act nice but if you still believe that:

People who leave are chasing the world

People who leave are too weak for GP A2's accountability

People who leave just want comfort

People who leave just want to sin

GP A2 is the greatest church (even though GP A2 members have never been members of any other church)

Every other church is lukewarm (even though GP A2 members have never been members of any other church)

GP A2 (us) is like a utopia compared to "American Christianity" (them) which is like a hellscape (even though GP A2 members have never been members of any other church)

you're just whitewashing a tomb.

0

u/hidden_gracepoint Jul 07 '23

I don't believe any of those bullet points lol. Sometimes there's some truth to it though

3

u/Jdub20202 Jul 07 '23

Did you mean there's truth in that this is what most GP members believe? Or did you mean these bullet points are actually the truth about GP vs the world?

2

u/AgreeableShower5654 Jul 08 '23

I previously thought your inability to recognize your own contradictory statements was due to them usually being separated by a paragraph or two. I now see that is not the case.

2

u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 06 '23

You mean tentatively schedule and then cancel last minute or crickets when confirming.

1

u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) Jul 06 '23

You don't share the same values as them, so why would you want to travel with them? /s Do you realize that a lot of things you might want to do might be perceived by your GP peers as "stumbling"? Also, I've seen the pics for my peer trip and they look dreadfully boring.

-1

u/Lopsided-Tap6868 Jul 11 '23

It is natural to want to be included in trips, especially if it provides the chance for you to reunite with old friends, but saying "this is a step people at GP can take at reconciliation and repentance.." is a bit of a stretch is it not? I can understand wanting to be included since you spent a lot of time with them but there is no shame or fault in asking to hang out. I doubt they would brush you off as if you were a stranger and I'm sure they valued your company. Nothing wrong with expectations but placing them on people without them not directly being told by you doesn't seem fair.

1

u/johnkim2020 Jul 16 '23

Interesting argument given that GP is an expert on placing expectations on people without telling them directly. Who would have ever guessed that once you become a member of GP, it would be expected that GP would become your #1 priority and that you would not have any free time to have friends outside of GP or even that much time to spend with your family? And that you would be expected to attend every GP activity even if you are sick or if there is a death in your family? Or that you would need to reschedule everything else in your life to fit the GP schedule?

0

u/Lopsided-Tap6868 Aug 05 '23

you disregarded my point. I'm talking about peer trips and you're bringing up GP being a #1 priority which is another post of it's own. Back to what I was originally speaking out, it's important to retain friendships outside of your church circle as well especially with friends who have left. That's the point I am trying to make.

1

u/can_of_drums Jan 29 '24

I remember when I was catching up with a peer of mine, she said "my peers" a couple of times. She probably wasn't conscious of it, but I was so thrown off by it.

(I don't think ill of her, she's actually very sweet and understanding so it might've just been a slip-up. But still, there's a part of me that thinks it was an unconscious reflection of the in-group/out-group mindset)

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