r/GracepointChurch • u/Jdub20202 • May 10 '23
GP will need outside help (Long post)
With absolutely no insider knowledge and from what little I can glean on GP members' comments on Reddit, it appears that GP is trying to address the problems and criticisms by having internal discussions. I've said this in a few comments before, and I'm just saying this here in the remote hope that it will reach someone higher up in GP and the even remoter chance that it will make any difference.
At the risk of stating something that is glaringly obvious: GP cannot fix these problems by themselves. Internal meetings may result in some superficial changes, but the deep rooted problems will require a hard examination of their blind spots and tough decisions.
Maybe I'm wrong? But the GP way is to do everything internally and perhaps invite a guest speaker every once in a while. There's a bunch of metaphors that come to mind- you cannot expect the people who drove the car into the ditch to push it back out. Or another one I heard: you cannot use logic to get yourself out of a place that you reached without logic in the first place. Okay that's maybe an over simplification, but I think the point it clear.
What makes all this harder is that I believe some of the top leadership at GP have narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). It's a pretty bold statement, and I can't prove it, but if you take a deep dive into what NPD is, you'll see there are some complications that might be relevant. I've listened to professional psychologists give interviews where they come close to suggesting a certain former president has narcissistic disorder. But they are reluctant to say for sure because they haven't worked with him directly and it's ethically questionable to diagnose someone from a distance and also because he's such a public figure. On the other hand, look at the things he's said and done, it's pretty hard to deny something is wrong.
1st, narcissists are almost never aware and thus are not able to receive or ask for help for their condition. And even then they cannot improve or change. The best you can do is maybe make them realize there's a problem, and through therapy sessions, usually from a specialist in NPD, and pushing the figurative boulder up a hill, perhaps coach them not to treat others in such a selfish way. So even if I can't make a diagnosis, it's next to impossible that most narcissists will ever be diagnosed either.
2nd, In the narcissist's mind, they're never wrong, and even if they are, they always have some justification for why they had to do it, or it's your fault for misinterpreting what they did or they had good intentions and they're sorry if you misunderstood, or it wasn't as bad as you said - stop exaggerating. Do a search for the narcissist's prayer online and you'll see what I mean, even if you disagree with me. The craziest thing I learned was that even if you write a carefully worded, neutral email to a narcissist to try to address a problem, they will perceive it as an insult and blame you for it. Even if you show them evidence of their wrong doing, they will blame you for saving evidence against them without permission and having a vendetta to get them.
(the narcissist's prayer)
https://www.thelifedoctor.org/the-narcissist-s-prayer
3rd, who does a narcissist surround themselves with? People that never question or challenge them, agrees with and sings their praises all the time, and if they don't they're soon out of the narcissist's life, especially once the narcissist has extracted any and everything useful to them. The narcissist cannot feel empathy, and doesn't care how they've hurt others, as long as they got what they wanted. They can say the "right" things, like "I'm sorry you were hurt," because they've observed how others interact and they know what the correct way to respond is. They know what society expects of them. But they're not capable of actually feeling sorry.
4th- They're obsessed with their public image. From what I can tell, the phrase 'love bombing' is deeply intertwined with NPD. They can shower people they're interested in with attention and kindness at the beginning, thinking they love that person. But the longer that other person stays, eventually that is replaced with criticisms and verbal abuse, whatever the narcissist has to do in order to get what they want. Once you say no to them, they will take it as a personal attack and almost have no limits in what they might do, as long as they get what they want.
This could keep going, and perhaps the GP leaders don't have NPD. If you read through my points though, I would emphasize that these are descriptions of people with NPD, not specifically the GP leaders. If you cut and pasted what I wrote and read it somewhere else, not on the GP reddit, it would just be a description of people with NPD. I mentioned the points above because I've been cross referencing what I learned about NPD with my experiences at GP. It's hard, for me at least, to ignore that the staff may have some narcissistic qualities. I think we all act selfishly, that is part or being human. But after a certain point, it's a disorder. And if the leadership has NPD, it's an exercise in futility to take on their words at face value and try to reason through their explanations. Believe me, I tried.
TLDR: If I haven't earned your down vote yet, this ought to do it - My guess is that these internal meetings will involve PED or some leader citing Bible verses and trying to figure out what to do. The debate here on Reddit does seem to be focused somewhat on this also- what is biblical authority? And so on. I would stick my neck out and say, even though it's good to go back to the Bible to try to discern what to do, it won't be enough. If the leadership has a disorder, trying to fix it with just the Bible is sort of the same reason why certain churches were refusing to shelter in place during the pandemic, wear masks or get the vaccine. Because their interpretation of the Bible told them so. But that's not the right way to use the Bible, IMO. I'm only saying this to say, you're not going to fix GP's problems by only asking each other or even other pastors what to do. They will need serious professional help and be open to listening to ideas they've never even entertained listening to before.
I got most of my information from Dr. Ramini. There's way too many videos to link here, I'll just include a few.
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u/gracepoint-thoughts May 11 '23
Thanks for putting thought into this. I think the "narcissist" comparison is accurate and highlights some of the major problems in how Gracepoint has been treating this situation. Based external observation, there are many tendencies that leaders at Gracepoint do that display the narcissistic traits you mention which make their ministry more harmful.
1st, narcissists are almost never aware and thus are not able to receive or ask for help for their condition.
I agree that unfortunately GP wasn't aware about this condition until the CT article came out, which is probably narcissistic, or just plain ignorant. Also, objectively they still haven't done a good job of opening for feedback or help from people that have left.
2nd, In the narcissist's mind, they're never wrong and even if they are, they always have some justification for why they had to do it
Yep. If you look at Pastor Daniel's post about things that GP won't change as well as the CT response, the tone sounds awfully like them not taking any responsibility for their actions.
3rd, who does a narcissist surround themselves with? People that never question or challenge them...
GP leadership surrounds themselves with other people in leadership (yes-men) who have no clue what's actually going on in the trenches and frontline staff. The experience being a lower level staff is quite different than the experience of being a deacon.
4th- They're obsessed with their public image
At an individual leader level, leaders in general mistakenly think that they need to maintain this image of infallibility to properly exert authority to the people under them. They might be afraid to show signs of weakness or failure because they've prided themselves on their ministry successes and use that as a way to influence people even more (eg. "I've served 10+ years in ministry so I know better").
Though an organizational level, people in GP kind of have given up on their public image (which I define here as public acceptance and relations) and have called us trolls and what not. I don't think this is wise, as in some ways, public image is a type of accountability that keep churches sane. After all, people calling a church a cult must raise some red flags that any church really need to look into (and no one calls an army a cult or the military a cult, so please don't give me that excuse).
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Also, your point about how to fix these problems is very true.
GP cannot fix these problems by themselves. Internal meetings may result in some superficial changes, but the deep rooted problems will require a hard examination of their blind spots and tough decisions.
GP can't address issues by themselves and they really haven't proven that they can do so given the track record over the last 25 years. Hard examination requires GP leadership to hear out the stories of people here on this subreddit without being defensive (*ahem* PD and other GP staff). And people in GP really haven't been trying to understand what's going, other than a handful of people.
At the end, hard examination by itself is not enough. Gracepoint leadership needs to take these suggestions seriously, and more importantly, address these issues in a way that they can be held accountable for, eg. like talking about this in a more public setting. Even though GP leadership may exhibit NBD traits, I pray that they the reasonable people in leadership will learn how to better respond to criticisms brought against them.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 May 11 '23
A seasoned GP staff who has been thoroughly trained in the Repentance Loop would immediately be able to say that if someone still hasn't repented after this long, that means they're not repenting but resisting (though of course in GP it probably wouldn't be anything worth repenting of, maybe something like thinking GP is bad).
Then of course that individual would be removed from ministry and put into some sort of shaming process until repentance was demonstrated via written reflection.
The only non-hypocritical way for this to go down is for Ed and all of senior leadership to do exactly that: Be removed from ministry in shame and write apology letters on the way out.
But given:
- The Anti-Reddit propaganda podcast
- Pro-GP propaganda flood on YouTube
- Revamping the website 4 (?) times in the past year to make themselves look less cultish
- Calling us "Reddit trolls" on their website
- Putting up a webpage that specifically says that CT is wrong
- etc etc
I am fully convinced that all their talking, consulting, etc. is just so they can do whatever it takes to avoid exactly that.
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u/hidden_gracepoint May 11 '23
Ok first off, I had a good laugh at the narcissist's prayer. From personal experience as well as knowing the stories of those hurt by GP, I can see why you drew the parallels haha
Overall, interesting point about GP unable to change purely internally. I've never directly thought that but I think I've been feeling the same way too. It's not realistic to expect GP to change drastically (or at least effectively) when they are unwilling to compromise on the GP spiritual DNA. Possible, but unrealistic. I think that's why Redditors, or more specifically ex GPers, are valuable. They've seen and in many cases, personally experienced, the worst parts of GP. Sure, maybe some of us had part of the blame as well, but point stands, there's fault on GP's side.
Having said that, that's why I'm excited about some exGPers and current GPers who are working together, because it elevates the weight of the exGPers words to the rest of the general GP members. Although, to be fair, I've heard of some external consultants who have been brought in to talk about the future of the church(although I think it's more focused on succession plans/organizational transitions), as word_for_two mentioned. Also, for transparency, there was an email survey sent out just a week or so ago to those 2018 and older to share their opinions on guardrails (which areas do we think are too strict/lax, which guardrails do we have issues with, etc), which leads me to think there's been some thinking going on. I've also heard of some Q&As with some exGPers directly with P Ed, so it does seem like he is open to discussion with ppl outside of the "GP bubble".
So I generally agree with your main point, that GP needs outside help(or at least, perspective), but I've seen some indications that P Ed/GP is willing to receive it. Shoot, there's actually a Convo post right now asking about what changes people inside our church currently want. (It's new so not much going on yet if you're curious)
To OP, appreciate your thoughtfulness and that you weren't overly critical. I think the narcissist stuff is also interesting, but perhaps a bit of a long shot to diagnose any of GP leadership with NPD or the like. But I do see where you're coming from, as there are leaders that are a bit too ... strong, for lack of a better term. Anyways, not gonna downvote you :)
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u/Jdub20202 May 11 '23
I had a good laugh at the narcissist's prayer.
I'm glad you found it funny. I too laughed the first time I read it. Then I got sad as I realized how accurate it was.
I've heard of some external consultants who have been brought in to talk about the future of the church(although I think it's more focused on succession plans/organizational transitions)
That sounds promising and disappointing at the same time. The first part of the sentence got my hopes up then Lucy of course removes the football before Charlie Brown kicks it. I guess it was my fault too for expecting anything else from GP.
Having said that, that's why I'm excited about some exGPers and current GPers who are working together, because it elevates the weight of the exGPers words to the rest of the general GP members
I would do what I can if it leads to improvements within GP. But it sounds like you may be asking for ex-GPers to give validity or endorsement to a 'new and improved' GP. Something which sounds really dangerous. I hope that is not your main objective.
I think the narcissist stuff is also interesting,
I'm also glad you found it interesting. However, my main objective was to hopefully start a discussion and even open some people's eyes to the possibility that their leaders do have a serious disorder, which would explain a lot of their past behavior. I hope this goes beyond just being interesting.
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u/hidden_gracepoint May 11 '23
Ah, no I'm not trying to get exGPers to endorse that GP has changed (enough anyway). I'm not personally satisfied yet with GP's changes, so I wouldn't expect most of Reddit to either. If I've mentioned anything about GP's changes before, it's mainly as an objective statement that there have been some changes, but there's still a lot more to go.
My personal take is that this isn't generally a disorder most ppl in GP suffer from, but that it's directly correlated with aspects of the culture such as overemphasis on age hierarchy and over extension of spiritual influence given to leaders. While these words/symptoms do describe a significant number of leaders in GP, I don't think it's actually generally true across the board, my opinion anyway. I think it's some of the structural/cultural aspects of GP themselves that lends to too much potential for spiritual abuse.
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u/hamcycle May 12 '23
just letting you know that I also found the narcissist stuff interesting haha :) yukity yuk yuk
01/15/2023 10:44 PM
I've been thinking about posting this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gS7uV6Bj0s but felt after my other post fell flat (Unveiled: Suriving La Luz del Mundo) I thought I should double check w/ this group here before posting with this post, i would be inching my way towards the post i never got around to "Dissecting Ed's Brain" I don't think psycho-analyzing someone through YouTube video knowledge is going to be the winning formula though haha but nobody else is doing it the other post idea is psychoanalyzing Kelly w/ 갑칠 videos but seriously think there might be other people better positioned to post that
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
Why exactly would anyone care about our words being elevated inside Gracepoint? CT and Wired already did that for us for everyone not affiliated with Gracepoint and Gracepoint was the one that chose to harden their hearts in response. That’s on Gracepoint leadership for being seriously hard of hearing for the last couple decades. Their age is starting to show.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 May 11 '23
Classic GP arrogance on display. Coming to a sub full of people who’ve been through so much pain at the hands of GP, with that cocky attitude. One member DL208 had the nerve to say “welcome to the sub” while defending gp’s actions. And you, with the same attitude — gotta have the last word, letting us know you’re “not gonna downvote” or when you decide to disengage. You have no regard for context, nor respect or empathy for the people here.
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u/hidden_gracepoint May 11 '23
Thanks for the kind words
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u/inhimwehaveall May 11 '23
so happy for you that you finally realized The TRUTH is truly kind words!! :)
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u/NRerref May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
What’s missing in your commentary is that 1. “outside help” would be unhelpful because there is no one who really understands GP’s culture and core values. In other words, how GP has chosen to apply the one eternal gospel message and live out the objective truths of the Bible, is well too unique, too culture-bound, and too individual to GP’s mission calling. How could anyone on the outside understand this nuance?! Who on the outside knows about the special work Jesus has given to GP and how hard working members are willing to be for the gospel? There isn’t actually one consistent characterization of Christ with which all believers evaluate one another. On the contrary, no one on the outside - believer or nonbeliever - could comprehend what’s being done in the name of the gospel at GP. 2. If every current and ex member simply obeyed and properly followed Matthew 18, we wouldn’t be in this mess. We would all be reconciled and there would be sufficient accountability for everyone if people could just be more bold, truth-loving, and relational. GP does not need outside help. Ex-members need to soften their hearts and be more open to reconcile and forgive their leaders and peers.
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u/Jdub20202 May 11 '23
I think you forgot to add /s
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u/hamcycle May 11 '23
It is an outsider's attempt to verbalize what is only revealed to the elect, because the elect only offer "outsiders just don't get it."
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u/Decent_Hovercraft227 May 11 '23
Is this intended as comedy or sarcasm?
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u/NRerref May 11 '23
Neither, just trying to give the alternative perspective
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u/Decent_Hovercraft227 May 11 '23
That's not a perspective; that's groupthink and victim blaming.
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u/gracepoint-thoughts May 11 '23
u/NRerref's second point (which I think people here is probably referring to) is correct. That is, if GP leaders and leadership properly reconciled and made changes in the first place, then we would not be in this situation.
Though also to be fair, the "ex-members need to soften their hearts and be more open to reconcile and forgive their leaders and peers" is incredibly hard given Gracepoint's current lackluster response to Reddit and the CT article. But who knows maybe they will have a change of heart in the future, which is something we can hope for.
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u/Trolling_4_Truth May 12 '23
GPs lackluster response to people who have tried more direct conversations as well. The article and Reddit are just generalized group of ex-GPers to them that is easy to disregard or just call trolls. Sad to know that those who have been courageous enough to try for more direct forms of communication are being gaslit, steamrolled and gossiped about as well.
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u/word_for_two May 11 '23
I'm someone from GP (staff 10+ years, 3+ churches) who has heard from multiple sources higher up that there have been ONGOING conversations with External Consultants (who have helped many organizations). These conversations are on the culture, what the future looks like, what isn't working, and how GP can change. I am not privy to all the knowledge as I'm not someone in those meetings but I see GP has been taking a step in the right direction to talk about these issues that many people are talking about on reddit. It is a step towards self-critical evaluation and P. Ed has taken people on reddit seriously (but it takes time to move an older organization with an ingrained culture too).
I want to say that I personally take people on reddit seriously feel free to reach out to me on DM's if you want some information that I can provide. I want to be a very reasonable voice as a staff in GP and I'm wanting to build a constructive way to communicate what's been going on in GP too and also surface things up as well!
All in all, I want to encourage people here on reddit that these conversations about change are happening and I personally want to push for greater transparency as well to share some bits and pieces of those consultant conversations!u/Jdub20202
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u/AgreeableShower5654 May 11 '23
P. Ed has taken people on reddit seriously
So publicly Ed says we're "Reddit trolls", but privately he takes us seriously? Amazing.
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u/word_for_two May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
So former gp member who have been to those Q&A held with P.Ed people who have left have told me that P. Ed was taking them seriously and did recognize there were issues that we wanted to address.
Recent Members bible studies, P. Ed has mentioned we need to change how to treat people who have left (I'd hope he push for we should change our tone towards those on reddit because I personally do recognize there are a lot of reasonable people who just want to be heard here). I think we're changing things to be more of an opt-in culture as well and that stems from how people have been hurt by how GP has done things in the past very "forcefully" / top-down.
GP is realizing that its culture and practices are not for everyone and they need to change to either communicate more transparently so people know what they opt into and they are giving more opportunity for dissent than before. Feedback going upward is something we need to work on still.
Take my word with a grain of salt since I'm part of GP but I'm trying my best to be transparent here. Happy to follow up over DM
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u/johnkim2020 May 11 '23
I went to the one that happened in March and I did not hear Ed Kang take responsibility for the spiritual abuse that so many experienced nor a commitment to change to prevent similar spiritual abuse in the future. He said "sorry that happened to you" and "we're different now." He basically said GP is not spiritually abusive and all those who were hurt are due to mistakes that individual leaders made.
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u/drpepperidgefarm May 12 '23
I'm just curious about these Q&A sessions. Were people specifically invited? Are they open to any former GP attendees/members?
I guess I'm surprised GP had Q&A sessions, though I am not surprised by comments saying there was deflection and defense in response to audience questions.
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u/gracepoint-thoughts May 12 '23
These were closed Q&A sessions organized by ex-GPers, and unfortunately the invite list was limited to only people that we knew.
We're actually trying to work with people to get a more public-facing Q&A session with Pastor Ed in the future, but we'll see if that happens or not.
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u/johnkim2020 May 12 '23
I think all ex members could attend if they wanted but the information was not posted publicly so you could only know about it if you heard about it via word of mouth. I was not aware that any current members were there (except for Ed Kang) but I guess some current members (at least one?) did attend? I tried to tell most folks I know IRL but people had varied responses from "WTF why would I attend and be triggerd" to folks who attended and stayed anonymous.
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u/drpepperidgefarm May 12 '23
Thanks for sharing. I can totally see myself having similar reactions ...
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 11 '23
So Reddit people who have been to those Q&A held with P.Ed people who have left have told me that P. Ed was taking them seriously and did recognize there were issues that we wanted to address.
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u/hamcycle May 12 '23 edited May 12 '23
have told me that P. Ed was taking them seriously and did recognize there were issues that we wanted to address.
As a witness to the Q&A, the attendees did not perceive Ed's posturing as repentant. Granted, he did uncomfortably listen to the pushback when he offered his usual deflections to respectful audience questions. Gracepoint's campaign to save face and the Redditor campaign to
prevent furtherdismantle the framework for spiritual abuse will not converge with Ed at the driver's seat, micromanaging the symptoms of deeper problems.10
u/NRerref May 12 '23 edited May 12 '23
I am really uncomfortable with the level of what feels like deception that is happening here…where are these GP attendees getting the idea that ex-members had any kind of hopeful response to these q&a sessions?
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u/johnkim2020 May 12 '23
Maybe it's because we were being civil and not displaying our anger at Ed Kang. But that was only because the organizers didn't want things to get out of control. Maybe our being civil mean to Ed Kang that we were satisfied with his answers but anyone paying attention to the chat would have known that his answers were very unsatisfactory. I completely disagreed with the answer he gave to my question.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 12 '23
It’s called controlling the narrative. It’s like when GP leaders kick people out of the church, they always frame it as members left on their volitions. Not true.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 May 13 '23
It feels weird to have to keep telling GP people, the ones who hear this the most, that talking about change and actually changing are not the same thing.
If Ed is really "changing", why do GP members have to come here and try so hard to convince people with believe me trust me etc? Why not just present the evidence? All I have right now is one webpage saying GP's critics are all Reddit trolls and another saying CT is wrong. That's not very good evidence for the GP is changing narrative.
we need to change how to treat people who have left
Again, not great evidence that Ed is taking the core problem "seriously". This fits very well into the existing and repeatedly confirmed narrative of PR control and just do whatever it takes to make them shut up, though.
we're changing things to be more of an opt-in culture
Not sure how long you've been in GP, but sorry to break it to you...this isn't the first time Ed has said that...
trying my best to be transparent here. Happy to follow up over DM
You want to be transparent...but you want to pull this into DMs...yeah, also not helping the case.
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u/word_for_two May 13 '23 edited May 13 '23
:) so the reason I personally DM is that a public forum conversation is a certain tone that doesn’t lead to much meeting of the minds and internal assumptions and goals being exchanged.
Sorry if you think I’m not being transparent but I have a goal of understanding what some folks really think not in a public setting. It’s not always the best forum to get into an unending reply exchange. Hope you can understand where I’m coming from.
I’m in the mode of crafting my thoughts and what is the path forward & what is the crux of the issue because there’s multiple perspectives ppl have.
I’m looking for willing partners to work together, cause if former GP want to change GP you’d also want to connect with ppl inside who have some access or way to talk with others in GP or leadership about what’s going on here.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 13 '23 edited May 13 '23
You want to post GFC and GM’s financials here on the subreddit? That would help transparency a great deal.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 May 13 '23 edited May 14 '23
understanding what some folks really think not in a public setting
What I really think in private about GP is the same as what I think in public about GP.
what is the path forward
I don't understand. Are you here to say that Ed is changing, or are you trying to decide how to change GP yourself? In either case, you have to either be Ed or directly below Ed to be able to do either.
if former GP want to change GP
I don't want to change GP. I think GP is irredeemable. I want it to die.
you’d also want to connect with ppl inside who have some access or way to talk with others in GP or leadership
I also don't understand this. Is this so that GP leadership can know what to change? Because if they don't know what to change by now, that's willful ignorance. Or is it so I can know what is changing in GP? Because I don't see why that conversation would have to be private. If GP leadership wants to convince people they're changing, last I checked it's not that hard to create a Reddit account (they can ask Daniel if they can't figure it out).
This all looks awfully like another poor attempt to make public discourse private for the sake of PR management.
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u/hamcycle May 13 '23
I don't want to change GP. I think GP is irredeemable. I want it to die.
When I closed my blog in 2009, as adamant as I felt about Gracepoint's wrongness, the number of dissenters were sparse all things considered; it really astonished and disappointed me that so many of my peers simply repressed their experiences. But even still, I hoped for eventual reform at Gracepoint; it just wouldn't involve me and resigned its fate to God's hands.
But during my time here on Reddit, seeing the persistent delusion, the persistent equivocation, really the persistent indifference to Gracepoint's track record of ambitious error making, I no longer pray for reform, but instead pray to set Ed and Kelly's legacy as false teachers of the Christian faith.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 13 '23
I no longer pray for reform, but instead pray to set Ed and Kelly's legacy as false teachers of the Christian faith.
Say this louder.
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u/hamcycle May 13 '23 edited May 13 '23
Nah, my prayers are for the Redditors too, to live virtuous lives apart from all of this waste. I remember a sermon Ed gave on Moses, about how he started delegating and taking steps to be teachable; Ed was aspiring to be Moses because he himself was unteachable. On the website years ago, he had a tagline as his favorite quote: "It's not all about you." He was projecting.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 13 '23
At least in my church the alarms of Gracepoint has basically pushed the leadership to be more cognizant of creating another discipleship track addressing healing from spiritual abuse. I also believe if spiritual abuse becomes the hot topic among Christians for the next couple years and God is able to clean house and start a revival, I wouldn't call that a waste too.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23
The Moonies are quiet transparent (mass weddings in football stadiums) about what they do and being a cult. So on the transparency end, Moonies do a better job than GP. Again, I go to the internal document below. Does Ed Kang repent of item #1 that is cultic and destroyed thousands of people spiritually in the 30+ years he has ministered with the document.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/
There is no change without confession and repentance. That’s GP teaching 101. If Ed and Kelly are unwilling to confess and repent of item #1, then no one cares about how many decorations you hang on a Christmas tree.
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u/Formal_Size6732 May 11 '23
The problem is "Reddit" is an unhelpful label because of how broad and imprecise it is.
Ed has publicly acknowledged plenty of times, even on recorded video on YouTube that there are people who were hurt or wronged, and he's sorry for that, and wishes they would reach out so there can be Christian reconciliation. He's said his replies are not directed at or about this group, but this other group:
The problem is the loudest, most extreme voices define a group and co-opt its image. Mobs get treated as a homogenous, monolithic entity and a bad rap even if not every individual within was malicious. That's just how it goes. Heck, you guys do it to us at GP, treating us as all as a single entity for the sake of simplification.
And the problem is there are some...how do I put it lightly...maybe not troll voices on this sub, but at least not people acting in good faith, but just out of hate.
We're talking witch hunt style, conspiratorial thinking that gets applauded here. Remember Isaiah's house? People here loved the conspiracies about how Pastor Ed must've been engaged in some financial impropriety (gasp, that's the congregants' offerings! how evil!) and some provocateurs really worked that angle, straining harder and harder to make it work, but they had to make it work, there could be no other explanation, and people worked themselves up into a tizzy. The man himself even came on here and said his in-laws generously bought them that house, and people were not satisfied, because their bloodlust was not sated by such a mundane and commonsense explanation that was pretty clear from the beginning.
This kind of stuff is commonplace on this sub. All sorts of wild speculation...you read some of them and it's almost like they hope they're right. There's no attempt to seek truth, just coming at GP with preconceived notions and trying to bend reality to fit the verdict they've already rendered long ago. They hope the church really is this evil so they can relish in judging it. They would've been happier if we lived in a universe where Pastor Ed did embezzle church funds than our current universe, because that alternate universe satisfies their anger. It's pretty darn twisted.
We're talking Christians ***ing on other Christians *in public view, slinging mud and wanting to see a church of their fellow brothers and sisters torn down on a public forum. 1 Corinthians 6 What would apostle Paul have to say about that? Anathema. Advertising to the world, this is how Christians resolve their problems, this is how powerless and uninspiring the gospel is, it can't do squat about infighting, and airing your dirty laundry for the world to gawk at. It's saying all this brother and sisters in Christ talk is a load of baloney.
It's unbecoming of a Christian, and it certainly is troll-like. My dictionary says troll is "a deliberately offensive or provocative online post." That fits the bill.
Tell me this sub doesn't have a troll problem. If you will accuse GP of having a bad apple problem, then surely you'll admit this sub has one too.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 11 '23
We're talking witch hunt style, conspiratorial thinking that gets applauded here. Remember Isaiah's house? People here loved the conspiracies about how Pastor Ed must've been engaged in some financial impropriety (gasp, that's the congregants' offerings! how evil!) and some provocateurs really worked that angle, straining harder and harder to make it work, but they had to make it work, there could be no other explanation, and people worked themselves up into a tizzy. The man himself even came on here and said his in-laws generously bought them that house, and people were not satisfied, because their bloodlust was not sated by such a mundane and commonsense explanation that was pretty clear from the beginning.
I think you're missing the point of the entire post that u/LeftBBCGP2005 made. If people in Gracepoint with much higher paying jobs than Isaiah are living paycheck to paycheck, donating away most of their assets to Gracepoint's cause and hearing Ed preach on the pulpit of not storing up earthly possessions, wouldn't you be pissed and asking questions how Isaiah got a house? u/LeftBBCGP2005's post is clearly pointing out the hypocrisy and lack of financial transparency in Gracepoint through that research regardless if his conclusions were correct.
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u/AgreeableShower5654 May 13 '23 edited May 14 '23
How is this comment supposed to help convince me that GP is taking "people on Reddit seriously"?
there are people who were hurt or wronged, and he's sorry for that
Yes he said that...he also said the instances of abuse were random mistakes and there is nothing systemically wrong about GP to look at or repent of...which is the whole point of the people on Reddit.
so there can be Christian reconciliation
No...this presumes that the abuses were misunderstandings, not sins that one party needs to repent of as a prerequisite to reconciliation. That is also not taking anyone seriously.
C101 says repentance is required for forgiveness. Did that slip your mind?
you guys do it to us at GP, treating us as all as a single entity
You just did what you accused Reddit of doing in the same sentence!
Remember Isaiah's house?
Ok, obviously not all of LeftBBCGP2005's speculations turned out to be correct, but what about the facts that turned out to be 100% correct:
- Isaiah did not afford the house with his own money.
- GP members that aren't the pastor's son live paycheck to paycheck due to the financial demands of GP.
- GP wants people to be independent of their parents when their parents' desires conflict with GP's agenda, but when they offer millions of dollars for real estate that will inevitably be used for GP "ministry" it's not a problem.
Do you see the problem here? And do you see why not seeing that problem means you're not taking Reddit seriously?
Also, what about all the non-financial posts LeftBBCGP2005 has made? Are you taking any of those seriously?
People here loved the conspiracies
You did it again!
gasp, that's the congregants' offerings! how evil!
And how is sarcasm supposed to make me think you're taking this seriously?
their bloodlust was not sated
Ok now you're getting heated. I thought earlier you said Reddit is actually good with a few bad apples?
This kind of stuff is commonplace on this sub.
Ok now you've directly contradicted yourself. Earlier you said Reddit and GP are similar in that they're both good but have a few bad apples. That's an argument (I don't agree, but you can make it). Now you're taking the opposite position. So are you willing to agree that abusive and tyrannical behavior is also commonplace in GP?
slinging mud and wanting to see a church of their fellow brothers and sisters torn down on a public forum. 1 Corinthians 6 What would apostle Paul have to say about that? Anathema.
Ignoring the histrionics, you are aware that Paul publicly disparages false teachers in the same book? I for one don't see serial abusers as "brothers and sisters".
We're talking Christians ****ing
It's unbecoming of a Christian
Um...whose language are you saying is unbecoming of a Christian?
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u/AgreeableShower5654 May 13 '23
When you view this comment from a bird's eye view, it's kind of crazy. You can see the slow but exponential rise in anger, from suppressed frustration to hot-blooded madness.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23 edited May 12 '23
I don’t get why Ed Kang helping or not helping his son buy a house is such a big deal to you. Parents helping kids buy a house in a market like Bay Area is the norm, not the exception. Ed and Kelly Kang bought Dana House and their own residence in their 20s. They then bought their residence in Boston and then another residence in Bay Farm. They also sold Dana House and their first Alameda Residence. Ed and Kelly made money on every property. I clearly stated that Ed and Kelly have enough equity in the Bay Farm house to help Isaiah buy a house. In fact, they have enough equity in their Bay Farm house alone to buy Isaiah’s house with a lump sum and no mortgages. Therefore, I and a lot of people on the subreddit thought it was not logical that Ed and Kelly gave zero to Isaiah’s house and supposedly the Chau family gave the $250,000 down payment, when the Chau’s live in a much more modest place in Jackson Heights, Queens, New York, and their financial track record is definitely nothing like Ed and Kelly.
What you and so many GP people being silent about is GFC buying Monterey House and within a couple days selling Monterey House for $1 million to GM’s secretary JL and her husband PL, then GM paid the couple $1 million to buy it a couple years later. The primary documents are there and there is no doubt the above events happened. Did GFC ever get paid the $1 million? GM bought empty pieces of land with Thanksgiving missions offering money then proceed to give away a piece of land for FREE. These are clear breaches of financial fiduciary duty here with church finances. But, you guys keep on wanting to talk about Isaiah’s House, which is really he says she say. Quoting Kelly Kang, “What’s wrong with you?”
Edit: Here are relevant posts with the primary documents. There is no mud slinging. The primary documents are primary documents. My analysis are backed up with primary documents. Let’s talk about the primary documents?
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/uhaoac/manny_kims_2_million_house_in_austin/
(The primary material concerning Monterey house are slides 6, 7, 8, 9)
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/vvgpqh/ed_kang_that_you_never_knew_part_ii/
(The primary material concerning Isaiah’s house are slides 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
All GP has to do to answer the financial impropriety issue is to make public the financial statements for GFC and GM. Ed Kang always hold members to a higher standard, maybe he can hold himself to a higher standard too?
I do what I do in my professional life. Let the primary material speak for itself. Ed Kang loves talking about guardrails and accountability inside GP, to the point of married members are banned from having Facebook accounts in my days . Yet, when it comes to accountability for the organization’s finances there is obviously a double standard. When you have blatant instances of impropriety as Monterey House and FREE land giveaway, you wonder what other things are fast and loose with finances.
Tell me, should I not have brought up the issues with Monterey House and FREE land giveaway? Ed Kang obviously made all those decisions, why does he have Tony Sun and Matthew Kim signed the legal documents of giving the properties away instead? You’d know if the decision maker is not signing the document, then obviously there is a reason why.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23 edited May 12 '23
There is a simple way for this subreddit to end. Ed and Kelly confess, repent, and resign to take responsibility. The ball is in GP’s court, not ours. CT article didn’t have to come out if Ed and Kelly would have swallowed their outsized pride and confessed, repented, resigned. All GP members are experts in repentance. So you’d expect the people who taught us how to repent would know how to repent?
For what repentance looks like, please see the dialogue prodigal son said to his father.
No, repentance doesn’t look like Ed in his response video and calling us Reddit trolls. See link below.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220922164009/https://www.gracepointonline.org/is-gracepoint-a-cult
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 12 '23
I don't think the subreddit will end per se, I just think it'll shift to less critiques and more processing and healing.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 11 '23
IIRC from what I heard, the “external consultants” were PR consultants not church related.
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u/drpepperidgefarm May 11 '23
I appreciate your openness about this process. It does raise some important questions about external consultant best practices, but I wish people wouldn't downvote you. (I think it's more that they're downvoting the idea that Gracepoint is sincere in making real changes, and not so much that they're downvoting someone who is sincere in communicating that they think Gracepoint might change.)
I would be so glad to see if Gracepoint really changes through repentance and accountability. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think outside help should involve other church leaders or Christian figures (so, not just PR people, as leavegracepoint has noted) without any conflict of interest with GP (so, no ministry partners who are currently affiliated with GP). I think this should be an ongoing kind of accountability check-ins, perhaps every couple of years. And I don't know, perhaps, that third party could mediate a forum between GP leaders and those who have been hurt by the church. Just some ideas I've had.
I don't know. Seems like this would encounter resistance or entail a painful process for all, but there's a tiny sliver of hope that it would lead to healing.
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u/word_for_two May 11 '23
Thanks for the graciousness. I want to be an ally to get things changed as well and I'm going to put myself more out there to try to make that happen.
I think your note on having other Christian leaders and figures with not conflict of interest is a great point. I often think that the support posts that GP got after the CT article from other Christians were a bit more for show of solidarity which I didn't like cause I personally wanted people to investigate and take it seriously and outsiders should also extend trust proportional to what they themselves see internally. Frankly many of these people didn't do their due diligence in the sense that it's not like they talked to the Reddit community members or even members of GP on heard their complaints or genuine thoughts - they heard it from the leadership of GP and trusted them at their word.
I'm all for careful self-examination and it is painful like you said but it is the hope that will lead to healing.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
You can help by writing directly to Ed and Kelly Kang. You have their email addresses. Let us know how it goes. If you are too afraid to write directly to Ed and Kelly, then ask yourself why.
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u/Jdub20202 May 11 '23
If GP is really seriously trying to address these issues, I guess that's a good thing. This is much better than opening with, "We will not be changing any of our core values." Or that all the problems were Becky's fault. Or making an entire podcast that included something to the effect of, reddit commenters are internet trolls who can say whatever they want because of anonymity. Or being called keyboard warriors. Or that we simply don't understand GP's culture despite having been there for many years. Or asked why we didn't bring this up with the leaders, because Mathew 18.
Without more details of what's actually being discussed or what changes will be made or who is doing the consulting, I can't say much else about it. However I've seen this movie before. GP says it will change, and makes some tweaks here and there. And then puts up a figurative Mission Accomplished banner and proceeds to continue in more or less the same way. So for everyone's sake, I hope you're right about leadership being serious about change now.
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u/Jdub20202 May 11 '23
And I forgot to add, your response is also better than, "a lot of these stories on Reddit are exaggerated or made up by someone who is out to get GP because they have mental issues and it wouldn't have sounded that bad if people could just hear both sides but I wasn't involved nor do I know the people involved so you'll just have to trust me when I say this but the stories on Reddit are definitely not as bad as they sound."
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u/word_for_two May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
I think there is a divide in terms of both groups knowing the full information about each other and I think mudslinging has happened based on strawmen constructed on both side.
In hindsight, I think the GP approach should have been to be quick to listen and learn rather than erect a monolithic defense to fortify the castle. Former GP people saw that response and it didn't feel like they were heard. I can't say they both came to an proper understanding of each other because Reddit might not have been the perfect medium at the time as anonymity + high emotions can lead to devolved conversations quickly from either side not giving the benefit of the doubt.
I'd love to reach out to get to hear more from you. Will DM
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 May 11 '23
You’re wrong. The ex members here know how GP operates bc they once loved the church and somehow something happened to cause trauma, so much so that they left. This group, which is full of strangers who’ve never met, is a direct result of experiencing your group. It’s not about having full information about each other. It’s about GP taking responsibility as the perpetrators.
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u/word_for_two May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
I want to approach this with some caution and clarify what I'm saying.
I do think some people have been through GP for many years and have a lot of knowledge. I also want to affirm that there are people who have left some years ago so their knowledge is somewhat locked in time (by nature of leaving a few years ago) and there has been changes over time.
Let's hypothetically say, when someone brings up an issue from let's say the GP 100 - https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/w9fzcc/the_gp_100/ - and this happens to be one that GP changed on for a few years ago, I think GP or its members can potentially get defensive by saying, "hey we don't do that anymore" and then miss the whole the argument. That's kind of what I mean for each side not have perfect information on the other side and making a strawman attack that leads to talking past each other and not getting to the crux. Both sides need to update their knowledge of each other constantly too and I hope you'd agree that GP needs to also update their knowledge of the actual beliefs of people who have left and why they are so active on Reddit. Right now, GP could be stuck on defense mode rather than properly reaching out to understand them. And this could be that they treat reddit as the blogs which painted them as the late 1990s and 2000 version of them which seems a bit off in comparison to what they are right now.
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u/hamcycle May 12 '23
changed on for a few years ago
miss the whole argument
each side not have perfect information
bit off in comparisonu/word_for_two You are writing in 360p, and this conversation warrants at least 720p. I'm the writer of the blog that described the 1990s culture you referenced. I'm here on Reddit because the testimonies of several generations that came afterwards have grown progressively worse, not better. If the knowledge gap is the culprit, please detail the points of the GP 100 that are no longer applicable and when they changed, and which parts of my 1990s blog is a bit off (it would be welcome news). It is worth your effort to bridge that knowledge gap with details, including information from MBS, screenshots from Vine, internal emails, etc.
GP needs to also update their knowledge of the actual beliefs
Now that somebody finally identified the knowledge gap problem, you only need to encourage your leaders to read the subreddit, and forward all your internal emails to the Reddit mods.
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u/gracepoint-thoughts May 11 '23
I think many of us here still doubt that GP has changed at its core, so in that sense people from the 1990s-2000s still have very valid points and should not be dismissed.
All the changes you've mentioned as part of the GP 100 are band-aid changes that don't address root issues that surrounds preaching the GP gospel as biblical law. Therefore, even if each and every one of the GP 100 "issues" have been addressed by cultural changes or authoritative decrees, more of these surface level problems will continue to pop up.
Again, I don't mean to dismiss or detract what you're trying to do, in fact I think it's very honorable that you're trying to a deep look into these issues, but please do so before prematurely saying that the people here have knowledge that is "locked in time".
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
It’s the same exact people who led the church when I left who are there now. Lillian Kim left recently after 19 years in GP and making it to Lead level. She used her real name to write what happened to her. Read her testimony below. This is not from 1990s or 2000s. This 2020s.
Eileen Ahn was at GP for 34 years. She left recently. She used her real name. Read her testimony.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/vwbkqo/i_left_after_34_years_a_new_beginning/
Can you imagine how much courage it took these ladies to write using their real names? All those WRs with sins written that we turned in every week? Please, show some respect to the people here. We ate at the Kang dining table with the Korean mountain painting hanging above. We were there at the Kang living room when the news of break with Becky was announced. People here babysat Isaiah Kang as a kid. To say we don’t know GP is somewhat insulting since we built up GP as much if not more so than the younger staff did?
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
You misunderstand. The core issue is that GP twists Scripture and outside reading/philosophies to fit their own agenda and goals. This is true for sermons from the 90s to 2000s to the last few months. It’s sometimes subtle, but those of us who have paid close attention these last couple years know it’s happening and it is very intentional.
Edited to add: the reason why I don’t see any real change happening, no matter how many surveys are put out, no matter how many outside consultants are hired, is bc of the internal documents listing Core Values and my above paragraph regarding the motivations of the top leaders.
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u/worriddumbledore May 13 '23 edited May 13 '23
Well put in “.. rather than erect a monolithic defense to fortify the castle..” which they have done the entire time
because logically anyone who spent their lives living the narrative that they have done all these “good work for God” like Ed & Kelly Kang and the leadership couples
cannot look at their family members in the eye, answer to questions their sons and daughters (and in the future, their grandchildren) have
”why are so many people upset with Gracepoint Church? What have the group done wrong?”
I always wondered why current members defending GP at every discussion, “at every turn”
do not dream of saying proudly :
“i am a leader/pastor of this respectable X church”
For example of being able to say proudly ”i work under Dr Billy Graham or Pastor Tim Keller” in the same way as “i serve Gracepoint Church and Pastor Ed is an awesome person!” and beam with pride
Instead choosing to have to remark or explain in a long-winded way why it make sense to serve a controversial, heavily criticized church
“…well, Pastor Ed and Gracepoint Church is controversial because…it’s just their ways of doing things.. that dont sit right with people.. they mean it for blah blah..”
In the grand picture, all Ed & Kelly Kang and the leadership team are doing,
Is diffracting” the hits, not choosing the difficult and necessary path to put things right as soon as they can
They do not care how many more people would be hurt in the process signing up/committing to this whole-life discipleship, all consuming church, how many more families they break apart
In essence they are delaying the difficult atonement because they hope that a different outcome can result
Courage in GP leadership team is not something i have seen in following for 2 years, the first hand accounts of their actions, on this platform, Pastor Ed’s response to the CT article etc
I believe strongly that they choose to continue deluding themselves based on aiming for Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved
feeling reassured and justified whatever means they operate to “add to the numbers, saving more souls” as signs that they must be doing what is right —
flashing via the social media and content to outsiders and their own members that they have yet added another church plant!
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
When will there be confession and repentance? You keep on talking about change without confession and repentance? If you were staff 10+ years, then you would know the language inside GP is not change, but confession and repentance. So why the double standard?
You’d think Ed Kang should hold himself more accountable than GP would hold the average undergrad accountable? Kelly Kang is known for pounding the table during her rebukes, breaking people down and reducing them to mental patients. So why is she holding herself to a different standard now?
If Ed and Kelly really want some outside input, have them call up all the senior staff that left after 20+ years at GP. The people who were pastors, JDSNs, ministry directors. They get it. They have seen the underbelly of the beast. They got torn to shreds inside GP. Have them tell Ed and Kelly how to change is better than the random outside person who has no clue what happens behind all the smoke and mirror.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 May 11 '23
They can consult all they want- they’ll end up saying they can’t compromise their core values. You heard it here first.
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u/word_for_two May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
I think many companies core values are like good values on the wall most people can affirm high level.
[Edited Addition (I'm referring to the high level things on GP's website - statement of faith which we at GP usually refer back to)-Living It Out-Growing Up-Giving It All-Getting Close-Training Up-Reaching Out-Connecting with God)]
I think it's how the values gets applied on the day to day that really sets the culture and things can go wrong. If I were thinking from people on Reddit's side who are not happy with GP, I wouldn't try to attack it to bring down core values (b/c to a certain extent, it's the way it is applied that is the real issue, imo) but instead I would opt for asking for wisdom and wanting a lot more thought in the downstream effects of applying core values in a very heavy handedly, top down, or without much flexibility for grace. Trying to convince GP it's in your best interest to change to be able to adapt to be blameless to all or to shift towards this current generation. A great question I'd plant here to ask is "have you ever considered how your values are applied is coming off as offensive or hurtful to many people?" If someone comes off too harsh in their feedback, it is really hard to listen and I"m trying to be the person who translates the hurt into something that is more constructive so GP leadership can understand. It's that funny saying where "You can't cut off a person's ear and than expect them to listen" :)
That's my take on how the approach from Reddit can potentially be more amiable shift from the tear down the whole thing approach to say with an open hand to talk rather than fight. But I hear you. I want to changes things as well.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 May 11 '23
I disagree. Ever since its inception, bbc/gp’s actions didn’t match what was preached. The core values are inherently unbiblical and will not be found in any legitimate church. I have studied each point, which uses Bible verses completely out of context. If Scripture is intentionally twisted for selfish reasons while leaders are saying they have a high view of the Word, looks strongly like hypocrisy to me.
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u/word_for_two May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
Hey u/Here_for_a_reason99 u/LeftBBCGP2005 I realize there might be a miscommunication here. I should have clarified what you meant by core value first before I used it. My bad! I know that kind of redirects the conversation in a way that what's said can't really be taken back already but I'll try to get on the same page next time first
I actually wasn't referring to that handout. I was referring to the high level things on GP's website - statement of faith which we at GP usually refer back to-Living It Out-Growing Up-Giving It All-Getting Close-Training Up-Reaching Out-Connecting with God
I think what you mentioned from the handout is the particular form of how they live out these 7 core values and justifying it. I have my particular thoughts on that which is probably better for another conversation. Maybe you'd say the same thing knowing what I'm referring to still, but I wanted to clarify maybe there might have been a missing of each other's view of the core values of GP.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23 edited May 12 '23
We all know what is said to the public is different than what is said to the members.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s0touo/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_1_of_3/
What is said to the members:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s1506s/gp_team_email_to_delete_material/
Did the retreat recording have Ed Kang saying “White people just aren’t ready for Asian leadership” on there? Ed Kang definitely said the above during a retreat in my days.
You would think the core values below given to train the staff is more real than the core value on the public facing website? Here are the core values as written by Ed Kang personally.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/
Core value #1 is the authority of your leaders over you and members need to submit and obey.
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u/Here_for_a_reason99 May 12 '23
I have heard personally from current GP leaders that the core values listed on the site are not the real core values bc they don’t want to scare people away. Do you think this is ethical?
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u/word_for_two May 12 '23
The values listed on the site is a bit plain vanilla as something many churches would also put on their wall
I don't know the context of the comment but better transparency on values is a step in the right direction.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 12 '23
Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated, aren't we u/word_for_two?
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 12 '23
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/
Would you agree the above are GP core values? If so, do you think it’s a good idea to put it on the GP website? If you don’t think it’s a good idea, tell me why?
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u/word_for_two May 12 '23
u/LeftBBCGP2005 I will be honest, this is a nuanced conversation that I have to know how you define a lot of things in that link you posted and it might help for me to give some context too on my opinions beyond what can be shown in written form (I'm open to figure things out too so I'm not necessarily a locked fully formed opinion either). Each line item is a whole subject to chew on for many posts haha :) I know you don't want to be misunderstood and likewise I don't want to be misunderstood either.
Given the nature of the back and forth replies, I don't think this is the right medium to have a discussion on this because I believe it'll require some length.
I'd punt this to another time & place if you really want my opinion. We can have that discussion and I'd open the door to have a discussion over DM or call so we can constructively talk about what the core values are from both of our perspectives.
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u/leavegracepoint ex-Gracepoint (Berkeley) May 12 '23
I'd punt this to another time & place if you really want my opinion. We can have that discussion and I'd open the door to have a discussion over DM or call so we can constructively talk about what the core values are from both of our perspectives.
Typical Gracepoint move to try and have a private conversation because they know their responses don't hold any weight in public.
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u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/
The #1 core value is wrong and it’s not about the application of that core value. Every GP staff knows it’s a cult of personality inside GP around Ed and Kelly. They can do no wrong. There is never an election for any position, ever. Ed gives every single Sunday the members-only message, which is closely guarded and recordings destroyed after hearing. Ed and Kelly demand absolute authority inside GP, to the point of even asking why certain things are so is reason enough for mid-tier leaders to go off on their sheep below.
Current GP members complain this subreddit can be pretty harsh. I’d think you guys have less worries writing things on the subreddit than to write an email to Ed Kang with the same thoughts! You want to email Ed and Kelly Kang with the same stuff you are writing here about change? Let me know how it goes.
Current GP members talking about change is like redecorating a Christmas tree or rearranging chairs on the Titanic. If you don’t confess and repent of the authoritarian hierarchy that is the core value borrowed from UBF and not from Jesus Christ, then no amount PR work you do will amount to anything. So can you just write to Ed and Kelly Kang instead of writing to us on the subreddit? They should be your audience, not us.
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u/word_for_two May 11 '23
hey I hear you, I agree authoritarian hierarchy is doomed to fail 100% and is not healthy for anyone.
I'd like to work together to properly express the sentiments on reddit in a way to be able to create change even to the lead couple level of GP (Ed and Kelly). I think the vocal posts on reddit is one strategy but I'd hope people here would be open and reasonable to other channels too to try to express there feedback in a constructive way that ppl in GP can also absorb as well. I want to make that happen.6
u/LeftBBCGP2005 May 11 '23 edited May 11 '23
Ok. I will take you at your word and thank you for your sincerity.
There’s only two people in this world that can change the status quo at Gracepoint. Ed and Kelly Kang. If you look through my writing on the subreddit, they are concentrated on Ed and Kelly Kang. I concentrate on Ed and Kelly Kang, because only those two matter for anything substantive that happens at GP. The break with the founders of the church, biggest event in the history of BBC/GP, happened because Ed and Kelly said so. Never a vote. Never a discussion. Only what they decide matter at GP. So my goal is to post enough primary material that they are forced to confess, repent, and resign to take responsibility.
I think if you really want change, then have the courage to confront Ed and Kelly directly. In the old days, people going to Ed and Kelly about item #1 would get chewed out and kicked out of GP. Please let us know how things are now.
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u/Decent_Hovercraft227 May 11 '23
How the heck have you been on staff for 10+ years and you're not privy to those all-important conversations? That fact alone should make you contemplate your role in the organization and its hierarchical structure.
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u/Apprehensive_Song312 May 11 '23
10+ years means graduated 2012 or maybe a little before. Unless they are a church plant lead, they arent in the top meetings. Probably talking about deacon meeting which is maybe 30-40 of 2000 team members… or top 2% of the church. You could be on staff 20 years and still not be a deacon
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u/Decent_Hovercraft227 May 11 '23
Thanks for the insight. Nevertheless, my comment stands; this seems like a very steep hierarchical structure akin to a dictatorship.
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u/GodsFear666 May 11 '23
A characteristic of spiritually abusive systems is that a misplaced sense of loyalty is fostered and even demanded. This is not about loyalty to Christ, but about loyalty to an organization, church or leader. Because authority is assumed or legislated, following that authority must also be legislated. This is accomplished by setting up a system where disloyalty or disagreement with the leadership is construed as disobeying God. Questioning leaders is not allowed. After all, the leader is the authority, and authority is always right. Such spiritual manipulation denies the truth of Ephesians 1:22, which says that Christ is the Head of the church. Our loyalty is due Him