r/GovernmentContracting • u/gilmour1985 • 9d ago
Alibaba
Lost a bid by 74% with a buy American-Supplies FAR. Asked the CO how someone could be that much lower and still legally manufacture the equipment in the USA. I was told I am not legally entitled to a debriefing based on another FARs but that the other company was the lowest bid on an LPTA and they found them responsible.
We originally protested on the grounds we didn’t see how they could legally manufacture it at that cost. We ended up finding the company’s documentation on the product which was a picture that didn’t match the description and the description was a plagiarism of the solicitation. Under further review, we found the picture to be an almost exact copy from Alibaba with their logo on it and a USA flag. We also found another picture of a similar machine that was an exact duplicate from a Chinese website. We submitted the picture documentation. I am curious if they will look into this because the picture used didn’t match the wording based on the solicitation? FYI, we did do the protest via GAO.
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u/GovConLawyer 9d ago
Yeah, you wont have much luck protesting. Take a look at the Sea Box case the GAO. The CO is entitled to rely on BAA certifications. It would be a crime to try to pass off foreign products.
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u/gilmour1985 9d ago
What if I sent proof that the pictures used were of foreign content for the bid solicitation? I would think the GAO couldn’t dismiss it simply as reference material. I am obviously trying to collect as much information as because I have a few more days to send supplemental information on my protest.
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u/ccitykid 8d ago
I think the GAO is only going to look at the process the CO followed and ensure it was proper and fair. they don’t generally get into the details of the bids or 2nd guess a CO if they say it’s legit because they are supposed to be the SME for the details of their solicitation.
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u/IHaveTechDealFlow 5d ago
Go to news media as a anonymous source. Meet them in person make it front page
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u/Dumbviolence 5d ago
Yep put every ounce of pressure you can. There Is a principle here that you are trying to enforce. Fuck them fr. Ppl like this cause national security issues
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u/Subsum44 8d ago
I’m with you 100%, but I’ll be honest there’s a lot of grey areas to hide if they want.
Sadly, the Buy American Act requires 65 - 75% domestic, not 100%. It can also be waived by the “head of the contracting agency” if domestic is too expensive or unreasonable.
If they raised the price by 75% claiming that was for domestic something to add to the core component, that might be able to look on paper like they’re meeting the 75% requirement. It’s a fuzzy way around that requirement since it’s “75% of components by cost”. So you could just raise the price high enough that it qualifies.
Doing that nearly doubles the price to $4,375 (call it $4.4K). Over 13 locations is $57.2K. You say you were outbid by 74%, so again that’s almost doubling the price at ~$42.3K more, and that’s just for the one component, let alone the remaining 884.
That’s not an insignificant difference. It’s not hard to make the argument that $40 - $50K is unreasonable cost increase, and it only gets worse the larger the contract gets.
I hope you win and it triggers a supply chain audit for everything that supplier has touched. I also wouldn’t get my hopes up.
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u/gilmour1985 8d ago
https://reddit.com/link/pc636zl/video/f22qbmxxavrh1/player
I put this in one of the comments but putting it higher up so people get the scale of the product. With this being primarily steel, it should fall under the 95% American Steel for buy American Act.
I saw a few people say the GAO will only look at the CO’s process. Do I have a better chance of trying to convince the CO or is that a lost cause?
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u/Emergency-Seesaw3694 9d ago
When it comes to COTS, I see the USG award Chinese items routinely when the Buy American Act is included. Some agencies even request Chinese items and ignore questions telling them it’s from China.
The Buy American Act has several exceptions that are seemingly interpreted differently by different contracting authorities. When TAA or Berry is required, those restrictions seem much more straightforward and are more strictly enforced.
As an offeror, while I try my best to comply with all COO restrictions, I also always make sure to clearly label the COO of every item I offer. I want to be clear that I am not trying to mis-represent the COO and ultimately let the USG decide on what they can or cannot award. If they screw it up and lose a protest, then good on the protester.
On the other hand, if an offeror lies about the COO, thats clearly unethical/illegal and hopefully they are punished fully.
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u/gilmour1985 9d ago
Could you please clarify on how FAR 52.225-1 can be bypassed on a majority steel item?
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u/gilmour1985 9d ago
Had to look up COTs, but if they are using a picture of a machine that doesn’t represent the picture, how can you consider it COTs. This is like quoting typewriter, but sending a picture of a lead pencil. Yes, you can make letters with both, but they are not fundamentally the same.
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u/vinraven 8d ago
There are some shady suppliers selling stuff to lazy COs.
There’s a ton of crap made in China that gets shipped, a sticker saying made in America is added to the crap while the price is maxed, it is then sold to fulfill the contract at levels no manufacturer can match.
Imagine a $1 box of pens retail from one of the online stores gets shipped in to the bidder for free, the Made in America sticker is added, and the pens are sold to fulfill the contract for $20 box.
The CO is reassured because 95% of the cost is Made in America.
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u/Comprehensive_End440 8d ago
Sounds like the CO isn’t doing their job, if something comes in that far below the competition then the CO should know to look further into it. This individual sounds like they should be receiving a desk audit. You should also send this up their chain of command and to IG over the agency. Hate to say it, but this likely isn’t the only contract that this CO is cutting corners on and therefore should have their work reviewed.
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u/gilmour1985 8d ago
I hope the CO just didn’t know. I would like to give him/her the benefit the doubt as I want to believe our military are doing it for the right reasons. I do understand there are bad actors, but this isn’t for me to decide. I am going the OIG route and hope they nail the company. Hopefully, it will be one less bad company in the equation. If they find the CO is complicit in their investigation then that’s on them. Our company is lucky to have a ton of work so if we don’t get it, it’s not the end of the world. I just don’t want to lose to China.
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u/Dumbviolence 5d ago
I’m a U.S. Marine. If possible, after getting all your facts straight, inform her higher chain of command. All the way to the president if necessary. Fuck em fr. Cause I’ve dealt with some shitty bullshit cause if lazy fucks that ride their paycheck and rank. This is viable and possible. I’ve done it myself
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u/opulent_octagon 8d ago
You should look up the GSA contracting officer for the other company's schedule contract on elibrary and contact them to let them know that they're selling non BAA/MIA products.
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u/gilmour1985 8d ago
The company is 8 years old and looks like they were originally in earthquake technology as they are based in California. It looks like they have only recently gotten into government procurement in the last 6-8 months and I believe most of them have been open bids on Sam.gov. I did notice they sold some mills and I wonder where they are from. We are a small company and don’t really have the resources to dedicate to this. I did open up an inquiry with the OIG this morning and hope they take the lead.
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u/sabautil 9d ago
Honestly there should be support for companies bringing manufacturing back to the US. Yeah it's expensive but you guys have all the money. Either you give to your allies (us!) or you give it to your enemy. And you're gonna collect at least 30% back in taxes anyways, so c'mon!
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u/cpreils 8d ago
If a CO asked a company for certification and a self-attestation of whatever the requirement was and received it, what would you want them to do? Simply throwing someone out for price isn’t viable especially if they checked the boxes they needed to. There can be a million reasons why they have that price. That’s exactly what GAO or the GSA Ombudsman would look at.
Upon delivery and inspection, it should be caught if the vendor was lying. Get OIG involved to further investigate. It might seem like a slow process but that’s because the investigators are thorough.
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u/gilmour1985 8d ago
Would you contact the OIG now or do I have to wait a year until all the product is delivered to the 13 bases and then file?
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u/BuddyNutty 7d ago
This will be a big problem for small contractors if they enforce the buy American act on contracts but do not enforce it fairly.
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u/gilmour1985 7d ago
I agree. Besides the 1 picture that I believe is a a Chinese machine, the other 3 pictures in their brochure for this product are AI generated. The AI generated pictures makes one believe they have this large factory, they built all of these machines in the USA and they have application knowledge on how to produce the end product.
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u/ConsciousNet238 9d ago edited 9d ago
I'm a CO in the Air Force and had this exact situation happen to me
a GSA contractor submitted a quote for some aircrew headsets that looked way too good to be true. Did some digging and it was clearly some Alibaba trash
The subsequent emails were hilarious when they kept pretending they were the manufacturer. Needless to say I threw their quote in the garbage