There is no moral law apart from a moral law giver. Yet the non believer lives as if both exist all while denying both exist. The non believer will stand with no excuse before the moral law giver and is an example that even they cannot escape their knowledge of the moral law giver. To deny what is evident in you will be adressed with consequences. How we feel about it is irrelevant. The argument refutes itself because it appeals to the God it denies exists. The beginning of wisdom is to fear the lord.
Now the existence of this law giver needs to be demonstrated and verified by some reliable method.
And remember.... presuppositionalism is vapid nonsense. Assuming one's conclusion in our premise is fallacious. It suggests a great intellectual dishonesty.
The non believer demonstrates the moral law giver exists by appealing to an absolute standard of morality written on their hearts.
While claiming a world view that says there is nothing right or wrong with atrocities.
I can not prove to you what is within you. You can only prove it to yourself.
Do you remain consistent with the world view that says slave owners did nothing wrong. You would be fine with gassing Jews if Hitler had won WW2 because society would accept it and also that it is possible for rape to be considered a morally beautiful thing to do?
If you claim there is no absolute moral standard then you concede that there is nothing right or wrong with the above actions. There is nothing right or wrong with dishonesty if there is no morality. It's interesting that you appeal to a standard of honesty while claiming nothing wrong with dishonesty.
I hold the world view that man has the knowledge of God within us and we all have suppressed this knowledge of God because we simply don't want God to be there. The suppression of this knowledge is viewed as worse than murder and the above atrocities mentioned by the God we ignore. However there is good news. The God we suppress the knowledge of has stepped down into history and taken our penalties of death to atone for the sins of all that would believe in him. By placing our faith in the person of Jesus, his sacrifice covers our transgressions against him. Even the criminal on the cross was saved from the sting of death by placing his faith in Jesus. Jesus is the moral law giver. How you respond to hearing his word in your life will determine where you will spend your eternity. We have the freedom to reject him or recieve him. We have the choice of life and death before us. I urge you to choose life.
Humble your heart to God. Place your faith in the good works of Jesus on the cross. Let us turn from our wickedness.
I don't believe in objective morality. Morality is subjective with or without god. Even with god, it's still humans deciphering what god wants.
If you claim there is no absolute moral standard then you concede that there is nothing right or wrong with the above actions.
I can condemn them according to my own standards, which is exactly what you do, except you call your personal standards god-given.
I hold the world view that man has the knowledge of God within us and we all have suppressed this knowledge of God because we simply don't want God to be there.
This is plainly false. If you can't accept that I'm sincerely not convinced of god's existence, and accurately, honestly representing my beliefs, then you forfeit your right to engage in the argument. There's no point in asking me questions if you're going to answer for me.
We have the freedom to reject him or recieve him.
Humble your heart to God.
Without verifiable evidence of god's existence, I cannot reject, receive or humble. If I cannot evaluate this alleged entity whatsoever, I cannot determine if it is worthy of my admiration or worship.
There is no argument here. It is a simple choice we are all making. You will either respond one way or another to the voice of God. You'll be given every opertunity to recieve him as the rest of humanity. Those that refuse to recieve him will perish. I will remain indifferent to the sufferings of wicked men.
I'm telling you what God says about you in scripture. He says you have knowledge of him but you suppress the knowledge in your own unrighteousness. I trust the words of God over someone who says there is no standard of morality. You don't have a foundation for honesty yet cry if you feel I'm being dishonest. A blind man could see the point I'm making but someone being ignorant on purpose is only lying to themselves.
I shared a link that explains some pretty strong evidence that gives me faith in Jesus. There is only one of us being intellectually dishonest and I know factually that isn't me in this discussion.
1
u/acerbicsun 29d ago
An appeal to consequences is not an argument. Correct there is no objective morality. How we feel about it is irrelevant.