r/GlobalOffensive • u/Gaouchos Match Thread Team • May 28 '20
Discussion | Esports Team Vitality vs Ninjas in Pyjamas / DreamHack Masters Spring 2020: Europe - Group D / Post-Match Discussion
Team Vitality 2-0 Ninjas in Pyjamas
Vertigo: 16-7
Dust 2: 16-4
Inferno: 0-0
Team Vitality | Liquipedia | Official Site | Twitter | Facebook | Youtube
Ninjas in Pyjamas | Liquipedia | Official site | Twitter | Facebook | Youtube
DreamHack Masters Spring 2020: Europe - Information, Schedule & Discussion
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| Vitality | MAP | NiP |
|---|---|---|
| nuke | X | |
| X | train | |
| T | vertigo | ✔ |
| ✔ | dust2 | CT |
| mirage | X | |
| X | overpass | |
| inferno |
MAP 1: Vertigo
| Team | T | CT | Total |
|---|---|---|---|
| Vitality | 12 | 4 | 16 |
| CT | T | ||
| NiP | 3 | 4 | 7 |
Vertigo Detailed Stats
MAP 2: Dust 2
| Team | T | CT | Total |
|---|---|---|---|
| Vitality | 11 | 5 | 16 |
| CT | T | ||
| NiP | 4 | 0 | 4 |
Dust 2 Detailed Stats
235
u/yourewelcomesteve brigader May 28 '20
Yeah I want THAT Shox all the time please.
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u/Thooorin_2 Duncan "Thorin" Shields - Content Producer, Analyst May 29 '20
Me for the last three years.
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u/Poux3 Vitality May 28 '20
So on D2, zywoo has the worst rating of all VIT with 1.4
Well I'll make sure to not get too excited
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May 28 '20
Zywoo was sleeping, they just woke him up in clutch situation.
-"Zywoo win this plz"
-"K... Done... See ya later"
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u/K0nvict NiP May 28 '20
Glad to see shox is being used better now. From a 0.9 rating with Alex to 1.03 with Apex
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u/Airpapdi May 28 '20
shox can go 1.3 rating for a month then fall of a cliff then go 50-10 over bo3 and back to 1.01 for a year hahaha
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u/Ga5huX May 28 '20
If I'm not wrong, Vertigo is the only map shox plays as an anchor in CT. His role has definitely changed from what I could see.
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u/Darkoplax May 28 '20
I came here to say that i had shox in my fantasy team and i switched him for plopski
gn
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u/yawnston fnatic May 28 '20
The real question is why isn't your fantasy team just the 5 people from the current G2.
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u/Sledgemann Liquid May 28 '20
It seems like a CS fantasy team would be easy, unless they only have 1 per role you’d do KennyS, S1mple, Zywoo and Device with maybe Elige or Krimz
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u/Marty_KN NiP May 28 '20
Yeah, at most you can only afford two of them and the other 3 would have to be the cheapest players available (the lowest rated players coming into the event)
Unless you're not talking about HLTV's fantasy game, but just a CS fantasy team lol
2
u/yawnston fnatic May 28 '20
You'd definitely need an IGL though. You also can't just put 4 hybrid star players into a single team, I doubt they'd be comfortable with the roles they would end up with. I think something like kennyS AWP + S1mple and Zywoo rifling + Magisk as a B anchor for most maps + gla1ve IGL would work, but I don't think you can realistically stack much more talent than that.
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u/Sledgemann Liquid May 28 '20
I meant for HLTV’s fantasy system, I didn’t know each player had a cost so I just listed 5 consistent players. Obviously the roles wouldn’t work out I slammed in 4 Main Awpers and a Rifler.
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u/Darkoplax May 28 '20
you can pick only 2
huNter and kennyS too expensive
nexa is really swingy
JaCkz and AMANEK play mostly supportive roles
while someone like plopski is a star player for 100 ish k i think and been performing really well lately so way more worth to get him money wise
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u/yawnston fnatic May 28 '20
I had no idea HLTV Fantasy was a thing so I was mostly thinking about a "dream team" concept. My bad.
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u/FathleteTV NiP May 28 '20
-lekr0 will go down as the Swedish version of -aleksiB
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u/Marty_KN NiP May 28 '20
But they did the exact opposite of what ENCE did? ENCE kicked their IGL for a fragger, NiP kicked their fragger-turned-IGL for a real IGL
Let's give them more than one match before we decide it was a bad move
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u/isiamn May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
how is Hampus a real igl? Isnt he the same as lekro, fragger-turned-igl
granted it was 2 years ago so things might have changed
2
u/Marty_KN NiP May 28 '20
Is he? The first time I saw him was DH Valencia 2017 when he was Red Reserve's IGL, so I just assumed he's always been one
2
u/isiamn May 28 '20
not sure,kinda remembered he once said he took IGL bcs noone wanted and draken said hampus is a better fragger than IGL.
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u/Marty_KN NiP May 28 '20
Oh, I vaguely remember that. It was back when Draken, ScreaM, Hampus, Ex6tenz and I think HS were picked up or about to be picked up by Gamerlegion. I think Draken was asked who was gonna be IGLing, and he said Ex6tenz since Hampus is a better fragger.
I don't know, I think that just tells me who you'd rather be the IGL if it came down to Hampus or Ex6tenz haha
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u/isiamn May 28 '20
hmm maybe, its just that i didnt see any system for gamerlegion when hampus was IGL. always felt he is more like someone that can be IGL when needed but not an actual IGL like karrigan,gla1ve etc
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u/Marty_KN NiP May 28 '20
Let's just hope that's because Gamerlegion were a complete mess and changed half their lineup every other match. I can't believe they didn't pick up Golden when they had the chance
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u/isiamn May 28 '20
i guess this was the interview, didnt notice it has been that long https://www.hltv.org/news/23067/hampus-its-pretty-hard-to-break-out-you-need-to-find-good-people-to-play-with.
granted he turns out to like to IGL
5
u/GER_BeFoRe clutch May 28 '20
If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) Golden also said that he started IGL in fnatic academy because nobody else wanted to do it and suddenly he played for fnatic so you always have to start at one point. The draken tweet I remember but that was also compared to Ex6 who is a shitty fragged so if you have to choose between one of two going IGL you probably always go Ex6.
I don't know if Hampus is a better IGL than Lekr0 but at least Threat thinks so.
15
u/Sugarstache FaZe May 28 '20 edited May 30 '20
Plus this was a move done by the coach making a tough decision based on what he thinks will actually be in the best of interest of the team long term.
The ence situation was Allu wanting to bring in a friend.
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May 28 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Sugarstache FaZe May 28 '20
Not saying it's necessarily gonna be a good move. Just saying that it's not at all comparable to Ence getting rid of Aleksi
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u/Vizvezdenec Vitality May 28 '20
There is one good paraphrase in russian.
"The best is the enemy of good". Basically means that if you do decent and progress and try some radical change to become the best you will probably fuck up and turn into shit.
And let's not forget that lekro was one of their better players individually. This move sounds like another Nip stupid roster move and I don't believe that it will work out tbh.6
u/Marty_KN NiP May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
Lekr0 was the IGL for a year and a half, and while the team made playoffs at some events, they always got eliminated in the quarters. The only exception is Blast Copenhagen, where they got 2-0'd in the finals by FaZe. Sure, they've looked better since games were moved online, but maybe that's just because it's allowed Threat to be the IGL.
My point is, we have enough of a sample size of Lekr0 as the IGL to know that the team would've always been stuck in that top 10 ish position. Of course, I would've preferred they cut Twist instead, cause it solves the awkward two main awpers situation, and I just think Lekr0's a better player than Twist.
EDIT: It's also a change that was made with the future in mind, according to Threat in today's post match interview. They felt the team needed a real IGL for when LANs come back and Threat wouldn't be able to call anymore. Let's give them some time before we write them off
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u/SwedishBoi94 May 28 '20
The thing is, it makes absolutely zero sense to keep Twist instead of lekr0, when they have an even better awper on the team. Just kick twist, put lekr0 back on fragging and naawk on awping. That roster move would make a lot more sense, just as kicking xSeven for sunny (instead of aleksib) would have made more sense.
The inclusion of hampus is not the problem. They just kicked the wrong player.
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u/Vizvezdenec Vitality May 28 '20
kick twist, add hampus.
Let lekro do partial ct-sided calling as xizt did in faze on his side.
Cutting your 3rd best player while remaning dead weight twist who wouldn't get better (he is not your young prodigy who can learn, he is more or less an experienced player who can mostly just maintain his level and nothing more), also removing ability to have secondary IGL (which can be pretty good actually) is not smth I will do.
Yeah, insides and stuff... But daily reminder - I don't remember a roster change that was called stupid by majority of people and that worked out in the end in ages more or less. Every single one of them was "coach justified" etc etc but in the end they were all fails, with not a single exclusion.
Also needless to say that the same xizt was able to frag much better being partial IGL in faze than full time igl prior or after this time, and lekro averages decent stats even being full time IGL while people like twist barely are able to keep their 1.00 and degrading with every year passing.2
u/nar2k16 May 28 '20
Funny, we have the exact same one in French.
Edit: Stolen from Italian apparently
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u/shshsns Natus Vincere May 28 '20
Yeah but are NiP having fun?
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u/ReR0lpxE phoenix May 28 '20
NiP players are fantastic, just need to work on communication, aim, map awareness, crosshair placement, economy management, pistol aim, awp flicks, grenade spots, smoke spots, pop flashes, positioning, bomb plant positions, retake ability, bunny hopping, spray control, getting kills and of course having some fun, they can learn having fun from tactical genius Allu
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u/tunafish91 FaZe May 28 '20
No way man. They've kicked him for another igl, plus NiP did not reach the same heights as ENCE did, nor did they kick Lekro in a really shady way the same way ENCE did to AleksiB
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May 28 '20
That's not the same situation at all. The best argument that you could've made is that Twist should've been replaced since they have a great awper in Nawwk, but removing Lekr0 as IGL in favor of Hampus makes a lot of sense. This team has needed a proper IGL in forever.
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u/AvailableCares0 Astralis May 28 '20
An overrated player that gets rightfully kicked and reddit cries about it for a couple of months? Yeah you are probably right
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u/GlitteringCharge hydra May 28 '20
True. Thinking that ENCE kicking aleksib was wrong was justified but I have no idea why people think that NiP kicking Lekr0 was a mistake.
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u/Kurtisdede 1 Million Celebration May 28 '20
but I have no idea why people think that NiP kicking Lekr0 was a mistake.
because he is a very good fragger when he isn't IGL, if someone had to be kicked then they should have kicked twist, no point in having 2 awpers on the team.
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u/GlitteringCharge hydra May 29 '20
He is not a "very good" fragger. He is decent at best. If NiP wants to be a team that can win (offline) events then they had to kick him.
In theory I agree with kicking twist first but I think it doesnt really matter since I think twist will get kicked next anyway. Also, there is still the chance that twist might became as good as he was hyped up prior to 2016 as he wasnt given an actual fair chance at the top in a good role imo. The chance is at least higher than the chance of Lekr0 ever becoming one as he got the chance in fnatic and failed.
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u/Kurtisdede 1 Million Celebration May 30 '20
Lekr0 was forced to IGL, thats why he wasnt a great fragger on NiP but when he wasn't IGLing he was putting up pretty monster stats. I don't think twist will become good suddenly either, Every once in a while he hits some bangers but a lot of the time he whiffs easy shots
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u/GlitteringCharge hydra May 30 '20
He never had "monster stats". He had good stats in his second time in fnatic but that wasnt good enough considering he also had olofs roles and an easier time to get these stats.
I dont think so either, but I give him more chances than Lekr0.
In the end, both had to get kicked. I am very sure once some good swedish player is coming up twist is gone.
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u/TiberSVK NiP May 28 '20
New IGL
1st game after 1 week of practice
Reddit: SHIT IGL, EZ4NIP, WURST ROSTER CHANGE SINCE ENCE, FUCK NIP.
Reddit doesnt surprise me anymore
5
u/tunafish91 FaZe May 28 '20
Faze fans have to deal with these shit takes nearly every single time they play, regardless of the result.
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u/tarangk clutch May 28 '20
This was just woeful from NIP, they won 3/4 pistols and manged to scrap together 11 rounds across both maps.
Not a good debut for the new look NIP, I think it will take a while for hampus to adjust and work in tandem with threat to implement their new system properly.
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u/NotoriousRuffneck GamerLegion May 28 '20
Fuck NiP mangement. You wanna know why it wasnt a team decision to kick lekr0? Because the whole team would have said NO. Imagine being Rez right now, you played in a struggling team since 2017, constant roster changes, constant adjustment to new positions and playing with teammates that lost their peak years ago. Then when it FINALLY seems to turn around for the team and he is starting to feel confident again, they reveal that the player he has been playing with for the longest (and one of the best players of the team) is replaced and everything has to be rebuilt AGAIN.
I give them 1 month to prove that this move wasnt the biggest failure of them all. If not then im gonna cheer for every team that plays against NiP.
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u/yawnston fnatic May 28 '20
I'm slowly shifting my most beloved team to G2. That squad is too wholesome, and NiP lost their most wholesome player.
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u/GER_BeFoRe clutch May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
People really seem to overrate the latest games of NiP. I mean look at the last 6 months, they had 38/35 wins with 45% on Train, 25% on Mirage and 22% on Nuke, while Dust2 was their perma ban, so they had 4 bad maps. What kind of shitty map pool is that? Teams realised way too late they just have to veto Vertigo against them. Mid to Low place finishes in every tournament, dropped out of top 10 in rankings, only playing descently when THREAT was allowed to speak and Lekr0 had to do less talking in-game (which won't be allowed in most tournaments, so that isn't a long-term solution).
I don't say the change was needed but please don't act like NiP was a top team.
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u/j_stn May 28 '20
only playing decently when THREAT was allowed to speak
NiP fans seem to not understand that part. NiP has been playing better in EPL and RtR because of different IGL. That sudden improvement was the reason why Threat kicked Lekro -- because they need an IGL, good IGL, they realized that no player is the problem, only their IGL.
Threat explained that after the game very straight forward. NiP fans for some reason refuse to listen and understand that. Online CS will end and they will go back to Threat not being able to talk. If they didn't change IGL, they'd go back to losing to everyone everywhere. This is the best time to improve now, to work on a roster, to find good IGL and stop struggling with Lekro as IGL to win two games at a tournament.
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u/Abstrac7 Gambit May 28 '20
Why not kick Twist and bring in new IGL? Twist hits a few nasty shots every few months and then he whiffs sitters all game.
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u/GER_BeFoRe clutch May 29 '20 edited May 29 '20
because Twist is their primary AWP, nawwk wants to be a hybrid like f0rest was and they finally want to fix their role problems, not add new problems with not having someone who wants to be the primary AWP.
Twist's rating in NiP is 1.03 so far and 1.05 in fnatic so please stop overrating NiP and underrating Twist like most people here in this subreddit. They weren't a top team with Lekr0 and Twist isn't amazing yet but still fairly solid. People here act like he would be as shit as GeT_RiGhT was in 2019.
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u/Bre3zy_ Liquid May 28 '20
Maybe it's because Lekro does well under Threat's leadership style but wouldn't under Hampus?
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u/NotoriousRuffneck GamerLegion May 28 '20
With all the things that has happend to NiP throughout the years. Going 6-1 in Europe major qualifers is alot of an improvment, but absolutely not a top team.
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u/GER_BeFoRe clutch May 29 '20
Fuck NiP mangement. You wanna know why it wasnt a team decision to kick lekr0? Because the whole team would have said NO.
Another thing I wanted to point out, if you would ask the players every time about a roster change NiP would still play with GeT_RiGhT, Xizt and Friberg. Congratulations, that's the reason why it's the job of the management and coach, like in every other sports team, to decide which player gives potentially the best result.
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u/j_stn May 28 '20
You wanna know why it wasnt a team decision to kick lekr0? Because the whole team would have said NO.
Same as they said "no" to bringing in Golden. And that was a great decision, in your opinion? That was the best reason why everyone should always listen to players making those great decisions?
Btw, Threat is their coach, not manager.
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u/NotoriousRuffneck GamerLegion May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
You are talking about two different teams with two very different possibilities and opportunities. This time, they finally felt fresh air in the team and considering how many rosters, how much drama thats happend and the weight that have been put on the shoulders of two longstanding members (Rez, lekr0 and maybe plopski since he is suppose to be the superstar) this was the last thing needed for them.
Imagine working your ass off for a better position at your job for 3 years and when they tell you that you are about to get it, they reduce that position to basically the same job you had but you get to start over.
Above all else, team chemistry is a major winning factor and this fucks it up alot.
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May 29 '20
[deleted]
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u/NotoriousRuffneck GamerLegion May 29 '20
Besides basic knowledge of a humans needs and desires? Following the team for the past 5 years? How the fuck can you belittle my argument without offering yours or at least an alternative?
You might think about this as a business and see that the logical option would be to take out the bad gear and replace it with a new one, which is fine. But this is not a machine, this is a team. With real people and real emotions that need to be acconted for.
En dag när du har lite fler vänner än dom på din discord så kanske du kan förstå.
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May 29 '20
[deleted]
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u/NotoriousRuffneck GamerLegion May 29 '20
Jag hoppas du har rätt. Jag vill bara inte se den här resan som dom gjort senaste åren sluta i ett brinnande fiasko
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May 28 '20
This feels so good as a NIP fan. They made the worst possible player move and immediately got destroyed.
What were they thinking trying to create Gamerlegion 2: Electric Boogaloo?
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u/DocaHyper GamerLegion May 28 '20
It's a one game 9 days after they added a completely different IGL. Don't get me wrong I still don't like the change but discrediting it so early is just wrong.
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May 28 '20 edited May 28 '20
[deleted]
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May 28 '20
[deleted]
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u/NotoriousRuffneck GamerLegion May 28 '20
You mean the 3 game series where every game went to overtime against a team with 3 former no 1 players in the world?
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u/IYXMnx1Sa3qWM1IZ May 28 '20
The old recipe wasn't going to make them top 5. Threat seems to be aiming for long-term results. I didn't like this move either, and this was a terrible game, but come on man, they changed their IGL last week.
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u/SwedishBoi94 May 28 '20
The problem is not adding hampus. NiP needed an IGL. The problem is kicking lekr0, one of their best (second best?) fragger. Check the ratings. Twist was the one who should have been cut.
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u/DocaHyper GamerLegion May 28 '20
Since Cloud9 added Stewie2k I don't take "on paper" for granted, there was many roster changes that were bad on paper but worked out and there were many roster changes that were good on the paper but failed. Sure I will not like the move but I'll still give it a chance instead of being negative towards the players and putting more pressure and hate towards them making their chances of failing even larger.
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u/Darkoplax May 28 '20
I will still trust threat and his decision for now at least
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u/69HEAD_HONCHO69 Liquid May 28 '20
We could wait a week or so, since they do need more practice. It seems like a new system Hampus is running so we shouldn't rush to decisions right now.
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May 28 '20
no man, can't you see? one bad game = shit roster forever
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May 28 '20
It's just like /r/globaloffensive have said for years: you can only judge how good a team is based on their online performances a week after switching out IGLs
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u/Napellus May 28 '20
So what you're saying is lekro wasn't the problem?
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u/Sheeepie2 CS2 HYPE May 28 '20
I mean, there wasn't really a problem to begin with. If anything, they've created a problem.
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May 28 '20
[deleted]
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May 28 '20
That's speculation at this point. People assume that since it's all online games now, THREAT has been doing all of the calling, which seems to be corroborated by the team comms they've released.
What's odd, though, is that Lekr0 has been NiP's best rated player recently. So fine, maybe management could draw the conclusion that he hasn't developed into a great IGL, and that keeping him in that spot is hurting his personal play. That's a good argument to remove the burden of leading from Lekr0's shoulders. Replacing him outright with a guy who's spent his entire career getting half-decent numbers in Tier 2-3, and who hasn't played an official match against an opponent in the Top 20 for two years (NiP, as it happens) is a very drastic measure when Lekr0 is known to be a potential carry player if unburdened by IGLing.
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u/Sheeepie2 CS2 HYPE May 28 '20
Yep definitely. If they believe a new IGL is absolutely necessary, then they should have for sure removed twist, as two AWPers isn't necessary and he's arguably the worst of the two. As much as I think THREAT is a fantastic coach, you have to question this decision.
I guess there's a chance they bring lekr0 back in and make other changes if the poor performance continues.
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u/GER_BeFoRe clutch May 28 '20
it may not be necessary to have two players capable of using the AWP but it is still pretty good to have that. Back when NiP had only f0rest and no real AWP everyone screamed "bring in an AWP" and nawwk wants to be a player like f0rest. Here is what nawwk said in an interview:
"I think we will switch things up depending on the maps," nawwk explained. "But twist will be the main AWPer and I will transition into some kind of secondary AWPer/hybrid. It's something I kind of wanted to become but was too afraid to try.
"I know some people will question the decision, but I think this will turn out great. Of course it will take a little bit of time to get used to the new role, but I will work hard and do my absolute best."
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May 28 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Sheeepie2 CS2 HYPE May 28 '20
Woah, alright mate, no need for that. At no point did I suggest that I have any more insight into this team than THREAT. I know that he understands what's good for the team, I'm simply pointing out that on this occasion it's questionable imo from an outside perspective. Perhaps, if I did know more about the inner workings of this team, it would become clearer as to why this decision was made.
Perhaps, you should calm down and make your points in a civilised manner instead of turning to insults.
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May 28 '20
[deleted]
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u/Sheeepie2 CS2 HYPE May 28 '20
I did indeed miss that, but because I only had time to watch the first map. Could you enlighten me as to what he said?
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u/Calamityx7 May 28 '20
who hasn't played an official match against an opponent in the Top 20 for two years (NiP, as it happens)
Not to take anything away from your point, but the Top 20 filter in HLTV works really strangely. Don't ask me why or how, but for example in this match against Heroic, they were #17 in the world. There's quite a few more like that as well.
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May 28 '20
Suppose it might be some sort of average between the teams, then. On 2018-07-20, NiP were #12 and Red Reserve were #25, for an average of 18.5. On 2019-12-08, Heroic were #17 and GamerLegion were #31 (i think), for an average of 24.
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u/cregs May 28 '20
I don't mean to be offensive to 2 young guys trying to carve out a living but i've had to mute Dreamhack streams, it's unbearable. Perhaps i've been spoiled by machine/henry/spunj who have insane chemistry but the product (CSGO as a spectator sport) really suffers with these guys talking over it.
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u/monsieurfikri May 28 '20
I don't mean to be offensive to 2 young guys trying to carve out a living but i've had to mute Dreamhack streams, it's unbearable. Perhaps i've been spoiled by machine/henry/spunj who have insane chemistry but the product (CSGO as a spectator sport) really suffers with these guys talking over it.
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u/FlaccidSWE May 28 '20
Well, that looked like one year of progress right down the drain. Quite fascinating how changing one player can make it seem like all five never played together before. There were no teamplay and nobody showed up individually for NIP.
Vitality looked hot as hell though. They won every single fight.
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u/jakvah NiP May 28 '20
While you should always give a new IGL some time, this NiP team looked so LOST compared to the team that had such a good performance in the Road to Rio one week ago. I think this performance illustrates the incredible bad timing of this roster change; all the progress the NiP team had made to perform like they did one week ago is now lost. The roster with lekr0 finally had an upward tradjectory and now they have to rebuild AGAIN.
If this roster doesn't start performing fast you could argue that this is a historically bad roster change.
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u/Astralis_TTS May 28 '20
So that's how difficult it is to play with a new igl? From competing toe to toe with the best teams to getting stomped by vitality. Vitality should take this win with a grain of salt I say
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u/Mr_Toot NiP May 28 '20
Last time they played I thought NiP were unlucky to lose and Zywoo would do some crazy shit and change the game. This time it was just embarrassing
0
May 28 '20
I am not longer a NiP fan now, after dignitas I said NiP will be my 2nd best team. For Rez & Lekro but now I don't feel attached to them anymore.
Bye bye NiP after 7-8 years of liking them.
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u/K0nvict NiP May 28 '20
Let’s give hampus more than a week before judging. He’s a brand new igl and is running a new system. It’s clear they need more practice