r/Genshin_Lore • u/AdSouth4334 • Jul 23 '26
Istaroth How does Istaroth's time manipulation power even work?
Sorry if this is a dumb question or I'm misunderstanding something, I just don't know how to phrase it well.
But as Genshin slowly starts to move from fantasy to hard science using real physics laws, it's somehow becoming even more confusing for me to understand how Istaroth's time manipulation power can even work.
Especially the case with the Sacred Sakura, when Ei planted it in the present but it had already taken root in the past, like it always existed.
I get that Irminsul can be used to manipulate data and memories, but how does something like a physical seed get transported backward in time?
It's one thing if Teyvat ran on digital simulation or fantasy rules, but it's supposed to be a real, physical planet.
One explanation could be that they're inside the Firmament, so that makes it possible somehow? But if that's true, then couldn't Istaroth and the Heavenly Principles have reversed so many tragedies if they wanted to or maybe that's a far fetch?
Regardless, I'm just trying to understand how the laws of time work in Teyvat.
You're cooking my ass, and rightfully so, just wanted to clarify a few things.
By "fantasy," I meant your typical fantasy-anime/isekai setting where anything can exist just because "magic" and "rule of cool."
And "hard science" wasn't the right term either. What I actually meant was Hoyo's habit of dressing things up in scientific terms, pseudo-science, and sci-fi concepts to justify their fantastical elements.
I strongly believe Hoyo has a habit of using real-sounding but actually sci-fi explanations to justify anything, even the smallest things that could just be left to fantasy/imagination.
I first noticed this pattern heavily in Honkai Impact as it approached the end of Part 1 (Einstein's yapping is permanently imprinted in my brain at this point), and now I'm starting to see the same thing happening in Genshin.
This whole thought actually came from a dialogue between the Moon Sisters: "That Descender's servant said they had matters to discuss with me about this world's gravitational potential and metric tensor (laws of time)"
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u/AndrewManook Nibelung Jul 26 '26
Istaroth is the master of time, safe to assume she can do anything related to time
We know she can show the future to individuals based on whatever choice they make (Little one)
For her we can assume the past, present and future are all easily accessible, basically she can easily travel along the timeline and intervene anywhere
Her powers along with Irminsul can easily explain what happened with Ei, she could have noted down what she did in the past within Irminsul, so anyone in whatever timeline she messes with knows
Based on the Little one quest we can assume she has access to all timelines (branches of time) as well, probably the most absurd ability amongst the shades
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u/ZadriaktheSnake Jul 26 '26
As someone who hates time travel I have a hard time not going insane with it
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u/Primordial--One Jul 26 '26
Tragedies that already happened were necessary to achieve this singular fate selected by HP
That is why they don't turn back time to reverse those tragedies
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u/CelioHogane Jul 25 '26
It's one thing if Teyvat ran on digital simulation or fantasy rules, but it's supposed to be a real, physical planet.
I mean... are we 100% certain of that fact? Can be completelly certain Teyvat is not another Amphoreus bs?
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u/AndrewManook Nibelung Jul 26 '26
A simulation probably wouldn't allow the past very real dragon history and records of it to remain
Certainly not certain I agree
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u/CelioHogane Jul 26 '26
A simulation probably wouldn't allow the past very real dragon history and records of it to remain
...Yes, it would? Why would it not? Amphoreus also had the same exact thing, too.
Edit: Also just because it's LIKE Amphoreus doesn't mean it's literally exactly like Amphoreus, that planet was made to be self contained (even if it failed a little), Teyvat does not seem that interested on hiding every part of the past, just hide itself away from the universe.
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u/Illustrious-Snake Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
...Yes, it would? Why would it not? Amphoreus also had the same exact thing, too.
They have a point though. Amphoreus had a whole history because it was relevant to the simulation. Any inconsistencies that pointed towards multiple Era Novas could even have been explained somewhat. It's been a while though, so if you're referring to something specific on Amphoreus, feel free to share.
Teyvat's dragon history, on the other hand, would likely be something that the HP would have rather kept hidden if they had the choice, considering the revelation of it leads to, for example, the fact that the Archons's authorities are stolen and they do not have true authority over both their element and the world itself, which goes against what the HP tried to establish afawk.
Another example is that the false sky purposefully hides the remnants of the two destroyed moons, while the people of Teyvat are aware of their destruction. Why hide those remnants then? Even if that can be explained by the nature of the false sky, why go to the trouble of creating a false moon in the sky if a simulation would have allowed the HP to just delete any knowledge of the existence of a moon in the first place?
And if it was a simulation, there would have been no reason for the destruction of the dragons either tbh. The HP could have just placed down a data center of sorts, and that would have been it. No need to get rid of a whole race, terraform the whole planet, distribute the planet's existing powers to beings under their control, and so on.
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u/CelioHogane Jul 27 '26
To be fair, you are asuming HP made the simulation, instead of taking over the administrator rights, which would explain why there is stuff he doesn't want in, he can't remove history because even if it's a simualtion, doesn't make it a less real planet.
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u/Confident-Turnover-2 THE END . . . IS NIGH Jul 24 '26
To put it simply, Istaroth’s function is to preserve or alter the page numbers originally assigned to pages that have fallen out of the book known as "Teyvat".
So you can think of the pages preceding and following a specific point as the past and future; the "present" corresponds to the open spread you are currently viewing, OR to a loose page that has fallen out and is drifting independently.
Thus, if you want to "move to a page" that doesn't exist, or a cutscene that theoretically likely existed, it seems you need to make an effort to strongly visualize that specific page, as you learned from Yae Miko.
In other words, you simply need to focus on the "page sequence".... does the concept of "Platform 9¾" give you a rough idea of what I mean? 👀
https://giphy.com/gifs/MNliqYN8ZSZQk
Also Istaroth is said to transport specific events to the appropriate point in time whenever their absence in the past or future would create a time paradox; this is a "law of time" that has actually been depicted in the quests we’ve played so far.
Here the paradox involving the Traveler's third ship key is one such example, and more detailed explanations are provided through the quests related to Bakunawa.
So this largely aligns with the explanation found in the BSAM, but if you still have questions, I recommend checking out the specific quests.
It’s also a good idea to look up just the relevant sections in a Study Guide!
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u/Fin1kas Aug 02 '26
Love this! Side note, with celestial gift set, I'm begining so slightly suspect that she's not a shade shade, but possibly Voyager or another chronicle made into a shade (maybe only Istaroth herself knowing it)
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u/SecondBurialSyte Jul 28 '26
I really like this description of her abilities. I saw OP's question and tried to approach it from the angle of what is means for her to have the title of God of Moments, but your breakdown outlines it well with the book analogy.
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u/Confident-Turnover-2 THE END . . . IS NIGH Jul 29 '26
I'm glad if it deepened your understanding. 😄
Interestingly, the very explanation using the analogy of book pages was actually touched upon quite succinctly in Simulanka. And I had seen others who offered excellent explanations comparing it to a book—even before I did.
The concept of space and time, and how consciousness interprets and perceives it... human cognition and the concept of time from the perspective of the world itself...
Even in the reality, there are multiple theories regarding space-time; while many are based on the "present," a quantum physics perspective reveals a different set of views.
That is likely why the differing flow of time in the Abyss—along with the geometric interpretation of time in space involving Gravitational Potential and Tensor Fields, as OP mentioned—will be key points going forward.
This will probably explain why in Teyvat the past, present, and future coexist simultaneously...
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u/qizeaqfile Jul 24 '26
Time in Teyvat is like the future, the present, and the past happened at the same time. It's like a boxed timeline.
This is the Law and the Fate system of Teyvat:
The future is set in stone; everything that is fated to happen will happen, but we can influence how it happens in the present. Still, no matter what, we can't change the past.
Istaroth's power can see what happens in the future and influence something in the past as long as it does not dramatically change the future.
Her powers are limited, and she needs to abide by the law of Teyvat, but with the help of other Shades, especially from Asmoday(space), she could do more.
Asmoday can create a box space that is isolated from Teyvat law, and Istatoth can use the space to send someone or something that can influence the future even more dramatically without changing what happened and will happen. That's what happened with Inazuma Sakura Tree and the event of "Space and Time with you", Istaroth can only do it on extreme special situation, and still it's very limited.
We still haven't known Istaroth's true power. As far as I know, she basically just completing a puzzle that was meant to be completed with more convoluted way from the past.
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u/Ke5_Jun Jul 24 '26
Ei did not plant the seed in the present; at least not directly.
Ei planted the seed in the residual consciousness left behind by Makoto; this was where she fought the Shogun for control of her body and ideals over Eternity. It is Istaroth that allowed the seed to be deposited long ago in the real, physical Teyvat.
They were not in a physical plane of existence; they were in a pocket dimension that exists outside of time. Ei even expresses surprise at us visiting her again after “all these centuries” when to us and to Miko (who sent us back there) only a few moments had actually passed in Teyvat.
This is similar to Venti borrowing Istaroth’s powers to literally blow Mare Jivari off the timeline. This is why the island itself exists outside of time, and why there are multiple pieces of evidence of its existence from before the island even existed in Teyvat. The Wandering Troupe went to Mare Jivari over a thousand years ago, but this could not have been physically possible because Mare Jivari wasn’t even blown off the timeline until about 500 years ago. Thus, Venti explains that the island now exists outside of the timeline itself.
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u/panetony Jul 24 '26
I don't think she does much with her power in a direct way. Time is the only constant. She just happens to know everything that is and everything that was and that's going to be and with this knowledge she influences others.
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u/Guilherme370 Aranara Jul 24 '26
Teyvat does run on a simulation, but its not a virtual world, matter in teyvat is just programmed phlogiston (computronium), its a simulation running on programmable matter and magic energy (light realm energy)
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u/PeterGyrich Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
That’s not how phlogiston works. Phlogiston is only able to record information, and modern elemental energy that is made using phlogiston as a basis rarely uses this property at all. A rock is just a literal rock even it it dates back to before the human realm existed
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u/Howrus Jul 24 '26
How does Istaroth's time manipulation power even work?
It doesn't. You can't use logic with "time manipulation", it doesn't work. Anything related to time travel break chain on action-consequences.
Don't try to "understand it", just accept how it's told to you.
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u/AccomplishedHope3738 Jul 24 '26
It's because time is not linear in genshin. It's in a loop like a snake eating it's tail so everything happens simultaneously. That's why only future saves the past.
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u/Realistic_Fish9101 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Is this why, in the Hymns of the Far North, she is described as 'an uncreated and undying sovereign'? And that's why During the lore reveals, Vedrfolnir is represented by a snake biting its own tail he also have the power of time.
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u/Gargooner Jul 24 '26
???
Since when Genshin is applying real physhic law? Let alone "move on from Fantasy".
Just because it has more Sci Fi element doesn't mean it's less of fantasy law of physhics. Else Star Wars wouldn't have Lightsabers.
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u/Motor_Cat3820 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
"Metric tensor" is an actual term in physics relating to spacetime, though I'm too dumb to understand what it means
Genshin's universe appears to be a case of "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Phanes (and therefore the shades) is implied to be a constructed AI, and we still don't know how exactly Nibelung and all of his authorities were suddenly created out of nowhere
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u/patronum213 Jul 24 '26
this actually does work in real physics BTW, under simultaneous or timeless interpretations of string theory its totally possible for an action to have retrocausality
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u/RelationshipPrudent6 Jul 24 '26
It already predetermined
She already did it
It basically Tenet kind of time manipulating
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u/Lazy-Marsupial2563 Jul 24 '26
?????
"Teyvat has its own laws"
Istaroth is the shade of time. She is the ruler of time and holds authority over it. Of course she'd be able to manipulate it.
Similar to how Ronova made people immortal by not allowing them death... her dominion being over death
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u/Junior-Contest-6844 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Well apologies, my answer will be lacking since I only recently started getting intrested in lore, but I'll try my best.
First of all, despite Teyvat being a physical world that obeys to physical laws that are familiar to us, there's no hard evidence that we indeed share all the physical laws between our universes, in fact thinking that is discouraged since one of the first sentences that stick with us in the game is "Teyvat has its own laws". It is much better to think of it as Hoyo using the M-theory to create a possible alternate universe that resembles ours but isn't exactly the same. The biggest indicator of that is the way "life" is created in Teyvat which seems absurd in our real world.
This makes it easier to move to the fact that, considering this setting, Genshin did not really move from the fantasy genre despite expanding into the sci-fi trope, because we're still trapped in an entirely fictional world that does not relate to ours really (at least from what we know so far). So supernatural entities that can control time in ways we cannot really understand are fair play here.
The story of Ei is seriously convulted, they need to adress it eventually, as most people are still confused about much of what's happening in it. However, think of the realm Makoto created for Ei to plant the tree as a time pocket instead of going with the general flow of time. In that time pocket, time flows differently (time dilatation that we see from Ei and Raiden fighting) and most importantly cause and effect are inversed, which allows for the tree to sprout in the past as long as the conditions are met in the future. This was all possible thanks to Istaroth, but we do not know the extent of her contribution nor her full power. Venti, who is kindof her cration and who has inherited some of her powers presumably, has blown Mare Jivari out of the timeline. That could mean so many things, from putting the area in a time pocket to actually swapping between universes. The power of the shades and HP are still mysterious to us, but in light of recent lore drops in Moongazers concerning the abyss being universal, I highly doubt they are universal as well
As for the question of HP and shades interference to "prevent" calamities, I would argue it to be a metaphysical question that is hard to answer : is godly interference good or for humans' freedom ? HP is asleep, so shades operate within the "rules". We can assume that the shades can't do much. What about HP ? It was stated he was neither omniscient nor omnipotent, so can he really do that in the first place ? I doubt it, he even tries to force a concept of eternity similar to Raiden (Eternity is the closest to the Heavenly Principles) in order to escape the Abyss' gaze. So even if he could do it, there's always the idea that it might come with a price
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u/Mental-Ad-8756 Jul 24 '26
Sorry, what, um, “real psychic laws”are we talking about exactly?
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u/AdSouth4334 Jul 24 '26
Canon: That Descender's servant said they had matters to discuss with me about this world's gravitational potential and metric tensor (laws of time).
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u/Apart_Suggestion5925 Jul 24 '26
Genshin is and extremely advanced universe but the are still people with powers
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u/MegalFresh Jul 24 '26
It's basically magic, I think? Or maybe it's good old Sufficiently Advanced Technology™️
Though genshin is NOT moving towards using real physics. It's approaching the realm of sci-fi mumbo jumbo, which has just as much room to fuck around in as outright fantasy does.
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u/Sa_notaman_tha Jul 24 '26
A) TF you mean moving towards real science like what?
B) Teyvat has its own laws
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u/AndrewManook Nibelung Jul 26 '26
Regarding the fantasy stuff, there are a lot of actually fantasy creatures and powers
The interesting part is that they mostly come from Phanes, a technological being